logo Sign In

Help Wanted: A pitch-corrected Star Wars for PAL?

Author
Date
Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

As far as I know, it’s possible to do - so, here I came to ask. Not being in PAL-land, I would normally care less; but, after seeing Ady’s clips and how the brillaint John Williams soundtrack seems butchered IMO, I thought something should be done. Anyone interested?

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

Author
Time
Post link
You would physically have to change the frame rate.

NTSC is 29.9 and PAL is...25 I think.

You'd have to take 29.9, and add about 5 frames more... (slowing it down).

Then you'd convert it to PAL and it would, in theory, be the correct pitch...


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

Author
Time
Post link
Star Wars is 23.976 fps natively.

I have the means to easily do the correction though I would need a source first (Audacity will do it just fine).

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

Author
Time
Post link
how do they make it for NTSC? Duplicate frames then?

Why'd they film it at such an odd framerate?


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: GoodMusician

Why'd they film it at such an odd framerate?

They didn't, that's the standard framerate for motion picture film.

Okay, well, to be totally accurate, 23.976 is the rate at which film is played back to be transferred to NTSC video, which runs 29.976fps. The reason for that is simply that it's easier to generate 6 "new" frames per second than it is to generate 5.976 "new" frames per second. Film is generally natively shot and screened at 24fps.

I used to be very active on this forum. I’m not really anymore. Sometimes, people still want to get in touch with me about something, and that is great! If that describes you, please email me at [my username]ATgmailDOTcom.

Hi everybody. You’re all awesome. Keep up the good work.

Author
Time
Post link
The UK VHS releases in 1995 had pitch corrected audio. I used the audio from these coupled with the video from the French laserdiscs to make my PAL laserdisc transfer DVDs.

To clarify the framerates, film is, and always has been, 24fps.

The PAL system is a 50Hz signal, 50 fields per second, equivalent to 25 frames per second.
To convert from 24fps to 25fps is a simple case of speeding the film up. Most of the time this is unnoticeable. (Alternatively you can keep it 24fps and mess around with non-standard pulldown and blended fields - but this looks a mess, and thankfully is very rare).

NTSC was originally 60Hz, but this was reduced to 59.94Hz when colour was added. That's 29.97 full frames per second.
A speed up from 24fps up to 29.97fps would be unacceptable, so instead a system of repeated fields was devised. You cannot simply repeat every fourth frame because the jerkiness would be a problem. What happens is every 2 film frames are split over 5 fields (3:2 pulldown). This keeps the jerkiness to a minimum (altough PAL users, who are used to smooth motion, can sometimes see the effects of pulldown on motion and camera pans.) You end up with 4 film frames spread over 5 video frames, equivalent to 4/5 * 29.97 = 23.976fps. (No-one ever complains about the slowdown from 24 fps to 23.976fps!)

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Not as rare as I'd like. :/

A lot of anime seems to be telecined when converted to 25 fps. and I have yet to find a reliable way to undo the damage.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

Author
Time
Post link
I really can't stand the audio on the 2004 PAL version. The voices sound weird. So I made a 720x576 23.976 fps/25 fps 2:3 pulldown version just for fun. I don't think it looks like a mess (not on my system anyway). You get the best of both worlds, the higher PAL resolution and the correct NTSC audio! A dvd player will simply recognize it as a PAL dvd but it plays at NTSC speed.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
To clarify, I meant that hard telecined pulldown with field blending looks a mess.

I don't know exactly how you made your version, but I imagine (hope) that the actual encoded frames are progressive and the non-standard pulldown is implemented through repeat field flags?

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Yes, I encoded the file as a progressive 25 fps 720x576. I used DGpulldown to turn it into 23.976 fps progressive file with 25 fps 2:3 pulldown flags. It's very easy to do with the "custom" setting set to "23.976 --> 25" and takes only a few minutes.
But I don't have it anymore, I watched it once and decided I don't want to see the SE ever again.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
Hold on, surely your original encode was progressive 23.976fps 720 x 576, and DGPulldown applied flags to make it display 25fps. To be DVD compliant, I would have thought the file after pulldown has to be 720 x 576 and 25fps. What authoring software did you use, and did it complain at all?

(Or, was the MPEG-2 25fps to begin with, but you told DGPulldown to assume it was actually 23.976, so it re-wrote the frame rate and the repeat field flags at the same time? That would make sense.)

I'm wondering how a progressive scan DVD player would play such a DVD, and if any stuttering is noticeable.

The alternative to pitch correct (time compress) the audio, also has drawbacks with audible digital "stepping" artefacts. Although Belbucus tells me the Serato Pitch 'n Time plugin for Protools has an extremely high quality algorithm.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
I used dvd-lab pro v2.? It didn't complain at all. It recognized the file as PAL, 25 fps 2:3 pulldown (but it still is 23.976 fps progressive). If I open a 23.976 fps progressive NTSC file with pulldown in dvd-lab it is recognized as NTSC, 29.97 fps 2:3 pulldown.

