When did the prequels officially suck? — Page 2

rcb said:

i know its hated, but you'd be surprised at how much the star wars fan base has grown.

 

I am not surprised how much the fan base has grown. And are they even fans of the same things? The only thing that connects the old films from the new is the title. I admit there is room for both kinds of fans, but the problem is the distinguishing lines get blurred, especially with the banishment into obscurity and unwatchable quality that the OOT has suffered.

What do fans of the originals when they were still really the originals, and the fans who started out with the PT have in common? From where I am standing, they pretty much hate each others movies. Sentiments on one side is, "Wow, the PT blows, the SE blows, I sure wish I could enjoy the originals on DVD" and the sentiments on the other is "I wish this old geezer would shut up about his dumb movies, the SEs are the same things anyway, only better. I like the changes, I wish they'd change them more, then maybe A New Hope wouldn't be such a bore to sit through." How are these two camps fans of the same thing?

When one side will not hesitate to say TPM is the worse SW movie ever made, with AOTC and ROTS following closely behind, and the other side says ANH was the worse SW movie ever made with ESB and ROTJ following closely behind, could they be much different? fanbase  has grown? What base? Is there even a base anymore? If there is a base, it is the one that is being catered to, and not the other.

Baronlando said:

It feels like The Clone Wars audience is becoming the "base", I guess. It's sort of a "hit" by kids/cable/cartoon/not-Hannah Montana standards. (Way to aim high.)

and who was the original 'star wars' trilogy aimed at?

i don't know of too many 'adult's that still talk about it.

mostly kids that saw it and grew up with it..(i was 10 when i saw 'star wars')..

what's your point?,

nothings changed.

later

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negative1 said:

and who was the original 'star wars' trilogy aimed at?

I don't know who it was aimed at, but what I've read about its initial reception indicates that it was popular with teenagers and young adults in addition to the kids, and it even did okay by the critics. ANH and Empire have since become two of the most highly-lauded films of all time. Clone Wars has no traction whatsoever amongst adults, was panned by critics, and will never even approach the level of respect given to the OT.

Conclusion: The Original Trilogy was aimed at general audiences, and Clone Wars was aimed at kids and die-hards. If the CW generation is the standard-bearer for SW fandom now, it truly is a different body than the OT fandom that appeared 30 years ago. It is a body grown not from wide and enduring appeal, but from a targeted attempt to capture a very specific demographic.

Edit: Found this on Wiki: "It was targeted to a specific audience for specific reasons. We accomplished that mission, and it will continue in another medium." Was ANH "targeted to a specific audience for specific reasons," or did Lucas just want to make a great film?

Has it occurred to anyone else that Lucas might be really gunning after kids because they're the only ones who won't criticize him?  All of his adult fans pick apart his crappy movies, so his excuse is, "Well, they're for kids.  You shouldn't be watching them anyway."  And then, just to prove his point, he starts making Star Wars even more kid-specific.  It's typical George behavior:  "If you don't want to play by my rules, you can't be in my club anymore.  Nyah."  It was the same thing with the OOT.  "If you don't want to watch my movie the way I want you to watch it, then you can't watch it at all.  Nyah.  Well... fine, I'll let you have it, but only this copy I found that my dog took a leak on.  Hope you like piss!  Nyah!"

Maybe the Clones Wars thing isn't personal and is strictly business, but I think Gaffer was pretty close to the mark with the "fine, I'll let you have it, but only this copy I found that my dog took a leak on..." There is really no reason for the original to not have been restored and released on DVD long ago. If Star Wars was made by any other film maker, any other company, you know the original unaltered trilogy would have been released years ago and would be flooding the bargain bins right now, just like Terminator 2, Alien, and other films that have been really popular, probaby would have even had a two disc sets loaded with extra features. Because that is the kind of treatment such popular movies get in the real world. That is marketing, if it will sell, get it out there! George knows marketing very well, so well, that he has reached a point where he can bend the rules as he likes. If he doesn't want the release the originals, he doesn't have to, even if it would be a hot seller and make a lot of money, he can afford to hang onto it and let it rot. The GOUT really feels like a "Fine! Take it and shut up!" sort of thing. I can't help but feel that George resentfully released the GOUT, and released it in the quality he did out of resent. "If you want to watch these shitty versions of incomplete films, then fine, but your gonna have to watch em in shitty quality too. Ha!" There is really no other logical explaination for it. Even some pretty crappy movies get multiple versions of them released on DVD. None of us here are naive enough to believe that the 1993 LD masters are the single best quality copies of the films left lying around, the very idea is laughable, yet this is the official reason why we were given copies saturated in dog piss. If you're gonna be a liar, you need to be a better liar than that.

