You guys are worse than George you know that?
+irony=
It could probably use with a different field of view, some lens distortion, 3D fog and something more three dimensional to connect it.
Hmm. Needs more dawg Rontos.
DE
PS If they ever get around to processing the damn thing: comparison shot
Ever so often we get a post like this I can understand it on a forum based around getting the original versions of the these movies but the two go hand in hand.
There is the original version which should be released, restored and presented in the best available format and then there is the SE.
The SE is a different entity with it's own set of mission statements.
All of which missed the mark.
The matte was already fiddled with in 1997 and in 2004 but almost everything about it doesn't work.
So I don't see a problem with trying to use what ever means possible to fix the shot in the SE.
Does it make for a better film?
Possibly not better than the film was back in 1980, it's a largely subjective thing some people just don't like anything that looks remotely like it was filmed in a different decade from the one they are viewing it in (I can never get my head around that personally) but it could contribute to a better film than the SE released in 1997 if you aren't taken out of the moment when a CGI cityscape jumps to a static matte with out of scale models and questionable perspective.
If Ady or any of the editors who contribute to these boards were trying to prevent the 1997 or 2004 versions from being available to buy a comparison with Lucas would have some validity but it's not the case here.
That clip is pure win DE :D
Thanks for the comparison
And yes more Rontos are always welcome
-Angel
Darth Editous said:
PS If they ever get around to processing the damn thing: comparison shot
Hot dog! The difference is like night and day, and it really brings the shot into the 21st century.
Nice 1 DE
J
No, no. You get me all wrong. I'm not against updating the films. I like it. What I mean is of all the shots and mattes you could mess around with you choose exactly one of those that are least objectionable. And make it more objectionable with dodgy CG.
I'm not against the 3D effect either for that matter, if you find the time and effort to do it then kudos to you, but at least do it well.
You guys need to study your film history and production techniques. All this "converting 2D to 3D" is just the modern digital equivalent of what Disney was doing since the 30's with the multi-plane camera.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.
No, no. You get me all wrong. I'm not against updating the films. I like it. What I mean is of all the shots and mattes you could mess around with you choose exactly one of those that are least objectionable. And make it more objectionable to me with dodgy CG.
There, fixed that for you.
I'm sorry if it's not up to your standards, but my intention was to add a 3D effect to an existing matte painting and otherwise leave it exactly as is. I didn't want people reaching for the pause button because some new shiny shot has just leapt out at them, and judging by the original response (which was largely "what's changed?") I succeeded.
I'm not against the 3D effect either for that matter, if you find the time and effort to do it then kudos to you, but at least do it well.
I think I did. I don't think that:
the way it connects to the sail looks kinda like a cardboard cutout, if you'll excuse me.
DE
BmB said:
You guys are worse than George you know that?
i think you forgot what is being edited
the revisited edits are to FIX the SE not the OUT
sure things from the SE are being replaced with things
from the originals but still this is not a OUT edit its a
SE edit
John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/
I know this is more to do with ROTJ than ESB, but since it's on the topic of adding 3D to matte paintings, I've always been very annoyed with how the emperor's death looks--
This shot would look way better if the matte was on a 3D mesh and the camera was given a bit of movement-- not to mention that Palpy's lightning looks like crap, and the explosion at the end could stand to be much better if it were re-done.
Darth Editous said:
I'm not against the 3D effect either for that matter, if you find the time and effort to do it then kudos to you, but at least do it well.I think I did.
You definately did DE!
I really loved that 3D-style 'zoom-in' effect. Thanks for that split-screen version. :)
As far as the design of the Vane itself, the thing I always wanted to see as a fix, was the long extending arm/tunnel (that Luke follows Vader through) being moved higher up to align nearer where Luke exits near the round window. I always thought this was the most straight-forward change to make to the current look....meaning that the actual 'Carbon Chamber' was situated in the 'surrounding wall' at the other end of the arm/tunnel.
But as Adywan seems to prefer the location of the 'Carbon Chamber' as being inside the Vane, then I'm really looking forward to his final re-design which will make this more plausible.
Och no!, not the Carbon Freezing Chamber location debate again!
I think the possibility of updating the old static mattes of the trilogy, whether created for the OUT or SE's is fantastic.
These static shots were amazing at the time, but with the way we watch movies these days they don't stand up to the standards we expect.
As long as they are done subtly as Darth Editous has achieved.
J
Darth Editous said:
I think I did.
I think so as well - the effect is subtle, and maintains the original art of the matte, yet at the same time makes it much more believable and very panoramic (reminds me of the zoom-in-through-the-clouds shot of Cloud City ala the last ESB:R trailer, making me think that this Vane matte effect, if included, would really be in keeping with the spruced up look/cinematography this film is getting via Revisited).
This shot would look way better if the matte was on a 3D mesh and the camera was given a bit of movement-- not to mention that Palpy's lightning looks like crap, and the explosion at the end could stand to be much better if it were re-done.
That's one case where I think the shot is so iconic and dramatic that if any 3D effect is added it should be incredibly subtle, on the order of pixels. More important would be some more interactive lighting effects to bring out the levels of the walkways, maybe they have them throw some extra shadows.
But that's Ep VI, of course, and this is Ady's Ep V thread, so...
DE
I definitely agree that any 3D in Palpatine's death would have to be very subtle. However, like you said, interactive lighting effects would be one of the big things that makes or breaks the scene.
Maybe if the camera pulled backwards ever so slightly as Palpatine fell it would be enough to hint at this being a 3D space, in addition to making Palpy's fall feel slightly more dramatic in scale?
The subject has been covered quite a bit on the ESB ROTJ wishlist thread.
I personally can't see an element that's worthy of salvage from a SE perspective.
