Have you read any of the ESB/ROTJ Wishlist Thread Darth Venal?
I've been trying to work on transposing Ben's ghost in ROTJ from Dagobah to his old hut and that sort of work would be very useful for something like that.
That is impressive work I was never convinced by the SE painting of Ben's hut either.
Going by your Tosche Station recreation are you working on trying to enhance the deleted scenes at all?
I've added a few more frames to the Alderaan sequence, just mock-up frames of the sort of effect I'd like to achieve with the shockwave across blasting the surface.
I would like to enhance the deleted scenes, very much so, but that will take time and they are never going to be anything like DVD quality, so I may keep them for a seperate workprint and use the new mattes for my Special Edition where I'm trying to keep everything the best possible quality. You're right, that SE painting of Ben's hut doesn't really work. Sure, it has more detail than the shot in the original, but it just isn't a very good painting.
That's interesting as it makes out the super laser is more than just a very big laser.
I love the way the atmosphere seems to be getting hit by an enormous aurora (which it possibly would be for a fraction of a second).
Yes! The return of Ben's hut! I love it! =D
Bingowings:
That's interesting as it makes out the super laser is more than just a very big laser.
I love the way the atmosphere seems to be getting hit by an enormous aurora (which it possibly would be for a fraction of a second).
Well, I never bought the notion that one big laser can hit a planet and obliterate it as soon as it touches it. Something doesn't have to be quick to look powerful, and if anything, when dealing with a body as massive as a planet, I think it really should take time.
That aurora effect is quite nice, and I figured, just because it's destructive doesn't mean it can't also be beautiful. With audio, of course, it's going to sound like an awfully destructive aurora!
Darth Venal said:Bingowings:
That's interesting as it makes out the super laser is more than just a very big laser.
I love the way the atmosphere seems to be getting hit by an enormous aurora (which it possibly would be for a fraction of a second).
Well, I never bought the notion that one big laser can hit a planet and obliterate it as soon as it touches it. Something doesn't have to be quick to look powerful, and if anything, when dealing with a body as massive as a planet, I think it really should take time.
That aurora effect is quite nice, and I figured, just because it's destructive doesn't mean it can't also be beautiful. With audio, of course, it's going to sound like an awfully destructive aurora!
I can understand where you're coming from, but also think atomic bomb or anti-matter. Those don't take too much time to instantly vaporizing large areas.. >:)
Not to mention you have to consider the pacing of the thing too. The laser blows the planet up and we immediately go to Ben feeling their demise. The more protracted the Alderaan explosion, the more it could throw the timing or feeling of the movie off (kinda like the "Ben dies" scene in ANH:R - the music ques kinda crash into each other, resulting in the "Luke's shock" que feeling a little off for me - not time wise, but having 3 dramatic music ques in less than 3 to 5 seconds one after the other).
Then again, the above stuff DOES look pretty cool... I was pretty happy with the original explosion (the Stargate one is pretty good, but still a little too CG for STAR WARS). If anything, the explosion would probably be more like the Jupiter one in 2010 (white light and circular top-to-bottom explosion ring to indicate a sphere, as opposed to the horizontal explosion rings from STARGATE or STAR TREK VI).
But that's just me. I would still love to see this in full motion...
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
plus ben says like millions of voices crying out in terror then were "SUDDENLY" silenced
John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/
We haven't seen this thing in motion yet so it's difficult to say how fast it is but Ben did say "millions were crying out in terror and were suddenly silenced".
The emphasis is on the sudden silence it doesn't prove that the whole process was instantaneous.
Bingowings:The emphasis is on the sudden silence, it doesn't prove that the whole process was instantaneous.
Well, exactly Bingowings. I mean, if you really want to take Ben at his literal word, but honestly, what's the difference between a planet exploding instantaneously, and somewhat improbably, to a planet being obliterated by a shockwave in about five seconds? I mean, your entire planet blowing up in a few seconds isn't sudden? The timing with Ben then feeling the event in the Force is fine.
Monroville:I can understand where you're coming from, but also think atomic bomb or anti-matter. Those don't take too much time to instantly vaporizing large areas.
