Couple of things caught my eye. Apologies to doubleofive for borrowing his excellent SE comparison pictures.
In both these shots, a digital matte of the city has been added to the background. However, the reflections on the floor continue to reflect the GOUT backgrounds.
I realize this'd be tricky to fix, but I thought I'd ask.
I don't know about the second one, but the first one has already been taken care of. See the comparison pictures in the first post.
So it has. Must have missed that.
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that...
In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"
That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg
Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!
Whaaat? I didn't mention Hitler, what are you talking about? I wanted to point out that sci-fi inspires real historical events, or meanings. Are you speaking in Newspeak?It's history, bro. Tiger tank not equal to hitler. Anyway its a russan military article, so I don't get it.
Godwin's lay just states that the longer a conversation goes the more likely some kind of WWII comparison will be made and Tiger tanks were used by the Germans in WW2. Or maybe I just made that part up... ah well. Either way, I just wanted to bring up Godwin's law cos I think it's funny. ^^
The impossible is what Rogues do best...
About doubleofive's comparison pix, I really like the 2004 enhancements. They make Cloud City look less constricted and more pretty.
Cleopatra said:
About doubleofive's comparison pix, I really like the 2004 enhancements. They make Cloud City look less constricted and more pretty.
Get out.
Kidding. ;)
xhonzi said:
You and Ady seem to agree that you don't think there is an onscreen contradiction, but you don't need to poo-poo the people that do.
You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained...
This is true. It really is stupid to devise a walking tank that only shoots forward. It's even more stupid to attack that tank from the front. HigHurtenflurst is right, I guess it's best to just not overthink it.
Mmm... I just disagreed that the speeders carry bombs and they don't. This "poo poo" you mention, lol... So rigging a torpedo launcher on to the snowspeeder wouldn't confuse more people than would help? Cos if they had something of that type of ordinance on the snowspeeders, why not just use that from the start of the battle? Thus leading to me thinking it's adding something for the sake of adding something... If you're gonna make the suggestions then prepare to have flaws poked in the reasoning. I expect no less from my own suggestions to be scrutinized, aka this "poo poo". =D
Speaking of which: look at the footage from ESB there are two Rebel soldiers running toward the walker. Why? Other than fodder for AT-AT gunners what do the Rebel trench soliders do? Thus a shot from behind of a couple of Rebel solider firing a concussion missle or something similar at the downed walker while the snowspeeder makes it's attack run makes it more devastating and not just "too strong from blasters".
However, Ady's reasoning was even simpler: when the walker falls the neck gets breached and they aimed for that. I suppose when the walker hits maybe the neck could show a lil more damage. A spark or crack... That would be a simple add relatively...
Yeah... a tank with only a forward arc. Wonder if there could be a correction for this.
The impossible is what Rogues do best...
I think the biggest bugaboo is the rebels getting out of the trench to charge an exploding AT-AT and getting themselves killed from the shockwave and debris (though the explosion is still cool - and yeah, I always figured the crash damaged the armor around the neck - still would like to see some shooting form the roof windows to add some life to the model).
I have no idea how this can make any sense - I understand keeping the "snowspeeder shooting the AT-AT to pieces" scene, but what about the "C'mon!" and the troops get out of the trenches with the snowspeeders overhead? Could that shot be replaced by rebels simply cheering in the trenches (and staying under cover) with snowspeeders flying overhead?
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
Ripplin said:
Get out.
Kidding. ;)
Well, I only say that because I don't think Ady is keeping all of the new enhancements. If I remember the ESB preview trailer correctly, I think some of the original backgrounds have been replaced.
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that...
In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"
That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg
Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!
Whaaat? I didn't mention Hitler, what are you talking about? I wanted to point out that sci-fi inspires real historical events, or meanings. Are you speaking in Newspeak?It's history, bro. Tiger tank not equal to hitler. Anyway its a russan military article, so I don't get it.
Godwin's lay just states that the longer a conversation goes the more likely some kind of WWII comparison will be made and Tiger tanks were used by the Germans in WW2. Or maybe I just made that part up... ah well. Either way, I just wanted to bring up Godwin's law cos I think it's funny. ^^
Am I committed a thoughtcrime? lol The Tiger is a war machine, not ww2, or nazis. Anyway I sent a PM.
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that...
In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"
That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg
Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!
Whaaat? I didn't mention Hitler, what are you talking about? I wanted to point out that sci-fi inspires real historical events, or meanings. Are you speaking in Newspeak?It's history, bro. Tiger tank not equal to hitler. Anyway its a russan military article, so I don't get it.
