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.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *) — Page 43

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Originally posted by: Laserman
I repeat - straight captures of the DC and SC are done, they are archived and finished, so purists can rest happy - we will not be 'cutting our negatives' so to speak.
The straight laserdisc captures will stay as they are in all their glitchy glory, matte lines, jump cuts, miscoloured sabres, garbage mattes totally untouched. This was always one of our goals.
i.e. The transfer is a straight calibrated capture from the X0 so it can be watched without side changes and looks better than the laserdiscs did for anyone except the X0 owners!
Regarding these straight captures - I assume your "archival" format is something lossless like huffyuv. Have you done any processing to these versions (i.e. IVTC)?

Could you be persuaded to run off an encode to a "distribution" format like MPEG-2 - before you finish the final cleaned-up version? I'm thinking of the SC in particular. I know I'd be very interested in getting the best possible pre-THX version - without DVNR smearing and trails - in order to replace the worst affected motion scenes on the GOUT DVD. I'm sure others would like to see this as well.

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They are in lossless Huffyuv and the only processing done was an IVTC pass to get them back to 24fps progressive.
Re the pre THX versions (like the SC) we are doing a lot more processing on them to try and get the scenes ready to drop them into the X0 capture to replace the DVNR affected scenes.
We should have some stuff on the site within the next week or so (it's a balancing act between writing site stuff and getting the project done) showing that exact process on some of the SC footage.
We currently have a 2 stage food chain for the SC, basic cleanup and noise reduction and then the 'blackmagic' process to combine various sources to get a really clean detailed version. We don't want to go too far in stage 1 and end up losing the detail as we need it for stage2.
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Spend the time getting the first part of the project (A New Hope) done, then you can write up details of how it was done on the site after that.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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Originally posted by: tweaker
I forgot that, being hardcore fans, you'd be archiving both versions "Both versions"? That has been my point there entire time, that there is only one version. And Laserman, I'm aware you're doing it both ways, and I have been for quite some time - I just don't understand why. By the way if you took what I said in context, you would have realized I was remarking that the matte boxes (not the lines) are barely visible on the DVD. But dress it up how you might, it doesn't alter the fact you're using today's technology to edit yesterday's movies. I never saw Babe Pig In City... but I remember when I saw the original Babe, because I wanted to have pork-chops!

Anyway, you yourself said that you've thought of colourizing the black R2D2 - and I suppose somehow this is still different from colourization?
They weren't a 'necessary' by product, just an unwanted one.
They were both - they were unwanted, but necessary for the special effect.True the matte lines were somewhat visible at the cinema ... 1: However, they were never intended to be an integral part of the film, 2: they are akin to a processing error, or a scratch on the film
Let's see: #1. Well intention does not guarantee performance. The best intentions in the world don't necessarily make right. Imagine going through an old film scene by scene and adjusting colour, brightness and contrast to make it more consistent, and then saying "this is obviously what they would have done if they could have, they obviously intended to have their shots look a little more consistent". While you're at it you could say "And they obviously intended it to look cinematic, which is difficult these days since widescreen subtly makes people feel the movie being cinematic, so we'll convert it to widescreen - which is what they would have done, if they'd made the movie today".

With today's compositing techniques the matte boxes would have been avoided entirely. With today's compositing techniques they never would have used a black R2, they would have used green-screen. With today's compositing techniques they wouldn't have had black matte lines either. With today's compositing techniques they could have removed the speeder wheels digitally. With today's technology, they wouldn't have made the movie they way they made it in 1977.

Your project is supposed to be a preservation project, and as I understand it you feel that Lucas can make changes to his films - but that he should also preserve the OOT, correct? Well that's the way I feel; and if some people want the 1997 SE preserved as well - well then Lucas should preserve it too. Maybe if I lent you my copy of The Terminator you could digitally paint out the wires connected to the flying HK's, and make the stop-motion animation look a little more fluid? Of course, if they could paint out the wires in 1984 they wouldn't have shot the shot in the same way - the lighting, placement of the camera and amount of fog was carefully used to make the wires as invisible as possible. What about the wires in the levitation scene in The Exorcist... they painted those wires the colour of the background to try and avoid them being visible - but I'm sure digitally painting them out would be a good idea, because "they were never intended to be an integral part of the film, they are akin to a processing error, or a scratch on the film, i.e. something that may have been unavoidable, or missed, but definitely unwanted"? Or how about digitally adding their breaths to make it look more consistent - never mind that they had to actually refrigerate the set so that their breaths would show up on film - they look inconsistent, and so you should fix that by digitally creating their breaths.