No, they don't take too much time, but they do take some time, which is my entire thinking behind the new sequence.
Hey, some neat stuff there on your alternative Alderaan explosion Darth Venal. Personally I reckon it would work better without the cut to the planet surface, purely for a quicker denoument overall, which would more closely match the original speed of destruction. But that's just my own preference at the end of the day. Nice work.
Adywan's new explosion was one of the highlights of his edit for me, but my ideal version would have included just the single quick shot of the fast approaching shockwave as it engulfs Jar Jar (from his unused version), at a point between the planet being hit by the beam, and it then exploding....heh, heh. ;)
Actually, I prefer it without the planet surface shots, too. The momentum is much better without it.
The problem is a dramatic one, however. Alderaan blowing up in Star Wars barely registers to me, it never did, and main reason for that is that we never see anything of it, or anyone on it who is being destroyed. Sure, blowing up a planet is dramatically impressive, but it's impersonal, and so, for me, emotionally lacking. Exactly the same mistake is made in Star Trek Generations, where the entire fight with Soran is to stop him killing 230 million people on a planet we never even see except in stellar cartography! If we can at least get a glimpse of what is being destroyed it feels more valid. But again, I do agree that it works better faster. I feel the original explosion is far to brief, but mine with the few seconds on the surface is too long, so I'll probably cut it.
just don't cut to the planet surface; as it stands, I think it looks quite impressive and could be a better alternative to what is in ANH:R. The main thing is that it doesn't come across as taking 10 minutes to a day for Alderaan to blow up, just to show Michael Bayhem in each of the cities (like what we get nowadays).
Seeing the green shockwave go around and the planet blowing up would still give it some kick while still happening quick enough to keep with the original's pace.
I also like the idea of seeing ships (like hundreds) leaving in the left side of the screen, on the opposite side of the DS and then getting wiped out from the shock wave, though at the same time Alderaanians probably wouldn't know what hit them (DS pops up, lots of people say "what the hell is that thing?!"; green laser comes out; blammo)
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
Monroville said:just don't cut to the planet surface; as it stands, I think it looks quite impressive and could be a better alternative to what is in ANH:R. The main thing is that it doesn't come across as taking 10 minutes to a day for Alderaan to blow up, just to show Michael Bayhem in each of the cities (like what we get nowadays).
Seeing the green shockwave go around and the planet blowing up would still give it some kick while still happening quick enough to keep with the original's pace.
I also like the idea of seeing ships (like hundreds) leaving in the left side of the screen, on the opposite side of the DS and then getting wiped out from the shock wave, though at the same time Alderaanians probably wouldn't know what hit them (DS pops up, lots of people say "what the hell is that thing?!"; green laser comes out; blammo)
That doesn't explain the cries of terror that Ben goes on about though (if we take him at his word).
If the planet was snuffed out in one swoop without the Alderaanians knowing what hit them how could they be distressed enough to communicate fear to him via the Force?
Yeah, Bingowings is right, I think. The people on Alderaan had to have had some idea they were in peril. After all, Bail Organa was well aware what the Death Star was because of his affiliation with the Rebel Alliance. And he surely would have tried to get his people away. Also, given that there will always be space traffic coming and going, it's fair to say that a few ships must have had a chance of escape. I may try to show one getting away into hyperspace, but I'm inclined to show a total wipeout as that is what the scene is aiming to convey. Even one ship escaping undermines it dramatically, and at this point in the story that's not really desirable.
IMHO, adding some shots of the planet surface and the people on it being destroyed will create another problem, which is unfortuantely, I think a problem in the movie itself.
If we create an emotional and dramatic representation of what's going on the surface of the problem, the audience will be emotionally touched by what happens... but this seems to lack amongst the characters in the movie.
Leia's reacton to the destruction of her planet has honoustly always bugged me a little. It didn't detract from the movie, but I've always seemed (since the first time I saw SW) to feel that she was a little emphatic to the situation.
