The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 196

yes we can. he is mentioned, or spoken about at numerous points when he is not around, and events can be editted to suggest they are talking about him when he was there originally.

im not 100% sure if this would work, but it is interesting.

Yoda works as an illustration of what's wrong with the prequels: No story should begin at the beginning. We need inferred past. What was so cool about the OT was all the past that was alluded to - the Clone Wars mention and the Ben/Vader relationship in ep.4; Lando/Han and Yoda/Ben (among other things) in ep.5 - it opened up a space for projecting our ideas and images onto the story.

The PT, on the other hand, ran out of past at once. There is no pull, no space for our imagination, in such a scenario.

The only way the PT could have worked would be if they made up new inferred past. One way this could have happened would have been using Yoda for something interesting, like tying him to the original overthrowing of the last Sith empire. Since that happened thousand generations ago, Yoda isn't old enough, but it could have happened in some other way. If he'd been some kind of war hero who started using the Force against mind controlling Sith (and won, making the Sith go underground), that would have given Yoda a past that was interesting, and a history of the Force type of thing without actually showing everything onscreen.

That way it could have been established that now he's old and almost without powers - which is more interesting than showing a muppet working at the peak of his swashbuckling powers. He fails to see the dangers of the dark side because he's old and weak (giving some much-needed poignancy to the "Failed, I have" line).

Yoda is probably the biggest missed opportunity of the prequels. There were two options: (1) either he should only be mentioned by others as a benign presence (though being physically absent), or (2) he can be a true character, but then he needs a worthwhile story with some inkling of what he's been up to for the last 800 years except being the Republic's lapdog. Both ways could have worked. Instead Lucas thought the third option, the fanservice of just being there and looking stupid (like the Boba Fett of RoTJ), and the belief that this fanservice of using a beloved supporting character as a main character would trump the need for an actual Yoda storyline with actual character motivation.

That's the point, in no way a main character can become a supporting character in the same saga without splitting it in two. And this happens several times, among many other inconsistences. What's more, the used past of the OT now (if you watch the saga in order) looks almost unbelievable... "How's that... no one remembers Yoda (I accept no one knew he was alive), even if the Rebellion seems to be so related to the Jedi? No one asks Luke "hey, are you the son of the great Gral Skywalker??"... No one knows Vader is Anakin?.

Even though I think it'd be cool that some of the adjustments which need to be done to fix this should be actually done in the OT (like making some rebel team mate ask Luke about Anakin, as I said before... because,umh, well, I think it'd add to the spirit of ESB), I hope to see what can be done in the prequels to make them suit the OT universe

vaderios said:

I assume valuable reference is the already uploaded PT scripts so you can see where yoda appears and how these can be out or changed.

That does sound valuable! ;-)

It's a pity the Endor bridge scene couldn't be shifted to take place on the fleet ship.

That way Luke could be looking at a hologram of Anakin Skywalker proving the Alliance do remember the hero of the Clone Wars, prompting Luke to ask Leia about her mother and her memories came from images like the one Luke is looking at and the feelings they evoked in her from The Force.

As it's pretty much impossible I can't see the point of moving the notion over to the wishlist (unless any of you video boffins can figure out a way of doing it).

vaderios said:

Indeed :)

If you consider that most of the members here have not the prequels in their hard drives :)

 

-Angel

I think the Spinal Tap boys had my hard drive in mind when they coined the phrase "shit sandwich."

It could be worse, it could be called Intrapenis De Milo.

theslime said:

Yoda works as an illustration of what's wrong with the prequels: No story should begin at the beginning. We need inferred past. What was so cool about the OT was all the past that was alluded to - the Clone Wars mention and the Ben/Vader relationship in ep.4; Lando/Han and Yoda/Ben (among other things) in ep.5 - it opened up a space for projecting our ideas and images onto the story.

The PT, on the other hand, ran out of past at once. There is no pull, no space for our imagination, in such a scenario.

