SW Episode III - Reign of the Dark Side (* unfinished project *) — Page 38

Coov said:

His turn, I think, should be equally based off of the "power" he would gain rather than just saving Padme.  He always cried about being held back... here is an opportunity where he can be fully appreciated, and moulded into who he has always wanted to be.

 Remember Anakin's turn must be believable, as well as his return must. Don't agree with you, there must be a love related reason, since someone who fell because of love can be redeemed, but someone who fel because he was an ass can't. Still, Vader must turn into an evil character, for we must also believe that Anakin could become in the ESB's Vader.

This is not just the PT tragedy's fault, but also for the OT stuff. Could someone who's just seen ESB actually believe cold, twisted, evil Darth Vader can be redeemed?

Anakin/Vader's treatment along the saga is pretty a delicate thing that was certainly uncared by GL.

You're right - Anakin's turn must be believable, it's key to the film working... which is why for me the whole scene of Anakin one minute being a conflicted Jedi, the next going off and murdering a load of kids is the real problem. It's totally unbelievable. If Palpatine instead tells him to go to Mustafar to kill the Separatist leaders - well that I can believe Anakin would do.

Lucas was tinkering with the 'turn' until the last minute, but he missed the real problem: the idea of Anakin killing those kids is ridiculous.

My point is to make Anakin not a very convinced person of what he's doing while he slaughters all the Jedi. He's pushed to do it, for a major reason, Padme. That bullshit of Anakin with yellow eyes when he kills the children is absurd. What is he mad at?? Besides a Vader non suited would imply some people to know that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader... when this must be a secret to the galaxy. I think, what'd be best, is to replace Anakin and the troups entering the Jedi building in Coruscant, by a suited Vader doing so, at the end of the movie. This woul imply of course a whole re plot in some points...

I get that the reason for Anakin killing the Jedi kids is to get the dark side power to save Padme - I just don't BELIEVE he would do it. He's conflicted, confused etc, but it's one giant frackin' leap to child murderer (and no, it's not comparable to killing the sand people, which was done in spur-of-the-moment blind rage)

Again, it all feels too abrupt: one minute he's a Jedi with doubts, then two minutes later he thinks all the Jedi are evil? Enough so to kill a load of kids? It needs to be more gradual. And it should only be after he's been screwed up by the fight with Obi Wan and is told he's killed Padme that he finally becomes totally 'evil'.

Maybe it's just me but him killing the Jedi kids is a deal breaker - it's the moment I no longer believe what I'm watching. Instead of genuine character development it feels like the plot cogs clumsily turning.

If you look at Star Wars as myth, and then compare it to other stories, there are several instances throughout mythology of heroes slaughtering children (Herakles murdering his own children, Atreus killing and then feeding his nephews to his unknowing brother, Sigmund killing his unworthy nephews at his sister's demand, etc).

While I wouldn't go so far as to say this is a universal mythological motif, that every hero must encounter, it is present, and something the hero deals with, either to continuous downfall to oblivion, or to redemption (Herakles did it with his 12 labours, Anakin did with being a miserable cyborg for 25 years).  

He never tries to achieve those dark side powers, he just receives the promise that he will. So no, killing children isn't a way to increase his dark side powers, is just a non sense attempt of showing a pissed off Anakin...

I think Anakin should kill Windu, or at least be passive in that aspect, then accept Palpatine's help as he's done things that he knows would have no return in the Order, so stays there with Palp, always with the hope of saving Padme. So he gets sent to Mustafar, and kills everybody... but the spirit should be he's doing it without anger, a feeling of a constricted person. Then fights Obi, gets chopped and Vadered up, he is told that all he's been through was pointless, and get this angry, lonely, condemned villain, move by the hate of himself... goes and wipes out the younglings... End of the movie (?).

That's why I suggested that the Vader persona starts off as a shadowy fugue state figure.

When he slaughters the sand people he does it out of genuine diminished sanity this could be the birth point of Vader (which Anakin has nightmares about) the child killing could be something he does but blanks out and only remembers it after he has killed Mace.

That would be enough to push him over the edge.

It would mean having to shift the Temple raid scenes around so Vader kills Jedi before killing Mace.

Having Vader kill the sandchildren also lets Padme off the hook for her inconsistent response to the raid on the temple (as at that point neither she or Anakin knew that he did it).

I keep hearing it's a giant leap for Anakin to kill kids.... No it isn't.... He did already.... He killed innocent women and children in AOTC... It's not leap.... He's been in the dark side already. He's been freaking saturated in the dark side like a pig sitting in it's own feces. But that sucks too for the plot. We wanted to see a fall, and Anakin is on his face in the first scene. Brilliant.

It's a giant leap because one thing is to see an angry Anakin killin people, and another thing is to be rather confused, but still a good person, and the second later you are bad bad bad because someone told you to be so, and you kill people because you're angry with noone, and someone told you to do it.

