Thanks guys for clearing that up, one thing I did for myself that really annoyed the shit out of me is this, whenever you use the '93 mix you have to remember belbucus's delay settings, well when I made my first sample run I forgot that, so I have fixed those darn PCM files and made them right, now all you have to do is USE THEM, no more having to remember to set friggin delay, that is the way my PCM for Empire and Jedi are to, no delay settings, they are good to go.
dark_jedi said:
I made a sample DVD of Star wars to test how msycamores subs look and to go through and see if I could have 5 audio options for SW, well it worked ALL 5 audio options WILL be available on Star Wars, and the subs look GREAT!
I'm glad to hear the subs turned out good, :) I've only seen them on my computer screen so far, so I'm looking forward to see how they will look on a real TV.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
Chewtobacca said:
I like the 85 stereo. :-( Perhaps you could follow mysycamore's advice about the theatrical mixes but put the other synced audio mixes in the DVD-ROM folder so people could mux them if they want to do so.
Hey, I grew up with the 85 stereo, I have nothing against it. I just feel that, what with the theatrical-recreated subtitles and the ability to, for the first time, have the honest-to-god ORIGINAL audio tracks for ALL 3 FILMS, that these discs should recreate the theatrical experience as much as possible. Therefore, including home video-exclusive mixes seems to go against that purpose (in my opinion).
Hairy_hen's 5.1 tracks help to simulate the 70mm experience, as well (even if they're not exact), so I would include those over the 85 or 93 stereo mixes.
If the 93 mixes for all three films can also be included without a noticeable drop in video quality, I'd love to see them be part of this set as well.
I must be the only one who really doesn't like the 93 mixes around here. The missing snowspeeder effect in ESB, all the stupid glass-shattering in ANH...
A B C said:
Now as a last note about this, an isolated score on a film may be interesting. However I'd find more interesting a fully musical presentation: the complete score, with all the sequences that fit re-edited as video clips... Like the "Star Wars Musical Journey" if you want, but with the exact scenes that the score means to accompany (what would allow to replace the few missing sequences).
... And a bitrate at 1411kbps would be the best :) The idea would almost deserve a topic.
I think this is a great idea. I'd love to see and hear such a disc, wasn't that one of Seventiesfilmnut suggestions with his LP rips in the beginning or was that with McQuarrie art, I don't remember. Anyway, I think you should do it. ;)
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
Any chance you'll be putting a text file or some menu screen on the discs to explain all this audio confusion goodness? Heh.
Ripplin said:
Any chance you'll be putting a text file or some menu screen on the discs to explain all this audio confusion goodness? Heh.
I don't even know what they are, so probably not, unless someone else wants to write one up.
Haha, don't look at me! Maybe someone like hairy_hen or Chainsaw would be better for that. It's not necessary, of course, just an idea that came to me after reading a ton more audio info. (that does go over my head at times, I'm not ashamed to admit) :p
I'm with you Chainsaw, especially the alterations made in SW but they have damn good dynamic range and IMO it is the definitive remix, Ben Burtt should've ended there, the only thing it's lacking is that it's not a 5.1 mix.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
msycamore said:
A B C said:
Now as a last note about this, an isolated score on a film may be interesting. However I'd find more interesting a fully musical presentation: the complete score, with all the sequences that fit re-edited as video clips... Like the "Star Wars Musical Journey" if you want, but with the exact scenes that the score means to accompany (what would allow to replace the few missing sequences).
... And a bitrate at 1411kbps would be the best :) The idea would almost deserve a topic.
I think this is a great idea. I'd love to see and hear such a disc, wasn't that one of Seventiesfilmnut suggestions with his LP rips in the beginning or was that with McQuarrie art, I don't remember. Anyway, I think you should do it. ;)
Do it ? I can only share the idea, mate! lol... Video editing is not my area, otherwise I would have shown you you can layer my ESB mixes on the film soundtracks, hahaha !!! (Big piece of work - a chance it is not my area in fact).
Ripplin said:
Haha, don't look at me! Maybe someone like hairy_hen or Chainsaw would be better for that. It's not necessary, of course, just an idea that came to me after reading a ton more audio info. (that does go over my head at times, I'm not ashamed to admit) :p
Yeah, kind of liner notes... Hahem.
I thought there was a guide or something on that forum about what is what... Don't tell me you don't know all this, guys !
The thing about the 1993 mixes is that for the most part they sound quite a bit better than the 35mm stereo versions, because they were made specifically with the goal of obtaining a powerful sound with unrestricted dynamic range, which they were able to achieve with digital PCM tracks on laserdisc but hadn't been possible in stereo before, due to the technical limitations of 35mm optical sound. (All three films were made before the advent of Dolby SR, which increased the dynamic potential of analog 35mm sound by 3 decibels, though that still isn't as much increase as the '93 versions provide.) Because of this pronounced dynamic superiority, I find them preferable in the overall quality of sound.