Maybe I'm wrong... and all these things *should* be fixed. But I didn't make the movies and so I certainly wouldn't go through and fix them myself. I can't understand - and if I can't I'm sure Lucas doesn't - how you, Laserman, can spend so much time and effort preserving the OOT from a laserdisc cap, and then go and make some of the exact changes that Lucas made to the Special Edition. No wonder he actually wonders if people really want the OUT - or if they want a *fixed* version. And to make matters worse, so many people complained about the production errors with the 2004 version, however when they made it they rushed it ahead of schedule because of piracy... and so I understand that the errors made for the 2004 version are largely the result of there being so many "Five Star Special Edition" pirated copies of the SE on eBay back then, and Lucas just wanted to get the damn thing out before everyone had one. Imagine if you will that 18 months from now the OUT is released fully remastered to HDDVD and BluRay. With no technical glitches repaired. Do you mean to tell me you would then take it apart and spend days or even weeks fixing them?
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Why the hell do you even care what we do, DanielB? That's like asking a classic car buff why he spends every minute of his free time fixing up an old wreck when he could just go out and buy a fixed-up car. It's a hobby! It's something we enjoy doing. It's the reason any fan editor does anything on this site. We do it because we enjoy it. Damned if we have to sit here and discuss the legitimacy of why we do what we do with people like you.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Well at least I now know what the word "troll" truly means....

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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Yes colouring a few panels that were meant to be blue is different from colourising a film that was never meant to be in colour.

Visible garbage mattes were not *necessary* they could have been avoided even in 1977, they certainly were not meant to be visible. They are highly visible on the GOUT, go calibrate your TV.

As I said, my changes are for me, and I am restricting them to things that were inarguably not meant to be seen on screen. This is different to making new *creative decisions* which is what you are implying. Most of the 'extrapolations' you are making are changing creative decisions.
Others may decide to make all sorts of things including total re-imaginings, that is fine by me. As long as the original is preserved then people can do whatever they like for their own viewing pleasure, it doesn't hurt anyone else.

And Laserman, I'm aware you're doing it both ways, and I have been for quite some time - I just don't understand why.
Then you must have trouble reading, I spelt it out in detail in the last post, and in many previous posts.


Your project is supposed to be a preservation project, and as I understand it you feel that Lucas can make changes to his films - but that he should also preserve the OOT, correct? Well that's the way I feel


Good then we agree on something.

If you have any real questions I am happy to answer them, but I'm not going to answer any more of the type that I have already answered ad nauseum. Please re-read the posts in the thread, it is all covered in great detail.
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And yes if a restored OUT was released on HD-DVD and still had those obvious glitches, I would set about fixing them for my own viewing pleasure.
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boris, you don't get it and I don't think you ever will. Cleaning up a movie and doing color correction is not the same thing as changing a scene (Han vs Greedo), adding a scene (Jabba in ANH), or adding frivolous items to a scene. Sure, most of the frivilous items don't change the story, so why put them there? The Han/Greedo scene does change Han's character, no matter how much people say it doesn't.

The point is that doing a straight digital restoration and claiming that the 1997 SEs are the same thing as a digital restoration is just plain false.

You're right about one thing though. GL should release the 1997 SE for the people that want that version. Maybe one day we'll get a giant box set that'll include every version of Star Wars ever released. Of course, Lucas will have to rerelease it every year as he makes more and more changes.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: Laserman
And yes if a restored OUT was released on HD-DVD and still had those obvious glitches, I would set about fixing them for my own viewing pleasure.
Well I put it to you, that those glitches may not have been intended - but that it was never intended for home viewers to go through the film frame by frame.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Originally posted by: boris
but that it was never intended for home viewers to go through the film frame by frame.


The problem is that they're obvious. You don't have to go frame-by-frame to see them.