I mean, everyone she once knew is dead. Her mother, father, aunts, uncles, friends, other family, etc... Dead! But that doesn't seem to stop her from uttering some witty banter because the story asks for it. When I would've lost an entire planet of people which had my family on it I would've been pretty down and really depressive I think. In the end she's handing out medals to Luke and Han (and now Chewie too, thanks Ady!!) like it's one of the biggest victories of all time but she's just lost everyone she cared about...
I know that this is Star Wars, but I'm just afraid that stretching the emotional and dramatic aspect of the destruction of Alderaan will only raise the question: "Why does nobody really seem to care after a couple of minutes into the movie after the destruction??"
I love SW, as a movie of course, and I'm just hoping that adding a thing like this wouldn't detract to much from the move and create inconsistencies... Great work on the planet being "eaten" away by the laser, though. I wouldn't mind that being added!!
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.
Who's the more foolish... the fool who makes or the fool who buys this crap?
- George Lucas on the 2004 SE DVD's
And very welcome two cents they are. I know exactly what you mean. I really hate to say it, but it seems the emotional detachment Lucas was lambasted for with the prequels is just as present in the original movie too. I mean, you're absolutely right; Leia's muted response to Alderaan being destroyed is really rather unsatisfactory. If you've heard the Radio Drama, you'll know what real pain should sound like with those wonderful scripts and performances.
However, as much as I find the emotional impact wanting, there is also the fact that Star Wars is a war movie, and the mentality of war and in the underground movements wasn't dissimilar to what we see. Loss was a daily occurrence, where anyone could disappear or die at any time, and you had to carry on regardless. As the exchange goes:
Rebel Commander: "When we heard about Alderaan, we feared the worst"
Leia: "We have no time for our sorrows, Commander."
So I can let it go with that perspective. But then, as you said Darth Plagueis, if I'm trying to imbue more emotional impact will it fit with the responses of the characters? Well, I guess we'll have to see. I must say I'm inclined to remove the planet surface shots, even if they work visually, as I like the momentum of the entire planet being obliterated by the shockwave uninterrupted.
People used to ask Adywan why he didn't put his extended Alderaan destruction into his final edit and he gave much the same response (that and it being a bit of joke anyway what with Jar-Jar dying and all).
He ended up sticking it on as a deleted scene.
Yeah, I've considered a few inserts - the planet surface, ships trying to get away, and even cutting inside one of the ships to see an older Bail Organa being whisked away - and although I'd love to see most of these, I just feel they interrupt the momentum. So I'm most probably going to stick with just the extended destruction from the shockwave.
Besides, we might have found a pretty organic way of including some Alderaan footage, including a shot of a young Leia and Bail Organa on the balcony of the palace looking over the landscape, without it interrupting anything. And it also hints at Leia being Force-perceptive, which I like. It involves her in her prison cell dreaming or thinking about Alderaan, trying to think of something pleasant. But as she thinks about it, the Death Star intrudes into her dream/daydream, and then we cut to the Death Star having arrived at Alderaan.
I know, that is some mighty tinkering, but as an experiment I think it's worth trying. And it hints at Leia's Force sensitivity, but only if you know she is, which I really like.
It could be argued that it was just a mental technique for blocking mind probes (a bit like in Dune), only later would it be contextually seen as a possible manifestation of her Force sensitivity.
There are nice discussions of this type to be found on this thread for ESB and ROTJ (though it's become more of a ROTJ idea thread recently) : http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/topic/8826/
and this one for the prequels : http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Prequel-Radical-Redux-Ideas-Thread/topic/9911/
Like this thread they are for basic ideas though the prequel one is specifically for really pushing the boat out with imagination.
It would be nice to see what you can add to those ongoing discussions.
Darth Venal said:The problem is a dramatic one, however. Alderaan blowing up in Star Wars barely registers to me, it never did, and main reason for that is that we never see anything of it, or anyone on it who is being destroyed. Sure, blowing up a planet is dramatically impressive, but it's impersonal, and so, for me, emotionally lacking.
That's exactly the reason why I like the idea to change the name of Naboo to Alderaan in the prequels. I don't really care about the problem of two senators from one planet (Padmé and Bail Organa). It would just add that emotion to the scene because you see so much of the planet in the prequels.
