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Dr. M's Reinventing The Wheel Edition (PAL to NTSC+) (Released) — Page 13

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Dr. M was the creator of this set.  Did you ask him for a copy?

Not sure, but if he does not want to help you with this does not that mean this project is officially retired?

I know that pretty much all the laserdisc rips are now retired and people have been told to basically go out and buy the Gout.

 

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I know that Dr. M has no interest in seeding torrents, but that's all I know.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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 (Edited)

There has been some discussion here as to how the audio should be handeled. I'm a professional audio engineer, and even though I work in music production I'd like to share my thoughts on the video issue with you guys.

In terms of handeling a speed-up (or speed-down in this case) it seems to be an industry standard in authoring that pitch-shifting is actually never applied as it's degrading sonic quality, even the best algos do, with only a few exceptions like for instance the "Lord of the Rings" PAL discs. Since the source in this case is a laserdisc you can be sure that in 1997 they didn't use time-strechting/pitch-shifting back then, they use either resampling or much more likely some analog conversion.

Now, it works like this: Never time-stretch or compress, only resample. If your source is a PAL disc that has been sped up from an NTSC source the audio is already 4,27% faster and therefor higher in pitch.

25 fps : 48000 Hz = (24000/1001) fps : x Hz --> x = (48000*(24000/1001))/25 ~ 46033,966 Hz

Now, at first you need to merely SET the sample rate of the 48000 Hz audio file to 46033,966 and afterwards convert the samplerate back to 48000 Hz. The loss of sonic quality is limited to some upper highs which arguably only audible to infants and dogs anyway. Pretty straight forward.

EDIT: Alright, I just noticed that this project is 3 years old. Anyway, this is how it should have been handled. ;)

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Sure, it's an old project, but you raise some interesting points. Ideally I'd like to split the audio discussion off to the technical forum, but I can't, so I'll continue here...

...pitch-shifting is actually never applied as it's degrading sonic quality, even the best algos do, with only a few exceptions like for instance the "Lord of the Rings" PAL discs.

Actually, there were complaints about the audio quality of the Lord of the Rings PAL discs too. I've been told about a Pro Tools plugin called Pitch 'n Time which is supposedly one of the best algorithms. This was not included in the only listening test I'm aware of; this one from 2004.
Since the source in this case is a laserdisc you can be sure that in 1997 they didn't use time-strechting/pitch-shifting back then, they use either resampling or much more likely some analog conversion.

1. Dr M used the NTSC laserdiscs as the audio source, so it was the correct pitch.
2. The 1995 PAL VHS releases did have pitch preservation applied. So digital pitch shifting did exist back then, although probably in hardware. For example: the Vinyl Touch Pitch Lock DJ tool.  

But yes, I agree that slowing down by resampling is the best way to go when you want to use a higher pitched PAL source in NTSC land. This is how the mono mix restoration was handled (the mono mix was sourced from a PAL TV broadcast and did have the PAL speed up present).

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So I'm just curious. Haven't anyone ripped the LD PCM track and put it together with the official gout DVDs? That should be the best way to go in terms of both sound and image quallity, eh?

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See this thread.

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 (Edited)
Moth3r said:
Actually, there were complaints about the audio quality of the Lord of the Rings PAL discs too. I've been told about a Pro Tools plugin called Pitch 'n Time which is supposedly one of the best algorithms. This was not included in the only listening test I'm aware of; this one from 2004.

Well, PitchNTime is (or was) available as an offline plugin for Apple (back then Emagic) Logic as well, at least on the Mac. However, it's dated. Probably the best algo today is the DIRAC algorithm, which can be found in Wavelab 6 or Prosoniq TimeFactory 2. At least that's what the audio world seems to agree on, I have a licence for Wavelab but I rarely have to use time-strechting anywhere.