It is unfortunate that for Star Wars they could not leave well enough alone, deeming it unfathomably 'necessary' to add a bunch of extra sound effects on top of the existing 70mm transfer that was used. Those awful, obnoxiously loud shattering glass sounds in particular really scream out "see, isn't this new improved remix so much better?" It's telling that many of the same '93 additions also found their way into the special edition a few years later, along with many equally pointless new sounds. One of the reasons I made the 70mm recreation was to be able to hear the film with all its dynamic power intact but with the extraneous sounds removed, along with restoring the LFE punch that had been missing since its original release. I'm not knocking the 35's though; despite being limited they still sound good, and have the benefit of being entirely authentic. ;)
Empire and Jedi fare better in the 1993 versions, since no extra sound effects were added. Unlike Star Wars, though, they were not derived from their respective 70mm mixes--Empire came from an unlimited 4-track master conforming to the 35mm edit, and Jedi was more thoroughly remixed from the multi-track stems. The fact that the snowspeeder crash sound in Empire is missing simply means that it was probably a last minute addition to the 35mm mix, and was not present in the earlier generation source used for the '93. From that assumption, I believe it was probably missing from the 70mm mix also, though there's no way to be sure. For what it's worth I'm probably going to put the snowspeeder sound into the 5.1, though I haven't decided whether to use the 35mm version or get the individual sound effect from the special edition.
In addition to individual preference, which mixes will sound best really depends what kind of audio equipment is being used. If it is something without a lot of amplifier power, the dynamically limited 35mm mixes would be ideal, because they can be played without danger of peak distortion. They are also suited to situations where very high volumes are not desirable. For more capable stereo setups, the '93 mixes (and in that I include the stereo 70mm, since it is the '93 without the extra sounds) will provide greater satisfaction. People with full home theatre setups will naturally want to select the 5.1 mixes, which in spirit (if not always in precise detail) come about as close to the power and overall feel of the 70mm theatrical releases as can be done with the source materials available.
If you like, I reckon I could write a description of this stuff (detailed yet concise) so that it could be included with the dvd's, to help minimise confusion about the audio for anyone who obtains them.
ChainsawAsh said:
The only difference I know of between the 77 and 85 stereo is, as msycamore said, 3PO's tractor beam line from the mono mix, which isn't in any other version until 1997. I feel like there are a couple other differences, but I don't know for sure.
The '85 remix also had more stereo separation (i.e. a wider "soundstage") than the original '77 mix. You can hear this in the jawa voices when R2 is captured.
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I've been watching this project with great interest and this really is an important one. Maybe this is the final project that ever needs to be done on DVD. So kudos to all of you.
Just wondering, what are the music edited TESB and ROTJ mixes by hairy hen? Additional music to the movies or just some remixing? I hope there would be some kind of "original" 5.1 mix in them, too, if they aren't.
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The music edits are relatively minor. In my opinion making the edits is benificial to the films, but not everyone may agree. The only change I made to RotJ is the insertion of the unused music from Luke and Obi-wan's conversation on Dagobah--I did that on a whim last year and kept it in because to me the scene feels like it's missing something without it. In ESB, there are a few places where the score was originally hacked up and very choppily pasted back together for reasons unknown. Perhaps recognising that these edits were detrimental, the special edition restored the cues to the way they were composed and recorded, and the 5.1 mix will include this corrected music. Apart from that, everything will sound exactly as it always has.
Because these choices reflect my preferences and do not exactly represent any official mix, only the 5.1 versions will sound this way--the stereo mixes will be untouched originals.
ChainsawAsh said:
Hey, I grew up with the 85 stereo, I have nothing against it.
Of course not. :-) I did not mean to imply that at all. I was just expressing that I would be disappointed if it were not included, if only as a separate extra track.
ChainsawAsh said:
I just feel that, what with the theatrical-recreated subtitles and the ability to, for the first time, have the honest-to-god ORIGINAL audio tracks for ALL 3 FILMS, that these discs should recreate the theatrical experience as much as possible. Therefore, including home video-exclusive mixes seems to go against that purpose (in my opinion).
I respect your opinion, and agree that the original tracks should be included, but part of this project must surely be for those who wanted a decent DVD release of the pre-SE SW that they grew up with. It would be a shame for the home video tracks not to be synced to these releases.
Have been following this project a lot recently and am really looking forward to finally having all the variant audio tracks present and accounted for. I was wondering, with talk of isolated scores and mixes boasting previously unused content (i.e. the ROTJ mix that was mentioned just before this post), is something similar being included for ESB - will there be an audio track which includes, say, the duel music which was cut for the theatrical run?
It's always interesting to hear such deleted tracks; I'll always prefer the music-less duel, but what was cut was also effective in its own way, nonetheless (I'm thinking specifically about when Yoda's theme kicks in after Luke reclaims his lightsabre and as Vader says 'Obi-Wan has trained you well'; always loved that!).
I don't know if space is an issue, though, with including such 'novelty' tracks, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Always nice to have options. Oh, and for what it's worth:
Chewtobacca said:
...part of this project must surely be for those who wanted a decent DVD release of the pre-SE SW that they grew up with. It would be a shame for the home video tracks not to be synced to these releases.
^ Agreed!
