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GOUT image stabilization - Released — Page 37

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That was the thread of which I was thinking.  I searched for it for ages, but Frink is right: the search function is awful.  I can never make it return the desired results, even when I search for subjects that I know we have discussed at length. 

The last comparison definitely shows that the PAL is better in terms of detail.  I definitely think that the ROTJ script should be written for the PAL GOUT.

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 (Edited)

http://aptirrelevance.com/otscreenshots/index.php has screenshots for comparison which include PAL & NTSC GOUT, but that is ANH only.

The gist of the other thread is that ROTJ is probably slightly improved in PAL vs NTSC, but not ANH and ESB.  The reason is unclear.

Also be aware, the PAL DVDs seem to be cropped more (in ANH and ESB, just differently in ROTJ).

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Are-the-PAL-GOUT-DVDs-upscaled-from-the-NTSC-masters/topic/6531/

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/GOUT-improved-versions/topic/11377/

Dr. M

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 (Edited)

Chewtobacca said:

 

The last comparison definitely shows that the PAL is better in terms of detail.  I definitely think that the ROTJ script should be written for the PAL GOUT.

But you must have missed it, g-force only has the NTSC versions, so those will work, either way the finished product is going to look a TON better than the retail GOUT.

I guess we could convert our PAL version of Jedi to NTSC and then use it instead, if we wanted to do the extra work.

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dark_jedi said:

But you must have missed it, g-force only has the NTSC versions, so those will work, either way the finished product is going to look a TON better than the retail GOUT.

No; I didn't miss it.  I am sure there is some way we could "enable" G-Force to work with the PAL ROTJ.

dark_jedi said:

I guess we could convert our PAL version of Jedi to NTSC and then use it instead, if we wanted to do the extra work.

That was my suggestion as well. :-)

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 (Edited)

Having compared more what is available, I will make this completely uninformed statement:

The PAL GOUT discs of ANH and ESB were cropped and zoomed when being transferred from the master, removing any advantage PAL might have had in preserving detail.

ROTJ is cropped more at the top but LESS at the bottom allowing it to retain a few more lines of resolution than the NTSC disc.  Probably still the same master though.

And one piece of wild speculation: The master used in both versions probably contains MORE detail than is apparent on the DVDs. 

I'm starting to wonder if it was intentionally reformatted to letterboxed to reduce detail (and in hopes of a resell in anamorphic later should the inital release go well enough).

The PAL ROTJ would suggest that (since if you used the same NTSC master, there would be no more detail (or lines when formatting) to gain.)

Edit: Although a less conspiracy minded answer might be that some nitwit just overcropped the NTSC ROTJ during tansfer.

Dr. M

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doubleofive said:

 

JediTray said:


Oh.
Yeah, I feel the same way as I don't understand any of the scripting they do, but we'll see the results in other preservation attempts.

 

I'm not sure if you guys are already aware of this, but Oldschooljedi created a step-by-step process for applying  g-force's script to the GOUT.  It's available in the "How-To's and Technical Discussions" thread here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Guide-to-convert-the-GOUT-DVD-from-4-3-to-16-9-using-freeware-tools/topic/9854/

Like you, I have veeeerrrry little idea what any of this means or what it does, but I've partially encoded ANH with the help of this tutorial and the results are indeed quite good.  But beware: if you are using an older computer (as I currently am), the encoding process takes forever (it takes me about a week to encode, or at least it would, if my computer didn't consistently crash on day 6).

The alternative to doing this yourself is to wait for dark_jedi to finish his work on the entire OT.  His current results can be seen here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Trilogy-Projects-GOUT-sourced/post/429485/#TopicPost429485

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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vbangle said:

G-Force, is there anything you can share with us about your progress on the V3 ROTJ script? What are some of the time consuming tasks in tweaking your script for ROTJ that's different from the other two movies scripts?