Everything about the matte design, the model the lightning is so messed up I quite like the vortex explosion thing and the ghostly howl but it would be easier to start from scratch with that one.
I think it's a nice start but everything seems to shift a bit too much. I think it needs more depth to establish the right scale.
Jacen said:
How about a picture of the merchandise for the kiddies to drool over.....?
Ripplin said:
How 'bout a pic of the entire workstation, Ady? I bet it's as messy as mine! ;) (no offense)
ha ha. i will post a picture of the workstation, but you are totally correct Ripplin. It's a total mess. I almost eat, sleep and live at this desk 24/7 so its littered with all sorts of crap. I get around to tidying it every week or so and i'm always surprised that i actually have a bit of space underneath all these crisp and chocolate wrappers. Next time it gets a tidy up i'll get some pictures
Monroville said:
Ady: speaking of the "Lando going up the roof hatch" scene, is that going to be modified in any way (taking out one of the door opening scenes, which would shorten the tunnel; skies and lighting changed to orange tint to match other outside shots of Bespin at dusk/dawn - which I think it is, since we see the sun rising along Bespin's edge when the Falcon reaches space)?
I'll be leaving that scene the way it is apart from adding the underside of cloud city to the hatch opening.
ImperialFighter said:
Can't wait to see what Adywan has decided to do with his whole Vane sequence eventually....
well originally it was going to be done in a similar way to Darth Editous' brilliant concept (BmB, how the hell can you say that it wasn't done well, especially how good that shot looks and i doubt thats even his finished version), but ever since DE showed everyone how he had done it i really needed to go down a different route or it will just look like i was copying his idea. I'm heading for a large model of the shaft and vane but will be a longer zoom in shot blending in the matte shot and the shot where luke walks towards the entrance.
Looking at the matte shot it really does make the vane look really thin, but when we see it from underneath we can see that it is a lot fatter than we originally thought. The other thing to fix in those scenes is the position of the window. It keeps changing its position and is way to low down after the first matte zoom shot
BmB said:
No, no. You get me all wrong. I'm not against updating the films. I like it. What I mean is of all the shots and mattes you could mess around with you choose exactly one of those that are least objectionable. And make it more objectionable with dodgy CG.
Ziz said:
You guys need to study your film history and production techniques. All this "converting 2D to 3D" is just the modern digital equivalent of what Disney was doing since the 30's with the multi-plane camera.
Ziz totally answered that one.
The meeting on saturday went well. It's all set in motion now. filming the extra scenes is green lighted.
This project is growing and growing daily. To think that when i started it i was sure this would be the easy one. lol. But its all a learning curve. The experience i get from this edit is going to be invaluable for ROT:J, which is going to make ESB:R look like a walk in the park. The scale of things to build and film will be at least a years worth of work alone. But i'm going to love (almost) every minute of it.
Words will not be possible when I get to see that space battle in ROTJ ;] And pardon for me asking, but how big is your "film crew"? This poo is getting crazy! I wish you the best of luck, I'm really excited *changes pants*
The person your searching for simply does not exist
Darth Editous said:
I'm sorry if it's not up to your standards, but my intention was to add a 3D effect to an existing matte painting and otherwise leave it exactly as is. I didn't want people reaching for the pause button because some new shiny shot has just leapt out at them, and judging by the original response (which was largely "what's changed?") I succeeded.
DE
Then why add the 3D effect at all? It's not like there's anything wrong with zooming in.
adywan said:
BmB, how the hell can you say that it wasn't done well, especially how good that shot looks and i doubt thats even his finished version
Because with the amount of motion in the camera, there's no parralax on either the fog or the greebly detail in the background. Which makes it look distinctly painted on, helping the "cardboard cutout" look. Which was why I suggested 3D fog be added. As well as the reduction in field of view that would *maybe* further help mask the effect.
The linelike flatness of the connection also gives it the cardboard effect, even though the shading on the connector suggests a more three dimensional shape. Youtube quality isn't the best for judging how these shots will look in full quality anyway.
But if you're building a model that sounds like it will look great.
The multiplane effect never looked good btw.
<<
>>
Props So far:
A star destroyer Bridge that became a full Star destroyer.
A hoth base hangar
Bespin's Shaft
Millennium falcon
Snow Speeders's Wing flaps.
An Asteroid canyon
The belly of the AT-AT
The wampa something.
A medical frigate.
Several rebel ships to replace the copy paste faded ones
A Shield Generator
CGI Stuff so far.
The lambda shuttle
3d Animated snow hoth lanscape with AT - ATs on it to replace the bad composite shot(Vue) before luke crash landed.
An X wing for Luke's approach on bespin
Plus live action Elements to replace bad shots as hoth soldiers shots.
-Angel
Whoever coined the phrase "it doesn't have to be a hollywood production" obviously never met you guys. :D
Seriously, this project gets more awesome the more I hear about it.
Its funny that they used the same backdrop and they changed the position and the scale of luke to achieve different angles...
Either that was their intension or not I d like to see a shot that there are only siluetes from the sun... or at least show bespin's big tail.
Ady Ive noticed that in your CC version the tie fighters are blueish greyis in this cloud shots. Shouldnt be orangeish as the SE did for the sake of global ilumination?
-Angel
Well all the live action with Hamill hanging from the prop seems to be shot from the same angle so naturally the background would match.
Because with the amount of motion in the camera, there's no parralax on either the fog or the greebly detail in the background.
It never occured to me that the whiteness at the bottom of the painting was meant to be fog. If I was going to redo this, I might try to tone it down. I won't add 3D fog because there's none in subsequent shots down the shaft.
I'm not sure you what you mean about "greebles", but I don't think there are meant to be any lumps and bumps in the wall's surface that would be big enough to show parallax over such a small move.
DE