Yeah, they could have just used Alderaan in the prequels I'm sure, and it would have had far more relevance to those of us waiting for the backstory. To new viewers who don't have the history of knowing the OT first it doesn't matter so much, but it really would have been better. And they're practically the same planet anyway, small, Earth-like planets which are peaceful.
Bingowings said:People used to ask Adywan why he didn't put his extended Alderaan destruction into his final edit and he gave much the same response (that and it being a bit of joke anyway what with Jar-Jar dying and all).
He ended up sticking it on as a deleted scene.
And I see Asteroid-Man has used it in his edit. I am definitely recommending it be removed. ;) The scene is fun, and a good nod to the Jar Jar hatred, but the thing that gtes me about it is that they're just standing there (for what seems like an inordinately long period) looking at the wave of dirt coming at them. Surely they'd react even slightly...
Bingowings said:Monroville said:just don't cut to the planet surface; as it stands, I think it looks quite impressive and could be a better alternative to what is in ANH:R. The main thing is that it doesn't come across as taking 10 minutes to a day for Alderaan to blow up, just to show Michael Bayhem in each of the cities (like what we get nowadays).
Seeing the green shockwave go around and the planet blowing up would still give it some kick while still happening quick enough to keep with the original's pace.
I also like the idea of seeing ships (like hundreds) leaving in the left side of the screen, on the opposite side of the DS and then getting wiped out from the shock wave, though at the same time Alderaanians probably wouldn't know what hit them (DS pops up, lots of people say "what the hell is that thing?!"; green laser comes out; blammo)That doesn't explain the cries of terror that Ben goes on about though (if we take him at his word).
If the planet was snuffed out in one swoop without the Alderaanians knowing what hit them how could they be distressed enough to communicate fear to him via the Force?
Well, I'm sure the people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima had enough time (like a millisecond or two) to be surprised or shocked even though the atom bomb blast was near instantaneous. Same with Alderaan - they wouldn't really know what the Death Star was, since Tarkin never made contact nor responded to any. Still, some small moon you never seen before pops up in Earth's orbit, a few people are going to point up in the sky wondering just what the hell that thing is.. until the big green laser beam comes down. Then there would be just enough time for "a million people all crying out" (or whatever Ben said).
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
Same with Alderaan - they wouldn't really know what the Death Star was, since Tarkin never made contact nor responded to any
That isn't true. It's obvious that Bail Organa and probably his government knew what the Death Star was, after all it was his daughter who'd just risked her life to steal the plans to it, and he is one of the founding members of the Rebel Alliance. That much is fact presented in the other movies, without needing to delve into extra material. The Death Star wasn't a complete unknown, the Rebel Alliance knew about it. And seeing as Bail Organa and Alderaan's Rebel members knew what it was, they very well would have tried to get people away. This is hardly making stuff up. And besides, you're missing my point anyway, which is that I'm extending the destruction of Alderaan and so there is most definitely time for people to cry out in terror. But even without this, I don't agree with your suggestion that nobody knew what was coming.
And throwing that back to the catastrophes in Japan, they did have air raid sirens. People might not have known the scale of the devastation about to be wrought on them, but they knew something was coming. And again, catastrophic as those two bombs were, they didn't instantly vaporise everything. These things take a little bit of time to spread, and in that time, there is panic and terror. Obviously the blast is incredibly fast, but you make it sound like it instantly destroys everything in a millisecond, which is just not true. Do you really think one laser beam from the Death Star, however powerful, would cause an entire planet to go kaboom in a split-second? Yes, I know, this is sci-fantasy, and "anything" is possible, but I don't buy an Earth-like planet exploding at that speed. Anyway, you're obviously not going to agree, so let's leave it there.
Just to add to that last comment, even Enterprise had the last season arc showing Earth being attacked by a giant laser, so to speak. All that could do, as catastrophic as it was meant to be, was gouge a long mahussive trench into the Earth's crust....and even the new Star Trek movie required a certain amount of digging in order to carry out the destruction....