The only way the PT could have worked would be if they made up new inferred past. One way this could have happened would have been using Yoda for something interesting, like tying him to the original overthrowing of the last Sith empire. Since that happened thousand generations ago, Yoda isn't old enough, but it could have happened in some other way. If he'd been some kind of war hero who started using the Force against mind controlling Sith (and won, making the Sith go underground), that would have given Yoda a past that was interesting, and a history of the Force type of thing without actually showing everything onscreen.

That way it could have been established that now he's old and almost without powers - which is more interesting than showing a muppet working at the peak of his swashbuckling powers. He fails to see the dangers of the dark side because he's old and weak (giving some much-needed poignancy to the "Failed, I have" line).

Yoda is probably the biggest missed opportunity of the prequels. There were two options: (1) either he should only be mentioned by others as a benign presence (though being physically absent), or (2) he can be a true character, but then he needs a worthwhile story with some inkling of what he's been up to for the last 800 years except being the Republic's lapdog. Both ways could have worked. Instead Lucas thought the third option, the fanservice of just being there and looking stupid (like the Boba Fett of RoTJ), and the belief that this fanservice of using a beloved supporting character as a main character would trump the need for an actual Yoda storyline with actual character motivation.

You mentioned an "inferred past" being crucial to the prequels success. I agree and not having Yoda physically present adds to that past and mythical quality.

All Yoda in the prequels accomplished was establishing him as this great lightsaber warrior(hmm...he seemed to be almost against that crap in ESB) and that ILM could create Yoda in CG, albeit not as well as the muppet makers.

EDIT:

Your suggestion of a Yoda history or past for the prequels reminds me of discussions on message boards many of us had about Sidious. I actually thought(hoped actually) Sidious would be some ancient nemesis of Yoda who had resurfaced during the time of the prequels to exact "revenge" against Yoda and the jedi.

I mean the duel between Palpious and Yoda in RotS would then have some deeper meaning. it would be an ancient rematch.

And then there's the "sith have been extinct for a millenium".

Maybe Yoda was a part of that. He sure as hell knew about the rule of two pretty well at the end of TPM and how the hell did he know that if the sith were extinct?

He didn't presume it was the other Jedi who seemed certain of it.

Sometime back I was helping SSWR with a concept for a scene in the Temple, Qui-Gon has to speak to the Council so  Anakin joins the novices for a tour of the building given by an ancient human Jedi Master.

He explains that the Sith once ruled the Galaxy from the Temple which was then their battle fortress and the first Jedi were rebels who infiltrated the fortress and learned about the Force from the Sith but tried to use only the Lightside to defeat them by spreading rumours to make them fight and kill each other.

There was a prophecy that a chosen one would come to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith but the Sith were destroyed and the chosen one was never found.

Anakin has the same sense of cold deja vu about the temple that Luke later has for the cave and the Master explains that the building is still strong in the Darkside (because terrible things were done there and the building is still hungry for blood and pain) the Jedi use this to remind them where darkness can take them but Anakin is not happy with the explanation.

A scene like that would have given the PT a whole new backstory of it's own, but it would mean replacing Jake Lloyd in practically every scene he is in.

Bingowings said:

He didn't presume it was the other Jedi who seemed certain of it.

No Yoda knows with certainty about the rule of two. "Only two there are. No more no less."

Yet how does he even know this if the sith were extinct or even hiding for a millenium?

Did he get an anonymous email from a "thard eban"?.

I mean really how the hell does he figure it out?

edit: bingo, that expository scene in the temple would've been so much better. Actually, you could also do it with Jake's "excuse me Qui-Gon what are midis" speech too.

Imagine your temple master played by the one and only Chris Lee as Dooku.

"There can be no doubt that the mysterious warrior was a Sith" 

How they figured it out was unimportant to whoever wrote the script.  The important thing is that Yoda and Mace had enough plot exposition to show that the ideas of the Jedi had changed and they knew the Sith had returned.

The idea I had was that by having Qui-Gon announce he has found the chosen one it sets self doubt and panic within the Jedi council.

For a thousand years they have assumed the Sith to be extinct but if the chosen one exists they must still exist for him to destroy and what does bringing balance to the Force mean?

