Monroville said:
Rogue Leader said:
TIEs are a box with engines and a pair of guns with a pilot that probably won't survive their first dogfight... If you don't know how to use all the speed and maneuverability to your advantage then you're not going into a battle well prepared at all.
As oppose to Rebellion pilots who have the advantage of hyperdrive, shields, and a ejection system to protect their ships and people (as their resources were limited and thus to protect such investments made sense). Their pilots live through their encounters, learn from them, and come back as fighter aces to slag their Imperial counter parts.
Makes sense to me even if it was some interesting retconning. ;)
I know, I know.. I'm getting into a STAR WARS debate with a SW fan; a REALLY BIG SW fan. But all of the stuff you mention is fanfic EU stuff... it still doesn't jive with what a real empire would do: the Romans had the best in armor and weaponry, although it was after Caesar and Augustus that the legions really started to get professional military training. Also, one can look at the japanese empire during WW2 as far as "lightweight fighters that were a breath away from destruction". Even so, the US was an industrial giant and had the ability, material and time to create superior fighters to counter and destroy the Zeros.
In this case, it would be akin to Al-Quada (not that the rebels are terrorists, but would have similar financial and industrial challenges) having far better military equipment and trained soldiers than the US or UK. They may know all the best hidey holes and know that the only way they can match the US and UK is to play unfair, but when fighting toe-to-toe there is no match: they always lose. Same thing happened in Vietnam: when the VC staged the Tet offensive, they were annihilated because they came out in the open; when they went back to an underground battle of demoralization, they realized the only way to defeat the US was to destroy their will to fight.
Same case "should" be with the Empire and the Rebellion: the Empire has whole planets to mine, refine and industrialize to create any war machine that can withstand any rebellion firepower, much less overwhelm it, and with far better trained pilots that can be rotated in duty. The reality should be the other way around: x-wings falling apart due to lack of spare parts, while TIEs get harder to destroy, more manueverable, etc.
But this is STAR WARS. In a fantasy world, the good guys are always going to have the upper hand in some way, regardless of how silly the explanation may be. You would think the Empire just cloned Laurel and Hardy or Inspector Clouseau for their entire troop line, judging them by their competence.
Haha... guys, I'm well aware that this is just a movie/expanded story via books and such... I was never saying that this is how war works and is the template for all war ever. That's insane... so please don't think I'm insane in believing that this is some word of law concerning SW either. lol
I maybe crazy EU knowledgeable but I totally do see the practicality of numerical advantage and the other points you brought up for real life war. Trust me, I have other interests other than SW so I'm not gonna debate about the validity of one ship class or type of pilot over another, as both don't even exist (although I could... very much so... lol). ;)
However, if you want to talk about real life war then I can throw an example or two myself supporting the point of view of superior training and skill to do the impossible against a numerically superior foe. The Battle of Thermopylae, the numerically superior Persians with an army of hundreds of thousands went head to head with the 300 Spartans and about 7000 Greek allies. For 3 days an army that out numbered the Greeks very badly were utterly fought to a stand still. If the Greeks were not betrayed I imagine they would of held out even longer and have demoralized the Persians to lose all taste for battle to abandon their campaign rather than press a battle of attrition further.
However, we can also go further into their equipment and training. The Spartans alone are a prime example of well trained soldiers who lived through many battles (and thus learn from previous encounters) vs the enslaved cultures of King Xerexes with their non-existent training of hack and slash while absorbing their peoples as their troops. They were further equipped with crappy wicker shields and cheapy armor.
The Spartans and other hoplites of the allied Greek army carried argive shields aka the "hoplon", that was layered with brass over wood that withstood the main attack strategy of the Persians: arrow bombardment. (Better sheilds protecting the soliders so that they'd live to fight another day or another encounter... hmmm sounds familiar... =D), and contrary to the move "300", the Spartans and the Greeks wore heavy hoplite armor (and I've seen this armor at the Britsh Museum, it's THICK as heck...). Compared to the defensive capabilities of the Persian "sheilds" that were pretty much material that baskets are made of and thus crappy (kinda like TIEs... lol. Oh! Right... real life examples... *nodding*). Overall the bulk of the Greeks mostly withdrew from Thermoplyae (I'd say they hyped but that's a SW term too. =P) and so that battle was a loss but not without dealing the Persians huge loses and over all they won the war mainly because of the example set by the Spartans in particular. This rallied Greece like never before to openly work together (as Greece was a bunch of unallied city-states at the time) and fight the most massive army ever assembled. The Greeks were ALWAYS outnumbered during all the battles of the Greco-Persian war.
They way I look at it in the case of Star Wars, was that everyday was a Thermoplyae for the Rebel Alliance. They fought hard in every battle, ran when they couldn't win or wasn't worth fighting cos the cost would be too high, and lived on to fight another day. Furthermore, when the credits were down and they had to go all in they won the day in most cases which inspired MORE planetary systems to openly Rebel and rally to the Alliance. The Battles of Yavin and Endor example inspired entire systems to start to defy the tyranny of the Empire.
If you wish to compare real life war to the Galactic Civil War that's fine, I can easy throw out comparative notes from a variety of wars as well. I'm not saying your examples are invalid but in the long history of human warfare it's very easy to find examples to support either one of our points.
I personally love strategy and watching stories of war, but don't get me wrong their either, I do not love the process of war itself or the lives lost. However, war ironically has been a main driver for the evolution of the human race and I feel there are many lessons to be learned from it. One day however, it is very easy to believe we'd destroy ourselves so if there is a story that drives home a message that destroying a planet is wrong and should be fought at all cost then I'm all for it...
What movie is like that... I know there's a movie that has a planet destroyed by a massive war machine and then is fought by a motley bad of Rebels... Darn it... what was it again... Will have to think about it. ;)
So anyway, I agree with your examples, no worries, but I believe my examples are equally valid. It just depends on which war you'd like to look at along with what analogies you'd like to present in comparing them to the Star Wars saga. Oh! That was it! that was the movie I was thinking of! =D