I got this method from boon23. I think he used it to turn a PAL movie into NTSC without having to mess with the audio. I think he resized the NTSC video to 720x576 at 25 fps and applied 2:3 pulldown to 29.97 (setting: "25 --> 29.97"). It was a long time ago in a thread here at OT.com but I can't remeber what thread.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Arnie.d
I used dvd-lab pro v2.? It didn't complain at all. It recognized the file as PAL, 25 fps 2:3 pulldown (but it still is 23.976 fps progressive). If I open a 23.976 fps progressive NTSC file with pulldown in dvd-lab it is recognized as NTSC, 29.97 fps 2:3 pulldown.

I got this method from boon23. I think he used it to turn a PAL movie into NTSC without having to mess with the audio. I think he resized the NTSC video to 720x576 at 25 fps and applied 2:3 pulldown to 29.97 (setting: "25 --> 29.97"). It was a long time ago in a thread here at OT.com but I can't remeber what thread.


I turn PAL movies into NTSC, not vice versa. And, yes, it is done by resizing the video and the using DGpulldown to create the framerate of 29.97fps. Works like a charm, but the PAL speedup remains of course, since I don't change the audio and timings are equal.

Nothing about fanediting is easy.

Author
Time
Post link
Not long ago I reposted to a.b.starwars boon23's NTSC conversion of Returning To Jedi.
I was scratching my head trying to figure how it had the same number of frames (encoded, progressive) and same running time Jambe Davdar's original PAL
Now it makes more sense!

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: boon23
Originally posted by: Arnie.d
I used dvd-lab pro v2.? It didn't complain at all. It recognized the file as PAL, 25 fps 2:3 pulldown (but it still is 23.976 fps progressive). If I open a 23.976 fps progressive NTSC file with pulldown in dvd-lab it is recognized as NTSC, 29.97 fps 2:3 pulldown.

I got this method from boon23. I think he used it to turn a PAL movie into NTSC without having to mess with the audio. I think he resized the NTSC video to 720x576 at 25 fps and applied 2:3 pulldown to 29.97 (setting: "25 --> 29.97"). It was a long time ago in a thread here at OT.com but I can't remeber what thread.


I turn PAL movies into NTSC, not vice versa. And, yes, it is done by resizing the video and the using DGpulldown to create the framerate of 29.97fps. Works like a charm, but the PAL speedup remains of course, since I don't change the audio and timings are equal.

Yeah, I said turn PAL into NTSC but I screwed up the resizing part. "I think he resized the NTSC video to 720x576 at 25 fps and applied 2:3 pulldown to 29.97" should be "I think he resized the PAL video to 720x480 at 25 fps and applied 2:3 pulldown to 29.97". Sorry about that.

Anyway if you want to turn PAL into NTSC or NTSC into PAL without changing the audio this pulldown method is the way.

BTW, if you have a 23.976 progressive file with pulldown flags and you want to remove the pulldown flags for editing or something you can use DGPuldown also and set the custom setting to "23.976 --> 23.976" and away are the pulldown flags.

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
This seems obvious to me and I'm sorry if it's already been thought of but I haven't seen it posted...

If you want to fix the speedup of PAL audio (which I do sometimes notice), you don't have to change the framerate at all; you can simply rip the audio and use some decent audio processing software to pitch-correct the sound WITHOUT changing the rate or length.
Author
Time
Post link
Hey guys, what is actually AviSynth's ConvertFPS doing ?
I usually "fix" this pitch problem with Avisynth

AssumeFPS(24, sync_audio=true)
ConvertFPS(25)
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Mojo_LA
If you want to fix the speedup of PAL audio (which I do sometimes notice), you don't have to change the framerate at all; you can simply rip the audio and use some decent audio processing software to pitch-correct the sound WITHOUT changing the rate or length. Originally posted by: Moth3r
The alternative to pitch correct (time compress) the audio, also has drawbacks with audible digital "stepping" artefacts. Although Belbucus tells me the Serato Pitch 'n Time plugin for Protools has an extremely high quality algorithm.
@Pittrek: ConvertFPS will most likely damage your video (by adding a blur or "tear" to some frames). If you are looking to convert the framerate and keep the same duration, the DGPulldown method is preferable IMO.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
How would those artefacts affect a ProLogic decoder?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link
"...but, after seeing Ady's clips and how the brillaint John Williams soundtrack seems butchered IMO"

Are you sure about this?

It doesn't make sense that he spends all that time creating his definitive version and yet perpetuates the incorrect audio. I haven't gotten around to watching it, which is why I am asking you and why I am scratching my head in disbelief

@ General
For the record, the percentage of normal adults who can hear the effect (particularly on voices) of speeding up a film to 25 fps is HIGH. What is more accurate is that too many people in PAL land are in denial about what they are hearing. If you are skeptical, just do a quick A-B of your favorite actor.

One reason I am posting on this topic is that I've been on the fence concerning which DVD/HDTV sources I should adopt for my own project.

Frame rate has been foremost on my mind.
Track the Star Wars Prologue fanedit at
Digital Fanedits
Author
Time
Post link
In his preview clips, he used PAL.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em