Two Sith and thousands of Jedi, where once there were thousands of Sith and no Jedi...oh dear (you can see why this chosen one would not be a welcomed savior).

That's right, but it's the prequels you know. The Republic seems to be set to be overthown, the Jedi are set to be almost blind.

That's true. Unfortunately that is a really bad idea for a story. What's also true is that I doubt this extreme blindness was what the creator actually wanted to convey.

I like the backstory ideas. The films desperately needed something like this.

Bingowings said:

The idea I had was that by having Qui-Gon announce he has found the chosen one it sets self doubt and panic within the Jedi council.

For a thousand years they have assumed the Sith to be extinct but if the chosen one exists they must still exist for him to destroy and what does bringing balance to the Force mean?

Two Sith and thousands of Jedi, where once there were thousands of Sith and no Jedi...oh dear (you can see why this chosen one would not be a welcomed savior).

Well those are all questions that were not answered until RotS, if at all.

There were many points of story that Lucas ditched and didn't seem to follow through on.

An explanation of what the chosen one is, what balance means, and who the sith are and why they want revenge would certainly make the story better, especially the sith.

They need more back story and motivation.

Mithrandir said:

That's the point, in no way a main character can become a supporting character in the same saga without splitting it in two. And this happens several times, among many other inconsistences. What's more, the used past of the OT now (if you watch the saga in order) looks almost unbelievable... "How's that... no one remembers Yoda (I accept no one knew he was alive), even if the Rebellion seems to be so related to the Jedi? No one asks Luke "hey, are you the son of the great Gral Skywalker??"... No one knows Vader is Anakin?.

Even though I think it'd be cool that some of the adjustments which need to be done to fix this should be actually done in the OT (like making some rebel team mate ask Luke about Anakin, as I said before... because,umh, well, I think it'd add to the spirit of ESB), I hope to see what can be done in the prequels to make them suit the OT universe

This got me thinking about the unlikelihood of luke having anakin's surname name and noone paying it any attention, despite after the events of the prequels he must be pretty infamous.

Perhaps it would have been better if he had originally been named Anakin Vader before the council gave him the jedi name 'Anakin Skywalker' as a mark of his new life (like being forbidden to see his mother) Maybe 'skywalker' would even be a secret name known only within the jedi order although this may be a stretch too far.

being given the title of Darth Vader not only has historical relevance (otherwise where does vader come from, apart from sounding cool?) but it is a mark of him abandoning the jedi way

Making Vader hate and resent the name of Skywalker may have led him to destroy all historical records of the name and then luke has nothing to fear being called skywalker as there are no records of him and the only person with a real connection to the name has no intention of going back to tatooine. (it also would have been nice if, after his mother's death the prequels had firmly established this was the case, so there is reason luke would be safe there)

I'm liking the idea that Vader actually knows about Luke, or at least knows he's alive somewhere and that destiny will eventually lead Luke to confront his father. But Vader wants this so he can try and lure Luke to the darkside ala ESB.

But Vader shields Luke from Palpious so he can use his son against the emps at some later time.

It explains why Luke is on Tatooine and Vader never bothered to look into a Tatooine phone book under Skywalker.

He already knew he was there. But was waiting until the right time when his son would confront him and then he could try and lure him to the darkside in ESB. Then he would be powerful and also capable of helping defeat the emperor. Then they could rule the galaxy as father and son.

And if you look at the existing films, there is a point where Vader says Obi-Wan was hiding Leia. But at no point does he say the same about Luke. In fact, Vader seems to know a bit about his upbringing.

It also plays deeper into Vader's own desire for power and control that he mentions in the PT.

So maybe Vader was actually shielding his son from the emperor until post-ANH when the secret was out in the open. That's when the emperor says he have a "new" enemy.

fishmanlee said:

but then why wouldnt he say: "the force is strong with my son" instead of "the force is strong with this one" during the yavin battle?

For the simple reason that at the time of the release of SW, Vader did not = Luke's father.