Help with synching PAL GOUT to the 77 stereo mix

Author: Luminous being
Date: 17-Apr-2007, 9:44 PM

Author: Luminous being
Time: 17-Apr-2007 9:44 PM
Post link

Hi. After about 6 months of debate I finally bought the 2006 DVD thinking that if I did not i would only regret it. But if i watch the 2004 I feel guilty because they are not the original version and when I watch the originals the I think I could be watch them in much better picture and sound quality. So the only way forward seems to be to de-SE the 2004 DVD. However for someone who has never burnt anything outside the kitchen other than a few mix CD's it seems a bit ambitious. So before that I will turn my attention to the other thing that bothers me about the 2006 DVD's:Star Wars: Star Wars is not even the original version.

So like others I plan on synching the GOUT picture to the original stereo sound, so on may 25th I can actually watch the film that is 30 years old not a alternate version of it. I plan on doing one of two things:

1. Have GOUT picture with the 77 stereo, 77 mono, 85 stereo, and possibly the 93 THX and 93 commentry all 192kbps Dolby digital 2.0. I riped the 2006 audio with DVD Decrypter and it was just less than 0.2GB and the video is about 6.5GB so it should come to less than 7.5 GB so will fit on Dual layer dvd. (correct me if i'm wrong)

2. Split the film into 6 parts (corresponding to the original reel changes) and have the same audio mixes but in PCM apart from the commentry which doesn't really need PCM. And then put each reel on a single layer dvd.
All the sound mixes in PCM obviously would not fit on one dual layer DVD and if you are going to split the film up the it makes sence to put it on cheaper SL DVD's and reel changes seem the best place to cut the film.

If I do the second option it would be easy to make a single DVD with any one of the audio mixes

(I know Belbucus is almost finished restoring the mono mix so I will probally leave it out until that is finished)

Now for the questions:

1. Does using Dual layer discs make things more difficult? I can foresee there being problems at the layer change.

2. I ripped the audio of the 2006 DVD's with DVD Decrypter and got a VOB of about 190MB but by my calculation it should be smaller:
(192kbps)x(116min)x(60seconds)=1336320 kilobits= 167.04 Megabytes

3. DVD's can have a max bitrate of 9.8Mbps do that include all audio tracks or just one?

4. After looking around the forums my plan is:

1. Put my official 2006 GOUT ANH DVD in your drive. Start up DVD Decrypter.

2. Go to Tools -> Settings, click the IFO Mode tab, and make sure that File Splitting is set to None. Now go to Mode -> IFO.

3. Click on the Stream Processing tab, check/tick the Enable Stream Processing box, uncheck/untick all the streams except for the first one (video). Select the Demux button.

4. Click on the Decrypt button to start.

5. When finished, I should now have a demuxed video file:
C:\STAR_WARS\VIDEO_TS\VTS_03_1 - 0xE0 - Video - MPEG-2 - 720x480 (NTSC) - 4~3.M2V

Although I have the audio mixes on VHS (other than the commentry) I not have the equipment to transfer captuture the audio. So..
6. Ask nicely if someone can direct me to where I can get the mixes

From here I'm not sure where to go different people seem to use different programs and I don't know what would be best (and cheapest) for my project, so what would be your advice?

Finally a quick random question, when SW was shown on ITV with the mono mix in the mid 80's did it say episode IV A new hope?

Author: Moth3r
Time: 18-Apr-2007 4:46 AM
Post link

Originally posted by: Luminous being
1. Does using Dual layer discs make things more difficult? I can foresee there being problems at the layer change. Some people have problems with dual layer discs; burn failures, freezing after layer break, disc not recognised and so on. (And many people seem to have a problem spelling "dual" which makes me cringe every time!) I suggest you try burning a dual-layer disc and checking it plays OK before making a decision.

Originally posted by: Luminous being
2. I ripped the audio of the 2006 DVD's with DVD Decrypter and got a VOB of about 190MB but by my calculation it should be smaller:
(192kbps)x(116min)x(60seconds)=1336320 kilobits= 167.04 Megabytes Firstly if you rip just the audio you should get an AC3 file, not a VOB. Did you tick the "demux" option for the audio you want? Your calculation is correct but note Windows will report the size as around 159MB (difference between binary and metric).

Originally posted by: Luminous being
3. DVD's can have a max bitrate of 9.8Mbps do that include all audio tracks or just one? That's the maximum video bitrate; the total bitrate including video, audio and subs must be less than 10.08 Mbps.

Originally posted by: Luminous being
4. After looking around the forums my plan is:
... I should now have a demuxed video file:
C:\STAR_WARS\VIDEO_TS\VTS_03_1 - 0xE0 - Video - MPEG-2 - 720x480 (NTSC) - 4~3.M2V

I thought you were using the PAL disc? Keep in mind that the '77 Dolby Stereo mix that Belbucus captured is synched to the NTSC GOUT. You will either need to re-encode the video to NTSC or speed up the audio to PAL speed.
Originally posted by: Luminous being
6. Ask nicely if someone can direct me to where I can get the mixes

Try the links here; if they're dead post a reply in the thread asking nicely for help.
Originally posted by: Luminous being
From here I'm not sure where to go different people seem to use different programs and I don't know what would be best (and cheapest) for my project, so what would be your advice?

Depends on what exactly you will be doing, but you should be able to accomplish something with free tools.
Originally posted by: Luminous being
Finally a quick random question, when SW was shown on ITV with the mono mix in the mid 80's did it say episode IV A new hope?

