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Need Help to sync DD 5.1 LD rip to LD video capture for 97 SE "Take 2" Set

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 (Edited)

OK So I have officially started my "Take 2" of the 97' Special Edition Star Wars Trilogy,I have ANH SE(3 sides) and ESB SE(3 sides) on my drive right now and have the IVTC patterns done for both and have my avisynth script started,My goal is to try and make them look as good as I can obviously,and to make anamorphic which is something I failed to do(along with the IVTC)on my last set,but I have run into a snag and REALLY would like to get past it something FIERCE,I have the rips of the DD 5.1 audio form these LD's and am trying my damndest to sync them,I got ANH SE side 1 to sync,but side 2 and ESB SE side 1 just go way way out as the video progresses,and I mean WAY out,now I do not know how the heck ANH SE side 1 sync'd so good but I'll be dammed if the other sides are cooperating as nicley,so PLEASE if anyone here has any ideas on how you go about doing this I would really appreciate some tips or pointers.

I will post screens and more info as soon as I figure this out and do some more avisynth testing,right now I have made simple anamorphic,IVTC'd lossless avi files to work on the audio,because to me at least,the DD 5.1 will make this set worth a lot more,like I said,at least to me.

Thanks for any and all help in this

 

!!!!! 1 more thing,the person or persons that can help me get past this so I can move on,will get ALL 3 of these sent to them through the mail once I have them finished,so you won't have to wait to download,and I don't give a shit where you live,inside or outside the US is fine,you WILL get them.

 

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If I understand correctly, the audio was ripped by someone else? How did you receive it, is it one AC3 file per LD side?

Because it's a digital rip, I would not expect to see any audio drift, it should be locked to the video.

Firstly, I would check to see if it syncs to the raw video, to ensure that your IVTC hasn't changed the overall running time.

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Yes the audio was ripped by someone else,I do not have the setup to rip the DD 5.1 audio,wish I did,and it is in ac3 format 1 file per side,and the specs for each file is this:
(DialNorm -27,384 kbps,Surround mix -3,Center mix -3)
and I tried as you said,sync it to the raw video and I get the same results,I get it sync'd at the start then it goes way out the further you go into the film,there is no sudden jump,it gradually goes further and further out,by the end of the video file we are talking some serious full seconds out,not ms.

Here are some things I did notice about the file lengths and frame amounts per ac3 file and video file,not sure if this will tell you anything but hopefully it will.

anh1.ac3 - 84460 frames - 45 min 3 sec
anh.avi (video) - 64514 frames - 44 min 51 sec

anh2.ac3 - 107869 frames - 57 min 32 sec
anh2.avi (video) - 83100 frames - 57 mins 47 sec

but 1 thing I looked at for the hell of it was I compared the stereo wav file I made from the ac3 file(for sync'ing) to the wav file my capture created to see how the waves from the audio line up in Audition,and they both look pretty identical,the highs and lows in the waveform almost match up perfectly,again not sure if this helps I am just graspping now to figure this out,although I did not zoom in,maybe should do that.

Thanks for taking a look,there just has to be a way to sync this.

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satanika said:

Did you compare the pitch of the audio, is it lower/higher?

Have you checked the samplerate (kHz) of all the parts, are they the same?

 

All files(sides) have the same sample rate of 48,000 Hz

and how do I check the pitch?

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satanika said:

With your ears ;)

It should be obvious when played simultaneously, it would sound off-key if the pitch doesn't match.

Hmm, is this the raw ac3 stream? Is LD ac3 48kHz or 44.1kHz? Was it ripped digitally? Did the capper already convert it in some way?

I will give it a listen LOL and see if I hear any difference,and for the other questions,I am not sure I will have to ask him when he is back online,damn this is just soooo frustrating,I have never seen this before in an audio file.

Thanks for checkin in though,I really appreciate it.

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How are you 'checking' the sync? I'm guessing you're down-mixing the AC3 to a 2-channel wav then using wavsource and audiodub in AviSynth.

BTW: 64514 frames - 44 min 51 sec is correct for 23.976fps video.
83100 frames - 57 mins 47 sec is 1s out (should be 57m46s).

Is LD ac3 48kHz or 44.1kHz?

It's 48kHz, 384kbps.

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"How are you 'checking' the sync? I'm guessing you're down-mixing the AC3 to a 2-channel wav then using wavsource and audiodub in AviSynth."

actually I do not know how to set up an avisynth script to do what you have there,another thing I did not know avisynth could do LOL,I have just been loading the avi file into VDub and then loading the audio into VDub and using it to find and set delay like I have always done,and yes I have been down converting to wav.

Is it better to check sync with your avisynth method?