BTW, a good indicator that the matte problems weren't a necessary by-product of the SFX technology of the time: Look at similar shots of the various ships flying around. You don't see the bad matte issue on them. Just on a couple of particular shots. Somebody screwed the pooch.

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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: Laserman
And yes if a restored OUT was released on HD-DVD and still had those obvious glitches, I would set about fixing them for my own viewing pleasure.
Well I put it to you, that those glitches may not have been intended - but that it was never intended for home viewers to go through the film frame by frame.


Just to play Devil's advocate, the bastard is right.

Boris, as perhaps the one person left here who doesn't hate you, may I humbly suggest you create a thread where the merits of fan preservations can be debated, rather than muddying up the good folks of X0's thread?
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If I didn't see the glitches at normal playback speed, I wouldn't fix them - I'm not bothering to fix any glitches I don't see in normal playback.
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OK, Boris, I understand what you're saying and how you're feeling. The X0 is a preservationist's project and to be honest, according to your definition of preservation, they have already achieved that. The laserdisc caps of the DC and the SC have been preserved and will hopefully be available in the near future.

However, the team feels that some obvious technical flaws need addressed and wish to correct them. Matte lines, R2D2's colors in space, etc etc. Since special effects have gone through a digital renaissance in the past decade a lot of these compositing shots look bad and some people would like for them to be "fixed". We could philosophize ad naseum about whether or not we're any better than George Lucas for correcting old shots, but 1) create a new thread please, and 2) according to what's been said, there will be two versions of the X0 project: the direct to video raw caps of the laserdisc and a slightly restored version.

Now I don't see what your problem is? Yes, they're altering the film, but unlike George Lucas, they're offering the original version as well. So, we have both a "fan edit" - for lack of a better word - and a preservation of two versions of the laserdisc, and I honestly don't see what the problem is if they want to change a few things.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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The easiest way to resolve all of boris' concerns is for boris to buy himself a Pioneer HLD-X0, a top-tier capture card, learn how to make flawless captures, and get to work on his own project.

Otherwise, it doesn't matter at all what boris thinks or says. 'Cause even I am in a better position to tell the X0 Project people what to do than he is.
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I think Boris (or anyone starting from scratch) would be better off using the DVDs, rather than using the LDs and buying a $?,000 LD player.

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Originally posted by: Mielr
I think Boris (or anyone starting from scratch) would be better off using the DVDs, rather than using the LDs and buying a $?,000 LD player.

Ah duh. However you just explained why the X0 project is so special. No one else is ever going to do what the X0 team has done...


I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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Originally posted by: Mielr
I think Boris (or anyone starting from scratch) would be better off using the DVDs, rather than using the LDs and buying a $?,000 LD player.


If the SC or any version without DVNR was released on DVD that would be true, but if you don't use the other laserdisc versions then you are stuck with 4 eyed stormtroopers and the smearing and trails.
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This is where X0 really stands to gain over the GOUT, which can never be better than the '93 LD master. Anyone who's seen both the pre-THX and THX LDs (or even just DVD rips of them) can see that each of them have aspects that are closer to the original film than the other. The black magic process (among others) is a way to bring those aspects together in an attempt to get closer to the OUT than the GOUT.
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Are there any X0 vs. OUT DVD comparison captures?

Originally posted by: vbangle
Ah duh.
There's no need to be impolite. I am respectful to everyone on this board (even those who don't deserve to be treated that way).

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Originally posted by: Mielr
Are there any X0 vs. OUT DVD comparison captures?


http://www.x0project.com/media.php

The four test shots are screenshot comparisons to the TR47 laserdiscs...if you got a hold of the new DVD, you might be able to make a rough comparison. Only problem is that the screen captures have been resized (I believe).
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Originally posted by: Mielr
Are there any X0 vs. OUT DVD comparison captures?


We are putting together an article right now that will have some comparisons of the GOUT (with DVNR) footage vs our SC cleaned up captures.
Should be up in the next fortnight.
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What exactly is the "black magic" process?
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Originally posted by: Laserman

We are putting together an article right now that will have some comparisons of the GOUT (with DVNR) footage vs our SC cleaned up captures.
Should be up in the next fortnight.

Thanks- I'm looking forward to it!