It's tempting to want to include as many tracks as possible, but there comes a point when it's scarcely beneficial to keep putting in more mixes that differ from each other only in nearly inconsequential ways! And of course, anyone who is sufficiently motivated could always make their own custom version muxing the processed video with the audio tracks of their choice; it's actually not that difficult, just a little time-consuming.
I don't have any plans to insert deleted music in ESB. I was watching the Editdroid disc with the isolated score recently, and came to the realisation that most of the parts they cut were ultimately best removed. That isn't a remark against the music, of course; the entire score is brilliantly composed. There are a few things that I think might have been better left in, such as the dangerous low piano motif that marks the first appearance of the Imperial walkers, and the part when Han and Chewie find the probe droid, but those are only small matters. None of them made me feel as strongly that their deletion was a mistake as did the RotJ cue I mentioned (the whole scene somehow falls flat without it). A lot of the parts they cut out are somewhat loud and distracting, sometimes too triumphant--removing them makes the ominous cues that follow become that much more threatening.
Speaking specifically of Luke getting his lightsaber and seemingly defeating Vader in the carbon chamber: I saw a youtube video of the Dooku/Yoda duel in AotC that had that ESB cue inserted into it. It was amazingly effective! The powerful rendition of Yoda's theme brought the otherwise ridiculous scene up to a whole new level entirely, and it was just the right length, too. I thought that was really interesting . . .
I just got feedback from msycamore on my hopefully final version of the '80 Theatrical stereo mix, and he found nothing wrong, not even the screw up I did at the carbon freeze chamber, to be honest I fixed all that was mentioned and while going through the file I found some myself that you guys didn't even hear, I am still waiting on ChainsawAsh's thoughts and I sent the link to hairy_hen and Adywan,if all goes well I will finish up Jedi and then possibly get the home release stereo re-mixes of all 3 films(but I need ChainsawAsh's help on which LD's these are on) so Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back should be done soon.
dark_jedi said:
I found some myself that you guys didn't even hear
That's kinda good and bad at the same time. Haha. Anyway, congrats on such a big breakthrough!
dark_jedi said:
I just got feedback from msycamore on my hopefully final version of the '80 Theatrical stereo mix, and he found nothing wrong, not even the screw up I did at the carbon freeze chamber, to be honest I fixed all that was mentioned and while going through the file I found some myself that you guys didn't even hear...
I did notice the screwup in the carbon freeze when I listened to the first audio file a second time after hairy_hen pointed it out. But as I said in my earlier feedback it was now corrected, but I have now listened to the whole second attempt and didn't find any errors in it, but there may still be errors in it of course ;) Anyway, it is great that this track will finally be available, both by d_j and h_hen. Thanks!
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
It's ok to have several different soundtrack options available, as long as it doesn't hurt the picture quality. :) If the foreign language tracks are removed and every inch of space on a dual-layer DVD is used, then there should be enough room for a few soundtrack options, while maintaining picture quality.
This 70mm stereo soundtrack sounds interesting, in that it's apparently just like the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack, but with no added sound effects. So it's an authentic theatrical soundtrack? What source was used to get this 70mm stereo soundtrack, is it complete? Does it sound as good as the Definitive Collection does (in terms of overall quality)?
The nice thing about the soundtracks from the Star Wars laserdisks is that they are good PCM tracks, not heavily compressed like you often see on DVD's. So the original uncompressed PCM soundtracks can then be compressed into 448k DD 2.0 soundtracks, for the best audio quality you can get on DVD.
The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.
I wouldn't worry about several audio tracks hurting the video. Even at an average of 6500 I doubt the video stream will be much more than 5.5 GB.
448 kbps is massive overkill for a 2.0 mix. That's a 5.1 bitrate. 320 kbps is pretty much transparent, and even then that's probably too much. DD recommend 192, so I would probably encode 224, or maybe 256, to be safe.
Ah, I had assumed that the 448k bit-rate was on a per-channel basis, thus it would be the same with 2.0 vs 5.1 (just with less channels). But *if* 448k is the total combined bit-rate for all channels of a DD 5.1 soundtrack, then I agree that it's not necessary for a 2.0 soundtrack, although it would be nice.
If there were only one 2.0 soundtrack being included and nothing else, then I'd say you might as well crank it to 448k and go for max quality, since there's room to spare, but since this DVD will include a few soundtrack options, then space might be an issue. Bear in mind that when this is played on a quality home theater system (as many Star Wars fans will no doubt do), you really want a hi-fi soundtrack, as compression artifacts/limitations become noticeable on transparent audio systems, it makes the soundtrack sound tinny. Also, since these PCM soundtracks are so nice to begin with, you want to capture and preserve that great quality. So I think it's best to aim for the high end of that and go with 320k for the 2.0 soundtracks. Unless, what with the other included soundtracks, it absolutely will not fit on a dual-layer DVD disk. In which case, go for 256k.
The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.
^^
Agreed. 192 is unacceptable, IMO, I don't even put MP3s on my iPod at that bitrate. There should be enough space to start at 224 and see how much higher you can push it, especially for the PCM tracks, with 320 being an ideal figure.