Yes.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author: Luminous being
Time: 18-Apr-2007 7:21 PM
Post link

Originally posted by: Moth3r

Originally posted by: Luminous being
2. I ripped the audio of the 2006 DVD's with DVD Decrypter and got a VOB Firstly if you rip just the audio you should get an AC3 file, not a VOB. Did you tick the "demux" option for the audio you want? Yes I did, I have ripped again to make sure. I get 3 files a VOB file called VTS_3_1, a IFO file called VTS_3_0 and a text document called VTS_03 - Stream Information. I tried getting just the video from my 2004 Empire (using the meathod described above) and I get the same thing. Shouldn’t I get a mpeg 2 file?

Originally posted by: Moth3r
That's the maximum video bitrate; the total bitrate including video, audio and subs must be less than 10.08 Mbps.

Sorry, what I’m getting at is if I have 2 PCM tracks at about 1.5Mbps. Does video + track 1 +track 2 + subtitles have to be less than 10Mbps or just video + track 1 or track 2+ subtitles have to be less than 10Mbps? I think it the latter but want to make sure.

Originally posted by: Moth3r
I thought you were using the PAL disc? Keep in mind that the '77 Dolby Stereo mix that Belbucus captured is synched to the NTSC GOUT. You will either need to re-encode the video to NTSC or speed up the audio to PAL speed.

Sorry again I am using PAL (damn copy and paste errors), I’ll be changing the audio to PAL speed.

Originally posted by: Moth3r
Depends on what exactly you will be doing, but you should be able to accomplish something with free tools.

Having slept on it and then read the thread you linked to I think I will be splitting the film by reels. As then I’ll have to reduce the maximum bitrate which will motivate me into converting the film to anamorphic (using step 3 in ADigitalMan’s guide). So what do you recommend I do after collecting my audio and anamorphic video?

Finally a not so quick question, do you know when the original reel changes are? If you have that widescreen pre-ANH telecine transfer you may be able to see the Q-dots.

Thank you for all your help.
Luminous being

Author: Moth3r
Time: 19-Apr-2007 7:22 AM
Post link

Originally posted by: Luminous being
... I get 3 files a VOB file called VTS_3_1, a IFO file called VTS_3_0 and a text document called VTS_03 - Stream Information. I tried getting just the video from my 2004 Empire (using the meathod described above) and I get the same thing. Shouldn’t I get a mpeg 2 file? Yes, the demuxed video file should be an MPEG-2 elementary stream with extension M2V. DVD Decrypter can be a bit funny with the demuxing options. I think you need to separately select the demux option for each stream you want (you need to have the relevant stream selected in the box above when you select the demux button). All I can suggest is to try it again.

Originally posted by: Luminous being
Sorry, what I’m getting at is if I have 2 PCM tracks at about 1.5Mbps. Does video + track 1 +track 2 + subtitles have to be less than 10Mbps or just video + track 1 or track 2+ subtitles have to be less than 10Mbps? I think it the latter but want to make sure. I'm pretty sure it is the former. So while 1 PCM track is fine, 2 or 3 may start to starve the bitrate available for the least-compressible video frames.
Originally posted by: Luminous being
Having slept on it and then read the thread you linked to I think I will be splitting the film by reels. As then I’ll have to reduce the maximum bitrate which will motivate me into converting the film to anamorphic (using step 3 in ADigitalMan’s guide). So what do you recommend I do after collecting my audio and anamorphic video?

I would recommend you use AviSynth to carry out the processing necessary to convert to anamorphic, and your MPEG-2 encoder of choice - CCE or TMPGEnc (pay), QuEnc or HC (free).
Originally posted by: Luminous being
Finally a not so quick question, do you know when the original reel changes are? If you have that widescreen pre-ANH telecine transfer you may be able to see the Q-dots.

I don't know off hand, but I'm sure there will be someone on this forum who can tell you.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author: Darth Mallwalker
Time: 19-Apr-2007 1:18 PM
Post link

According to Belbucus, this is the end of a reel.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9890/02401400jh7.jpg

Are 70mm reels the same length as 35mm ?

According to morgands1, Tarkin's line "... crush the rebellion with one swift stroke" is the end of a 70mm reel.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author: Luminous being
Time: 19-Apr-2007 8:41 PM
Post link

Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
Are 70mm reels the same length as 35mm ?

Depends how you measure length both are about 20 minutes, but due to the larger frames 70mm is obviously longer measured in feet. I would expect (but am not certain) that both 35 and 70mm print will have the reel changes at the same time as it would save work in figuring when the Q dots should go. I watched these two scene and both have about a second of "useless" footage for the footer so I confident I now know:

At the end of reel 2 is the Tarkin line
At the end of reel 5 is the frame you posted

Now all I need is when reels 1, 3 and 4 end. Thanks a lot

Originally posted by: Moth3r
Yes, the demuxed video file should be an MPEG-2 elementary stream with extension M2V. DVD Decrypter can be a bit funny with the demuxing options. I think you need to separately select the demux option for each stream you want (you need to have the relevant stream selected in the box above when you select the demux button). All I can suggest is to try it again.

I de-tick the "copy IFO files" in the IFO settings, now I get a "movie clip" file with a icon that says mpeg so I think this is right. On the audio side if I somehow manged to get a ac3 file.

Author: Darth Mallwalker
Time: 20-Apr-2007 9:17 AM
Post link

"Now, don't you forget this!"