Godwin's lay just states that the longer a conversation goes the more likely some kind of WWII comparison will be made and Tiger tanks were used by the Germans in WW2. Or maybe I just made that part up... ah well. Either way, I just wanted to bring up Godwin's law cos I think it's funny. ^^
Am I committed a thoughtcrime? lol The Tiger is a war machine, not ww2, or nazis. Anyway I sent a PM.
The tiger tank was a machine of war used in WWII by the Nazis... It was also used as a comparison for a topic that was getting rather lengthy and thus Godwin's Law just stats the longer a conversation goes concerning a controversial topic the more likely it is that a comparison to something from Nazi Germany comes up. I just think it's funny when it does happen, in what ever form it appears, albeilt distant. ^^
The impossible is what Rogues do best...
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
Handzzz said:
Rogue Leader said:
There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that...
In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"
That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg
Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!
Whaaat? I didn't mention Hitler, what are you talking about? I wanted to point out that sci-fi inspires real historical events, or meanings. Are you speaking in Newspeak?It's history, bro. Tiger tank not equal to hitler. Anyway its a russan military article, so I don't get it.
Godwin's lay just states that the longer a conversation goes the more likely some kind of WWII comparison will be made and Tiger tanks were used by the Germans in WW2. Or maybe I just made that part up... ah well. Either way, I just wanted to bring up Godwin's law cos I think it's funny. ^^
Am I committed a thoughtcrime? lol The Tiger is a war machine, not ww2, or nazis. Anyway I sent a PM.
The tiger tank was a machine of war used in WWII by the Nazis... It was also used as a comparison for a topic that was getting rather lengthy and thus Godwin's Law just stats the longer a conversation goes concerning a controversial topic the more likely it is that a comparison to something from Nazi Germany comes up. I just think it's funny when it does happen, in what ever form it appears, albeilt distant. ^^
Never mind... Anyways, how drastically will change ady the battle of Hoth? Will be like in EP4 Revisited endbattle? Its awesome that is but I can't imagine how awesome would be. Interesting conversations happens here, just curious. :)
Godwin's Law is only evoked when a postee complains that the tone of the conversation has become (in their opinion) worthy of comparison with Nazi Germany (not what's going on here).
It would be almost impossible to talk about Star Wars without mentioning WW2 seeing as so much of the Empire and the general feel of the battles were based on WW2 movies.
It is a real shame to read about the ESB AT-ST going.
The design of that version is much better in my opinion than the one shown in ROTJ and as a child it was my favorite moment in the Hoth battle. Cutting them altogether would be like losing the spinning TIE from the asteroid sequence.
Seeing that different walker made the walker attack seem more exotic and realistic (like the Empire had lots of different types of walker for different jobs).
There are only two shots with it in though (it doesn't really need to be in the shot with Luke on the ground), it looks like the same element repeated anyway.
Maybe adding a few really subtle distant elements (almost silhouettes) to establish their presence on the battlefield and leave the one close up shot to let us know what they look, like would work?
As always Ady it's your baby and your call.
^This. I'm all for removing the current shots as the height of the AT-STs compared to the AT-ATs just makes no sense, however I'd love it if Ady could insert them elsewhere instead. Even if it's really subtle :)
Having said that, ROTJ is always accused of recycling stuff from the previous movies. This way, the AT-ST becomes its own baby, rather than borrowed as it were.
Cleopatra said:
Ripplin said:
Get out.
Kidding. ;)
Well, I only say that because I don't think Ady is keeping all of the new enhancements. If I remember the ESB preview trailer correctly, I think some of the original backgrounds have been replaced.
Star Wars Revisited Wordpress
Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress
There is already a very different dynamic to the ground battles in ESB and ROTJ.
In ROTJ the AT-STs are used as the primary ground assault vehicle and the speeder bikes are used as scouts in a crowded obstacle filled environment against ground troops and teddy bears.
In ESB the AT-STs are the scouts to the AT-ATs on a open battlefield against mostly air assault.
If the Endor ground followed the same arrangement it would be more of the same but with added obstacles (not that I wouldn't love to see a single AT-AT pushing trees aside like something out of a Ray Harryhausen movie but that's for another thread).
Having each film introduce a new craft has never been a fetish of mine but the TIE interceptor is there for those who want it.
Naturally different situations would call for different craft to be used.
X-Wings Vs TIEs over the snow might have been cheaper and easier to do for ESB but would not have been anywhere near as cool and using space fighters over a planetary terrain seems a little odd.
The additional glimpse of an exotic other walker was one of the gasp moments of my first viewing of ESB (I turned 40 recently but I remember the first viewing of this film really well).
I thought it was a great touch that had bothered to throw in another type of walker in there, it looked so distinctive but also looked like it came from the same school of thought that gave birth to the larger version.
If that feature can be made to work better I'd prefer it to be there somewhere than to lose it all together.