If I were George, I wouldn't lie about it, I'd just be honest. In fact, I would have sold the GOUT without the 2004 SEs, maybe even with no disc at all, and instead designed it like on of those old pop-up books, and when you open the DVD case, a hand with the middle finger sticking up would pop-up. Oh, that would awesome. Whoa... just imagining myself with such power as George has me thinking evil diabolical thoughts, no wonder the guy is an asshole. In that position it would be kind of a waste not to be an asshole.

For me, the prequels sucked after about the 10th or 11th viewing of TPM.  I made it about 3-5 viewings before I really started cringing at everything Jar Jar said (which really ruined it for me).  Around the 11th viewing, when I began forcing myself to sit through it in an empty theater, I started to realize how bad it was.  After that, I completely gave up even trying to defend it.

I even said something about it once in the car with some close friends.  I said something about it sucking badly and one of them said "For you, that's saying a lot".  I'm a HUGE fan among my friends, so for me to have said that was huge.  Unfortunately, it was completely true.

negative1 said:

and who was the original 'star wars' trilogy aimed at?

i don't know of too many 'adult's that still talk about it.

mostly kids that saw it and grew up with it..(i was 10 when i saw 'star wars')..

 

The OT was aimed at a general audience.  Hence why a 10 year old was able to enjoy it in 1977 and the same kid who is now 40 can still enjoy it today.  The kids that were 10 when TPM came out are now 19.  Ask them if they still like TPM.  I'm betting the majority say it's crap.

I saw Jedi when I was 6 and I still love it today.  I don't watch the OT very much, but I don't watch the PT at all.  When I do see the OT, I stop and watch it if I can (having a two year old makes watching them kind of difficult).  When I see the PT, I change the channel or turn the TV off.

The Prequels do not hold up.  The originals do.  That's the point.

With regards to which audience the PT or the OT were aimed at... a good analogy is Bugs Bunny.  Those old cartoons enjoyed commercial success because of the overwhelming audience of kids.  And they were designed to capitalize on that.  But they were also made intelligently so that an adult could enjoy them too - they were crafted with general quality in mind.  They contained jokes that only adults would get.  The OT was like that... obviously their financial bread-and-butter was kids, but everyone could appreciate and enjoy them.  But when an adult sees a PT movie, they generally see that as a movie, it's crap.  I agree that the "it's for kids" is just an excuse.  Nobody tries to make crappy movies, even for kids.

Scruffy said:

negative1 said:

and who was the original 'star wars' trilogy aimed at?

I don't know who it was aimed at, but what I've read about its initial reception indicates that it was popular with teenagers and young adults in addition to the kids, and it even did okay by the critics. ANH and Empire have since become two of the most highly-lauded films of all time. Clone Wars has no traction whatsoever amongst adults, was panned by critics, and will never even approach the level of respect given to the OT.

i guess, my thought was, it too was aimed at children ... because judging from the marketing

perspective, that's what sold the movie to the studio, and other investors, in looking at the

long term profits... granted (answering your latter question), yes i'm sure a young george

lucas might have put art before business, but realized one had to go with the other..

also, why are we leaving out the prequels? they were aimed at the same teen/young adult audience,

also.........and i hardly think that based on the subject matter they were strictly for kids... yes

clone wars appeals to kids, no doubt about that, but the tv show has shown a much wider

range and appeal.....if you're only looking at the movie, then yes i agree with you..

as far as artistic merit goes, only 'star wars' has cemented itself in the history books,

i don't think empire or jedi will ever get that recognition (and rightfully so)....as they

really don't measure up to the original, and will always be in its shadow as for as

originality and impact... when you say 'star wars', everyone knows what it means,

what it stands for, etc......... empire and jedi will NEVER have that impact or recognition

outside of science fiction fans...

 

Conclusion: The Original Trilogy was aimed at general audiences, and Clone Wars was aimed at kids and die-hards. If the CW generation is the standard-bearer for SW fandom now, it truly is a different body than the OT fandom that appeared 30 years ago. It is a body grown not from wide and enduring appeal, but from a targeted attempt to capture a very specific demographic.

you're again, neglecting the HUGE impact of the SE versions, and the prequels, as there are

now a large audience of fans that have grown up with those versions, that differenciate themselves

from the OT fans... and why not? they'll grow up following the clone wars, the live action show,

and whatever else comes with.....they'll have more books/comics/videos to discuss and continue

the star wars storylines, long after ALL the OT fans have died out........ seriously, i doubt i'll be

talking/discussing/posting on this board  when i'm in my 60's/70's or older (no offense to any

older fans)..... life is to short to be stuck in the past discussing a 30 year old trilogy, when there

is plenty of newer related material going on...... yes, i agree the demographics might be different,

but that doesn't mean that one would be considered 'better' or more 'worthwhile' than the other..