You know, the most time consuming thing is really the convolution (deringing) filter. Painful really, getting rid of ringing without loosing too much sharpness. I suppose if I was working with that PAL version, I wouldn't even bother, as the ringing seems really low judging by the pics from the other thread. Then it's just a matter of getting the resizing and cropping right. Everything else in the script should just work, except the subtitles may need to be shifted by a few frames depending on if the PAL and NTSC are in sync or not.

-G

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Probably a stupid question, but did you try dgdecod with the cpu > 4?

I've had pretty good success and it's fairly fast.

cpu: 0 to 6 (default: 0)
Post-Processing Quickset Options.
(Y=luma, C=chroma, H=horizontal, V=vertical)

- 0: DISABLE POST-PROCESSING
- 1: DEBLOCK_Y_H
- 2: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V
- 3: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H
- 4: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H, DEBLOCK_C_V
- 5: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H, DEBLOCK_C_V, DERING_Y
- 6: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H, DEBLOCK_C_V, DERING_Y, DERING_C

You can use cpu2 if you want to disable/enable specific options (such as the strong deblocking).

Dr. M

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Doctor M said:

Probably a stupid question, but did you try dgdecod with the cpu > 4?

I've had pretty good success and it's fairly fast.

cpu: 0 to 6 (default: 0)
Post-Processing Quickset Options.
(Y=luma, C=chroma, H=horizontal, V=vertical)

- 0: DISABLE POST-PROCESSING
- 1: DEBLOCK_Y_H
- 2: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V
- 3: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H
- 4: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H, DEBLOCK_C_V
- 5: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H, DEBLOCK_C_V, DERING_Y
- 6: DEBLOCK_Y_H, DEBLOCK_Y_V, DEBLOCK_C_H, DEBLOCK_C_V, DERING_Y, DERING_C

You can use cpu2 if you want to disable/enable specific options (such as the strong deblocking).

Yes. the Deblocking in dgdecode in not necessary on these sources, and the de-ringing is not very effective and blurs quite a bit.

-G

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g-force said:  You know, the most time consuming thing is really the convolution (deringing) filter. Painful really, getting rid of ringing without loosing too much sharpness. I suppose if I was working with that PAL version, I wouldn't even bother, as the ringing seems really low judging by the pics from the other thread.

That might mean that a ROTJ script based on the PAL GOUT would be less time consuming to write.  This would ease the burden on you somewhat.

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One more suggestion: fft3dfilter includes a dering filter... and fft3dgpu is mod of it that offloads the work to video hardware.

Could improve performance by quite a bit since that would offload 2 steps to the gpu.

Dr. M

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Doctor M said:

One more suggestion: fft3dfilter includes a dering filter...

Too bad it doesn't work with our source either.

-G

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 (Edited)

Hey, just a quick OT thank you.

I was working on another project today and the source had some unpleasant aliasing.  I remembered a line in this script about it:

########## anti-alias
NNEDI2(dh=true, field=0)
NNEDI2(dh=false,field=1)

I've never seen that done before, I'm not sure HOW it works, but it does a beautiful job.  Thanks.

Dr. M

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 (Edited)

Doctor M said:

Hey, just a quick OT thank you.

I was working on another project today and the source had some unpleasant aliasing.  I remembered a line in this script about it:

[code]########## anti-alias
NNEDI2(dh=true, field=0)
NNEDI2(dh=false,field=1)[/code]

I've never seen that done before, I'm not sure HOW it works, but it does a beautiful job.

Thanks.

 I'm glad it's useful even outside of the GOUT sources. You may not like the answer on how it works, but here goes anyway:

1. neural-network interpolate a line in between every line of resolution.

2. throw away all original lines and neural-network interpolate every line in between the first interpolated lines.

3. the next step that you didn't include is to resize back to original height.

That's right, there are absolutely no original lines of resolution remaining from the source. They are all interpolated. Kinda scarey I know, but it works amazingly well, doesn't it?