Killing children is not a giant leap. The giant leap is turning a doubting guy to a deliverate assasin in just five minutes of movie because he's been brain washed

Hey Bob, are you planning any changes for the soundtrack during the Mustafar duel? Battle of the Heroes is good, but it'd be a nice break from constant over the top bombastic score to let the sabers and dynamic soundscape of the volcanic planet come to the fore....  

Could some scenes be rearranged to make Anakin's turn a bit more gradual?

Imply, but don't show Anakin killing the Sandpeople, and don't have him confess it to Padme. That might make him a bit more of complex character, and might add an extra layer to his quest against death (wanting to help out his clone wingman in the battle, hesitating to, and regretting killing Dooku, not wanting to leave Obi-Wan behind, trying so save Padme): he's doing it out of guilt.

Then in ROTS, Anakin watches Palpatine kill Windu, but doesn't actually take a part in it. He sides with Palpatine and is sent to Mustafar to kill the Separatists. The Separatists have been the bad guys the entire trilogy so Anakin killing them would still be his first dark deed as a Sith Lord, but still be somewhat ambiguous.Then the fight with Obi-Wan takes place and Anakin is injured.

When he wakes up, Palpatine tells him he has lost everything, and that's when the true Jedi hunt (Order 66 and the raid on the Temple start).Maybe those scenes could be the climax of the movie.

I'm not really sure how and if it would work, but I think it might make Anakin's turn a bit more gradual and layered.

Remove Anakin's yellow eyes in Mustafar excepts perhaps till the duel with Obi. Besides makin the fall of Anakin more believable, it'd make the movie more progressive

SilverKey said:

Could some scenes be rearranged to make Anakin's turn a bit more gradual?

Imply, but don't show Anakin killing the Sandpeople, and don't have him confess it to Padme. That might make him a bit more of complex character, and might add an extra layer to his quest against death (wanting to help out his clone wingman in the battle, hesitating to, and regretting killing Dooku, not wanting to leave Obi-Wan behind, trying so save Padme): he's doing it out of guilt.

Then in ROTS, Anakin watches Palpatine kill Windu, but doesn't actually take a part in it. He sides with Palpatine and is sent to Mustafar to kill the Separatists. The Separatists have been the bad guys the entire trilogy so Anakin killing them would still be his first dark deed as a Sith Lord, but still be somewhat ambiguous.Then the fight with Obi-Wan takes place and Anakin is injured.

When he wakes up, Palpatine tells him he has lost everything, and that's when the true Jedi hunt (Order 66 and the raid on the Temple start).Maybe those scenes could be the climax of the movie.

I'm not really sure how and if it would work, but I think it might make Anakin's turn a bit more gradual and layered.

I really like this idea.  Vader would be suited when he raids the temple.  His anger with himself after his injuries would make this scene more believable.  Someone made a mock up of this, but I don't remember who.  Seeing the suited Vader enter the temple would be a spine-chilling moment and be more reminiscent of what I thought of when Ben tells Luke of Vader hunting down the Jedi.

mrbenja0618 said:

"I keep hearing it's a giant leap for Anakin to kill kids.... No it isn't.... He did already.... He killed innocent women and children in AOTC... It's not leap.... He's been in the dark side already. He's been freaking saturated in the dark side like a pig sitting in it's own feces. But that sucks too for the plot. We wanted to see a fall, and Anakin is on his face in the first scene. Brilliant."

It's a huge difference: between a moment of out of control rage and grief immediately after his mother's death... and a clinical decision taken to walk through the streets of Coruscant, enter the Jedi Temple and murder all the kids there. How you can't see there is a WORLD of difference is bewildering.

It's not the fact that he had killed kids, it's the reasoning behind it.

The Tuskens were killed in a blind rage, which he was remorseful for almost straight away.  He killed the younglings in calculated cold blood under instructions from Palpatine only moments after he had informed Mace Windu that Palpatine was the bad guy.  Remember that Anakin was still on Mace's side.  He only reacted to thinking Palpatine was going to be killed (and lose info on keeping Padme alive).

He went from a confused kid to the Terminator in an instant.

I don't know if the dialogue in AOTC could be altered to say he dreamt of killing the sand children and that he was angry at himself for even dreaming it (something to which Padme's response would be more believable).

But then when he has killed Mace in ROTS the line from the Dooku duel where Palpatine tells him he has done it before could be shifted in there and he could visualise actually killing them "What have I done".

Add that to Vader in his suit killing the younglings and you have a much more believable turn.

I like the idea of Anakin dreaming (fantasising) about killing the sand peple.

This is off the top of my head, and probably crazy: what about if he thinks he dreamt it - due to Palpatine's dark side powers combined with Anakin's subconscious suppressing it - and right after Anakin kills Mace, Palpatine lets the truth hits him: that's he's a mass murderer. You could then add a montage showing Anakin feeling the pain he inflicted on the sand people, followed by Anakin's "What have I done?"