 

Edit: Found this on Wiki: "It was targeted to a specific audience for specific reasons. We accomplished that mission, and it will continue in another medium." Was ANH "targeted to a specific audience for specific reasons," or did Lucas just want to make a great film?

only he would know..... but he did establish some trends, and although science fiction was around

a lot longer before it came out, star wars did establish some pop-culture credibility, and some crossover appeal, that those movies did not have before..

(much like 'raider's brought a lot of new fans to the serial-action genre back)..

interesting points, and good questions along with discussion,

keep it up!!!!

later

-1

negative1 said:

also, why are we leaving out the prequels? they were aimed at the same teen/young adult audience,

also.........and i hardly think that based on the subject matter they were strictly for kids... yes

clone wars appeals to kids, no doubt about that, but the tv show has shown a much wider

range and appeal.....if you're only looking at the movie, then yes i agree with you..

Actually, I think that may have been one of the PT largest problems. It didn't seem to know what audience it was aiming for. On one hand we have a silly childish atmosphere, poop jokes, several cartoonesque characters, comedy acts in the middle of an intense battle (what a drag... and fortunately I forgot most the rest of Threepio's routine). Then we have the main character not just killing bad guys, or even just good guys after he turns, but we have him casually killing women and children, at one point even killing a room full of children who know him and look up to him. Yeah, that subject matter most definitely is not for kids, but it is surrounded by subject matter that is most definitely not for adults. You happen upon a lot of movies intended for kids that adults totally get into and enjoy while watching them with their kids, or sometimes even by themselves or with other adults. Then you have kids movies that are so childish only kids can really appreciate them. There are movies I enjoyed as a kid, and watched or tried to watch in adult hood out of nostaligias sake, only to wonder how I had ever thought this movie was cool.

C.S. Lewis, author of The Chronicles of Narnia, among other books, once wrote that he does not believe in writing down to children, because they are smart and don't need to be written down to. He would argue that when writing a story for children, the author should write the kind of story he'd like to hear, not the kind of story he feels a small child might like to hear. By doing this he is far more likely to stumble upon a story that will capture childrens' imaginations than by making up some silly brainless rubbish he himself cares nothing for. Since the publication of the Chronicles of Narnia, they have often been cited as books written for kids, but loved just as much by the adults that read them to them. I think Lewis was onto something with this idea of his. And I think George wrote the kind of story he wanted to hear, rather than one he felt kids wanted to hear when he wrote Star Wars, but I think he wrote a story he thought nine year old boys would love when he wrote the Phantom Menace, then I think he became terribly confused while writting AOTC, as we all know how that one turned out.

 

as far as artistic merit goes, only 'star wars' has cemented itself in the history books,

i don't think empire or jedi will ever get that recognition (and rightfully so)....as they

really don't measure up to the original, and will always be in its shadow as for as

originality and impact... when you say 'star wars', everyone knows what it means,

what it stands for, etc......... empire and jedi will NEVER have that impact or recognition

outside of science fiction fans...

Hmm, not sure I agree with that. I think Star Wars is usually taken as a trilogy, and considered incredible influencial and ground breaking on those grounds. I am not really a film geek or a hardcore writer, but I do have and read books on the subject of screen writing and film history from time to time, and it seems Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are mentioned quite often, especially ESB. I wouldn't hesitate to say that the entire trilogy has cemented itself into the history books and won recognition for artistic merit, and that when people mention Star Wars they usually think of all three films. "I am your father" is probably one of the most recognizable movie quotes from any film ever made, and perhaps one of the most parodied. I'd say that is a pretty good deal of impact and recognition that obviously spans far outside of science fiction fandom. I wouldn't be surprised if "I am your father" is the first line the average person thinks of when they hear the words "Star Wars".

Is this thread about when people realised the prequels sucked or When people Realised George Lucas started to suck.  I would say it was sometime After The last Crusade was released up until the Phantom Menace premiered.

There were some Signs early on Like More American Graffiti, Howard the Duck, and Radioland Murders.  Return of the Jedi was a drop in quality between star wars and empire strikes back.  And except for some Fine moments Young Indy basically bombed and sucked.  I liked Willow but the critics hated it.

The first turd Lucas put out was the holiday special in 1978.  He was also responsible for the awful temple of doom which incidentally is no longer the bastard outing of the Indiana Jones series.  Crystal Numbskulls now is.

Indy IV was the single worst movie i saw in theaters since Ghostbusters 2.  Even worse than the prequels because it ruined an icon.  The only comparison i can make is If Lucas made episode 7 of star wars and crapped all over the characters of Luke, Han and Leia.

At least in the prequels i never cared for the characters or felt attached to them emotionally.  They were cardboard cutouts in a video game cutscene.