As for ProTools, as with the current 7.4 we have quite a few things that are outdated, and the time-strechting algos (even though they newly implemented them in 7.4) are part of that. There's a feature that would be great for multi-track drum editing that's called "Elastic Audio", which basically let's you put up markers at drumhits (or any points you'd like for that matter) and move them around freely, changing the tempo and therefor the timing (read - tightness) of the drummer. I know that some very well-known artists and producers use it, but I think it's still a bit immature. The sonic quality is degraded, and though many people won't notice that it VERY MUCH IS noticable for those of us with trained ears. The problem with Pro Tools is that DigiDesign rarely seem to licence any technology from other companies with maybe more knowhow, they always develop something themselves.

Anyway, for sources like a pitch-corrected stream where there's no NTSC source available I'd prefer to use Prosoniq TimeFactory or Wavelab, it'll do a good job under these circumstances.

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 (Edited)

This projects source was moth3r's pal laserdisc project.  Not the 1997 special edition.

Like he said he used the vhs audio from 1995 in the uk for the english audio, and the video came from a french laserdisc which has a french dub he did not use.  There were subtitles in the lower black area but he removed them i suppose.

The speed up and pitch is actually worse on the pre thx pan and scan uk release because the master was an ntsc same as the us laserdiscs. no to mention the discs were major rotters.  They never got a definitive edition in the uk on laserdisc, the closest thing they got was the pal executor vhs boxset.

In 1995 Lucasfilm i believe had a seperate pal Master created to fix said issues, yet that was not used in 2006 for the euro pal dvd releases,lol.

And Also as Moth3r stated Dr.M used the lossless PCM from the us definitive collection laserdisc.  The mix was created in 1993 specifically for The THX laserdisc program and was not any of the theatrical mixes of the trilogy.  The only theatrical original release of the old trilogy that had a digital mix was Return of the Jedi in 1983 and few theaters had the equipment.  Star Wars mix was redone in 1985 in digital and therefore was a new mix not just digitizing of the analog mix.  Empire Strikes back as far as i know is the same 35mm mix up until the 1993 redo but was digitized to be played back digitally in later laserdisc releases.

The Gout had the 1993 mix crappily mixedown to dolby 2.0 for space considerations.  Had this been an anamorphic release as of now on blu ray there would be plenty of space for the Full PCM track.  Though i would imagine Lucas would have burtt cook up a new mix DolbyTrueHD instead.  Which is probably what will happen when the Crap 2004 edit is released on Blu Ray.  Unless Lucas is as lazy as he was with the gout and just re-uses the same dolby digital 5.1 EX tracks from the dvd.  On which a new hope's mix was messed up, the music was dialed down during the trench battle to it almost being inaudible and the surround channels were improperly swapped.  So much for a deliberate creative decision. 

The 1997 mix had none of these issues, and is well done for a late nineties  job.  But Still Tom Christopher and Burtt even though the new mix was sonically improved .  All they did was get a better frequency to noise ratio response.  and Of course audio technology could now reproduce the mix the same way it would have been heard by the mixers.  Therefore things that had been hidden before or were not perfect had to be redone from original master tapes.

1997 mix is almost crazy  the work that was involved going all the way back to the 6 track master that the 4 track master was created from, and all the original sound effects library reels had to be tracked down.  We are talking about a brand new mix from scratch including going back to the studio master tapes for the lso music.  Unlike the 1993 which was a sweatening and blending of the first three theatrical mixes for star wars form the four track masters.  a generation removed from the orginal six track master.

There are so many different mixes for these films a book could be written about the changes and the differences, and creation of new mixes.  Star wars alone had what 3 original mixes, plus the 1985, the 1993, and the 1997 and 2004.  Wow that makes seven frickin mixes. ouch,lol.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Still interested in this set... anyone have iT?

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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bkev said:

Still interested in this set... anyone have iT?

 

 Ditto here.  I'm very much a noob - can anyone direct me on where to go to get this set?

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Thanks, but... which?  All of them?

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em