-G

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That is scary.  So in effect we improve the GOUT by dispensing with the GOUT!

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Chewtobacca said:

That is scary.  So in effect we improve the GOUT by dispensing with the GOUT!

 Good way to put it!

-G

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 (Edited)

I recall a lot of discussion awhile back about some interlace artifacts remaining in the GOUT transfer.  A lot of filters were tossed around as being useful, but what is available has improved.

I don't see a specific filter being used for cleaning that, and they are probably removed as a by-product of something else (probably the anti-aliasing), but I'd like to suggest one more thing:

TFM(pp=2,clip2=TempGaussMC_beta2(edimode="nnedi2").SelectEven)

TempGaussMC with nnedi2 will bring most computers to their knees (I think I can render 1 frame every 30 seconds with it), but TempGaussMC turns on ONLY when TFM decides a frame has interlace artifacts.  The rest of the time it does nothing.

Image quality is pretty much a perfect extrapolation for these frames.

 

Dr. M

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g-force I know I asked you this a while back but I was wondering are you making any headway on the Jedi script or are you running into issues? I am curious to know if we might be able to get this bad boy set out by the Holidays is all, I am still currently working on the '97 SE v2 set now and probably have at least a couple weeks left before these are done, then I will have all my time on the v3 SW and ESB, then onto Jedi when ready.

Thanks

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dark_jedi said:

g-force I know I asked you this a while back but I was wondering are you making any headway on the Jedi script or are you running into issues? I am curious to know if we might be able to get this bad boy set out by the Holidays is all, I am still currently working on the '97 SE v2 set now and probably have at least a couple weeks left before these are done, then I will have all my time on the v3 SW and ESB, then onto Jedi when ready.

Thanks

 With what I just learned about the PAL version, I am having difficulty finding the motivation to move forward with the NTSC version. This will have to wait until I get a PAL copy.

-G

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g-force said:

Doctor M said:

Hey, just a quick OT thank you.

I was working on another project today and the source had some unpleasant aliasing.  I remembered a line in this script about it:

[code]########## anti-alias
NNEDI2(dh=true, field=0)
NNEDI2(dh=false,field=1)[/code]

I've never seen that done before, I'm not sure HOW it works, but it does a beautiful job.

Thanks.

 I'm glad it's useful even outside of the GOUT sources. You may not like the answer on how it works, but here goes anyway:

1. neural-network interpolate a line in between every line of resolution.

2. throw away all original lines and neural-network interpolate every line in between the first interpolated lines.

3. the next step that you didn't include is to resize back to original height.

That's right, there are absolutely no original lines of resolution remaining from the source. They are all interpolated. Kinda scarey I know, but it works amazingly well, doesn't it?

-G

Haha, this is pretty awesome. I'm amazed at how advanced fan-based coding is becoming. I wonder how long until someone builds a freeware code to do the sort of dirt-replacement algoirthms that Lowry uses. In principle it doesn't seem like it is impossibly complicated...

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 (Edited)

g-force said:

 With what I just learned about the PAL version, I am having difficulty finding the motivation to move forward with the NTSC version. This will have to wait until I get a PAL copy.

-G

 Oh no!  I'm an NTSC guy, please don't quit!  :)

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JediTray, G-Force is talking about using the PAL version because it is of higher quality.  A conversion to NTSC could be built into the script, so an NTSC release would still be made; it is just that the source would be PAL.

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CompMovieGuy said:

I think I would rather IVTC in AVS then use DGIndex's Force Film since its very hit n miss. Although I have never tried it on the GOUT so it could work well in that instance.

 

You're completely right. It totally depends on source if DGIndex's Force Film works well or not. I've found it so unreliable that I gave up on it and since then I use manual IVTC (Decomb) which works damn fine.

 

I disagree with Doctor M, I don't know why you let yourself talk round so easily when you was so certain about it.

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Not everyone has the pal source to start with though.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…