But I say again it's not my call to make.
adywan said:
Nerfherder said:
When the walker first collapses and the head hits the snow hard (perhaps an extra sound effect to reinforce the damage thats been done?) can you not instead show some energy 'sparks' around the entire head area (similar to force lightning) and this energy rapidly spreads to the main body which goes up with the aid of the snowspeeders firing upon it?
You're sort of close to what i have done to that shot , but i won't be saying what i have done until the film is released
Sounds good. I'm glad the exploding 'AT-AT' shot is being kept, despite what is mentioned about their armour being too strong for blasters. It's a terrific visual.
Thought I'd chip in with how I usually choose to 'imagine' the flow of those particular shots whenever I watch the movie:
Even though the AT-AT has been felled, the approaching Snowspeeders just take a quick potshot at it anyway...and merely happen to have a lucky strike! They just happened to hit a 'weakspot', it's neck area, without necessarily knowing that it was a 'weakspot'... It wasn't necessarily a deliberate action that they knew would do so much damage...
Also, when that particular approaching AT-AT was initially 'felled'...the group of Rebels which were in it's path, now possibly see a quick chance to either reach a working 'gun emplacement in front of them, but which is 'offscreen' to us, to mount an attack on the other AT-ATs...or run forwards to rescue a casualty or two, also 'offscreen' to us...
I also choose to imagine that the Snowspeeders that rapidly pass by those 'running Rebels' probably end up a good distance ahead of them by the time we cut to the next shot of the AT-AT being blown up...so that the explosion doesn't actually affect those groundtroops. And even if anyone feels that the footage does make it look like that AT-AT would have exploded too closely to them...then I guess the Snowspeeder pilots can possibly just be too caught up in the 'fog of war' at that point, and don't realise that those groundtroops are potentially going to be injured in any subsequent explosion they cause...
Something I am looking forward to seeing in those 'felled' AT-AT shots though, will be a hint of the 'entangling towcable' around the legs, if adywan can add that.
doubleofive said:
Cleopatra said:
Ripplin said:
Get out.
Kidding. ;)
Well, I only say that because I don't think Ady is keeping all of the new enhancements. If I remember the ESB preview trailer correctly, I think some of the original backgrounds have been replaced.
Except for that first shot there, every window in Cloud City is being SE-enhanced. Visual continuity will rule the day.
You beat me to the continuity comment. Ady is obviously not against all the SE additions, but let's have some consistency, LFL! ;)
doubleofive said:
Except for that first shot there, every window in Cloud City is being SE-enhanced. Visual continuity will rule the day.
Oh awesome! There are very few SE enhancements which I didn't like.
Then again, I was born more than a decade after SW came out, so I didn't really "grow up" with the originals like some people did. I had the original trilogy on VHS in the mid 90s, but the SE came out shortly thereafter. I found it very exciting to try to spot the changes made to the movies. The VHS version of Lapti Nek, though, will forever remain a million times better than Jedi Rocks.
adywan said:
But don't forget, this is just a movie.
Oh, absolutely. As I've said before, this has always kinda bugged me, but it's never stopped this from being my favorite film, and it won't now either. I'm not as hard up to have this removed as it may seem, and certainly not into changing this thing around in ways others have suggested. It was just a quick suggestion that spawned a monster.
Don't mind me... I'll get me coat.
ray_afraid said:
adywan said:
But don't forget, this is just a movie.Oh, absolutely. As I've said before, this has always kinda bugged me, but it's never stopped this from being my favorite film, and it won't now either. I'm not as hard up to have this removed as it may seem, and certainly not into changing this thing around in ways others have suggested. It was just a quick suggestion that spawned a monster.
Don't mind me... I'll get me coat.
Trust me, this was just a tiny monster compared to some that suggestions have created in here. :)
It's very interesting to see how people can interpret the same movie in so many different ways or points of view. I think its great and that's why i don't think everything needs to be spelled out to the audience. The mind is a wonderful thing :)
adywan said:
The mind is a wonderful thing :)
"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas
<span> </span>
I've always liked the AT-ST scene in TESB - it ads a sense of realism and variety, plus some dynamics, which the AT-AT lacks. As Bingowings said, there's no need for each movie to introduce new vehicles. The Prequels were a total mess in that respect and far worse than the established, but expanding set of craft and vehicles in the Originals.
I'm not going to argue about it, but I hope the scene remains. It's a scout vehicle; otherwise the AT-ATs become a uniform bunch that's a bit dull even by the Empire's standards. ;)
By the way, is the AT-ST model different in TESB? It always seemed more smooth and elegant than the "boxes" on Endor... :/
The ESB walker has a different head shape and is much more leggy as this fan built model and the original below show :
The SWTC over at TheForce.net seem to think there are two different variants...ATST and ATST/Assault...
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/walkers.html#atstas