I can attribute my 2 biggest cinema dissapointments in my entire Life to George Lucas.  The First is 1999's the Phantom Menace aka the phantom plot movie, and the second is kingdom of the crystal Skull aka Crystal Numbskulls or kingdom of the crystal turd.

I just about walked out of the theater in 1999 when that Racist caricature Jar Jar Binks made his first Appearance.  It was all downhill from there.  I had extremely low expectations for Episodes II and III and still Lucas managed to dissapoint.

And you think the prequels were bad or had cringeworthy Dialogue Clone Wars was the worst piece of trash to ever come out of the star wars canon.  Skyguy, Stinky and Artooie.

Even the bad and campy jokes of the 30's and 40's movie serials pale in comparison to the poor and juvenile jokes of the prequels, clone wars 2008 or Indiana Jones IV. 

You never had Flash Gordon stepping in poo, or making a bizarre love conversation with dale arden while managing to be entirely wooden and creep audiences out at the same time stalker eyes.

I will never pay to see another peice of Lucas modern garbage filmaking again.

He has had way too many chances to get something right and had only gotten worse over time.  He has had like  5 chances to make a good movie.  And yet people still drink the Lucas kool aid.  Ever hear the saying "fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me."

Lets count the times Lucas gave people a pig in a poke and they still showed up for his next serving of table crumbs.

1 Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace

2. Star Wars Episode 2:  Attack of the Clones

3. Star Wars Episode 3:  Revenge of the Sith

4.   Indiana Jones IV: KOTCS

5 Clone Wars 2008

Apparently Lucas is well aware of his shortcomings as a screenwriter and director as he is neither writing or Directing Red Tales.  He will only Executive produce the Tuskagee Airmen biopic.  Even his colleague Spielberg lately had taken up the producers role Giving Trial of the Chicago Seven to Ben Stiller to direct and passing on Directing it Himself.  God knows he certainly deserved a year off from directing after Indy 4 .  That phoning in, ahem i mean film shoot must have been exhausting.

skyjedi2005 said:

Is this thread about when people realized the prequels sucked or When people realized George Lucas started to suck...

Woooohooooo! Another fine post brought to you by Skyjedi.

skyjedi2005 said:

You never had Flash Gordon stepping in poo, or making a bizarre love conversation with dale arden while managing to be entirely wooden and creep audiences out at the same time stalker eyes.

**AGAIN, off topic here, darn, i need to stop doing that..

i'm pretty sure you're talking about the original versions..

but the campy 80's version (with the queen soundtrack) was actually faithful to

the look and spirit of the originals...... the newer tv show was WAY off target (the sci-fi

channel version), but still fun to watch..

and although i'm not sure what you think, but there's a lot of bad acting/dialogue in

every version of 'flash gordon'... so i'm not sure where you were trying to go with that..

maybe a better example would have helped...

later

-1

The term is "nuke the fridge". Same meaning as "jump the shark", but for movies instead of TV shows. It will be obvious to most of you where it comes from.

When did Star Wars nuke the fridge? Ewoks? Jar Jar? Midichlorians? This forum needs the option to create a poll!

Janskeet said:

For me it was after the first 20 minuets of AOTC when I realized this prequel story was going to suck. When was it for you?

 

The prequels started to suck pretty early for me- just a couple of minutes into TPM pod- race. I couldn't believe how boring it was.

Well I was curious to see whether this enormous fan base for the Prequels and Clone Wars stuff really exists. Perhaps I am an old fossil.

So I went to theforce.net which most people seem to think is the definitive fan site, and looked at the forums:

11,000 topics in classic star wars

5,000 topics in prequels

2,000 topics in clone wars

OK, so clearly we must make allowance for the new stuff being newer. Nonetheless, I feel pretty confident in stating that the classic star wars are still more popular than the prequels and clone war things.  (Another data point, box office for the clone wars movie was low).

While it's not surprising that the classic trilogy has the majority of posts, it does blow my mind that in the course of only several months, people have found 2,000 different things to talk about in regard to The Clone Wars movie!  Since I've never seen the movie, I can't say for sure whether or not this is out of the realm of possibility, but it does surprise me that one poorly received, moderate box office success of a movie has nearly half as many topics as the entire prequel trilogy.

The more you know, huh?  ^_~

Gaffer Tape said:

While it's not surprising that the classic trilogy has the majority of posts, it does blow my mind that in the course of only several months, people have found 2,000 different things to talk about in regard to The Clone Wars movie! Since I've never seen the movie, I can't say for sure whether or not this is out of the realm of possibility, but it does surprise me that one poorly received, moderate box office success of a movie has nearly half as many topics as the entire prequel trilogy.

The more you know, huh? ^_~

there's a lot of talk about the tv episodes too, i guess...

that might account for it.

later

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