This is really getting frustrating,just can't see what the heck is going on with these files,the ONLY file that syncs up almost perfectly is anh1.ac3 with anh LD side1,as for sides 2-3 and ESB sides 1-3,none sync up at all,it is like the audio is just going way to fast or something,just weird.

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This is very strange indeed. You mentioned to me that you ripped the AC3 from my ESB AVCHD and it synced up perfectly to your video. Well i didn't have to change the speed of the audio to sync with the video so it is the same speed and pitch that it was ripped from the laserdisc

If you have sony vegas you could try loading your video and the downconverted wav files into that to see if they sync that way

You're not joining the 3 AC3 files together and trying to sync the whole file that way are you?

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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dark_jedi said:

actually I do not know how to set up an avisynth script to do what you have there,another thing I did not know avisynth could do LOL,I have just been loading the avi file into VDub and then loading the audio into VDub and using it to find and set delay like I have always done,and yes I have been down converting to wav.

Is it better to check sync with your avisynth method?

It should not make any difference whether you use AviSynth or Virtualdub. If you want to try avisynth, the script is very simple:

video=avisource("anh2.avi")
audio=wavsource("anh2.wav")
audiodub(video, audio)
delayaudio(0.000) # adjust for sync

What prog are you using to decode/downmix the AC3?

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OK here goes for some answers,

"You're not joining the 3 AC3 files together and trying to sync the whole file that way are you?"
no I am not joining the files first,only doing 1 side at a time,I think if I join them all now and try the whole thing at once it would be that much further out.

"What prog are you using to decode/downmix the AC3?"
I usually use PX3's AC3 to WAV but thought that my be the problem so then I tried BeSweet,and same results with both.

Thanks again for trying to help me sort this out,I will try Vegas and see what happens.

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Moth3r said:

Is LD ac3 48kHz or 44.1kHz?

It's 48kHz, 384kbps.


Dunno if it's true or not, but I recall reading that in NTSC-land PCM soundtracks are actually running at 44056Hz, or 44,100*(1000/1001).

Yes I understand PCM & AC3 are different beasts and we risk comparing apples to oranges, but I can't help wondering if the same principle applies?
48000*(1000/1001) = 47952Hz
That's in the neighborhood of 3sec difference per side.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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The point is that if the audio is supposed to be played back at 47952Hz and instead it's played at 48000Hz, it will be slightly too fast. But I am 99% certain that LD PCM is 44.1kHz and LD AC3 is 48kHz, so unless someone can find a reliable source to prove me wrong, this is not the issue here. 

dark_jedi said:

but 1 thing I looked at for the hell of it was I compared the stereo wav file I made from the ac3 file(for sync'ing) to the wav file my capture created to see how the waves from the audio line up in Audition,and they both look pretty identical,the highs and lows in the waveform almost match up perfectly,again not sure if this helps I am just graspping now to figure this out,although I did not zoom in,maybe should do that.

Yes you should do that, you might notice something. Zoom in far enough so that you can see the waveforms of individual sounds or spoken words.

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 (Edited)

The Laserdisc FAQ mentions 44056Hz PCM. It's probably where I read it first.
Author doesn't say anything about AC3 sampling rate, so my hypothesis is still a WAG . . . but it makes perfect sense in my mind.

When film is shot, live action is sampled at a rate of 24Hz by the camera.
NTSC plays it back slower than that, by a factor of 1000/1001

When PCM is 'shot', analog sounds are sampled at a rate of 44,100Hz
NTSC plays it back slower than that (44056 if the FAQ is correct)

When AC3 is 'shot', analog sounds are sampled @48kHz then DD-compressed.
NTSC plays it back slower than that ???

I'd test the hypothesis using a hex editor to manipulate the WAV header...

 

... or force video playback to 24.000 and see if the 48kHz WAV syncs to that

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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I will look into that M,I was pretty busy yesterday but have time today.

DM you have some interesting points there,but why then would anh1.ac3 sync up to anh1.avi but anh2 & 3,and ESB 1-3 all be off,wouldn't ALL sides be off the same together? anh1.av3 was perfect and sounds damn good,this is why it is so frustrating to me.

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Darth Mallwalker said:

The Laserdisc FAQ mentions 44056Hz PCM. It's probably where I read it first.

The Laserdisc FAQ appears to be wrong, according to posters in alt.video.laserdisc.

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I did not test all sides for errors but I did a few of them and there are no errors.

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Moth3r said:

The Laserdisc FAQ appears to be wrong, according to posters in alt.video.laserdisc.


Read that thread, and it reminded me how much I miss Karyudo.

Try this one from videohelp.com
Cornucopia knows what I'm talkin' about.

Try goggling "NTSC 44056 47952" and count all the hits from digidesign.com
They seem to know what Cornucopia's talkin'bout

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r