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Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound? — Page 3

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Many thanks, THX for re-posting. I simply got more out of what you quoted this time, even though I read it last time. I'm still not sure if the other mixes will be available but the original stereo and the 1993 remix.

As for how to identify the start point, I would recommend simply ripping the GOUT AC3 file to disc. Place it in the first audio track in Womble. Then load in your preservation mix in the second audio track. Play, and nudge it left or right one frame at a time (trimming the starting frames if necessary) until it comes into sync. Mute the original and export the modified preservation mix to WAV. It will add/strip the frames in the export process and otherwise leave the audio untouched.

Unfortunately, Womble is only accurate to the frame, and not to the millisecond like Vegas. But will anybody notice? As long as it is accurate to the frame, it's pretty much unnoticible to anybody.

The most accurate way to sync would be with a multi-track audio tool like Vegas. The drawback here is that you would have to convert the GOUT AC3 to WAV first (unless there is a plugin/newer version that lets you place a stereo AC3 file directly into Vegas as a track). Such a conversion could hose the accuracy of the reference file.

I'd recommend the Womble approach (those guys need to start paying me for promoting their product so much).
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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You got more out of it reading a second time ?
Well then, maybe the third time's a charm.

Pay close attention to the highlights I've added:
Originally posted by: Belbucus
I have done a full digital transfer of the DC/Faces audio with side change gaps patched to sample accuracy - upconverted to 48k in ProTools HD, which I have found to be a very transparent scheme. I have not yet verified that it is identical in timing to that of the DVD, but it would be unlikely if it was not. And, if for some reason it WAS off, that can be fixed.

I also have a cut a very high quality analogue transfer of the Dolby Stereo (35mm) mix from P&S Laserdisc – also at 48k. It also has all side change gaps patched, as well as all previously documented problems fixed. It has not been timed to match the DC/Faces track yet, but I will probably get to that as soon as I finish up with the monomix . There has also been some interest expressed in the ’85 remix , which is relatively low on my list, but I will get to it eventually.

Originally, the plan was to prepare all 4 mixes to run in sync with video from the DC/Faces Laserdiscs, and make them available to the group. Hopefully, the DVD will be identical - if not, it can be adjusted.
DC/Faces audio + Dolby Stereo (35mm) mix + monomix + '85 remix = 4 mixes

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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The operative word being "eventually" on the '85 mix.

Your emphasis helped explain something that I still wasn't getting until now ... that the '85 mix is different from the original stereo mix. After all the sites I've read and the two years of hanging out here, I only now get the fact that those were different mixes. I love learning new details about old info. Many thanks for repeating yourself ad nauseum until I got it, because this is good info to understand.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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I have direct 16-bit 44.1khz digital copy of the 1989 laserdisc mix if that's of any good to anyone? Not sure precisely which mix this IS, but it has the missing tractor beam line, but not the close the blast doors.

If anyone needs it please PM me.

Cheers,

- John
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That'll be the '85 mix. I wouldn't mind a copy and I'm sure belbucus would probably like one.
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Originally posted by: seventiesfilmnut
I have direct 16-bit 44.1khz digital copy of the 1989 laserdisc mix if that's of any good to anyone? Not sure precisely which mix this IS, but it has the missing tractor beam line, but not the close the blast doors.

Now posting to alt.binaries.starwars
Expanded size: 1.2 GB
Compressed with your favourite lossless codec (FLAC, APE, SHN, etc) will fit nicely onto a single CD-ROM.

THX to John for sharing this with us !

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Would somebody be willing to post this to a sharing service (yousendit, rapidshare, megaupload,etc) for those of us who can't get it from the newsgroups?

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

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I second that request.
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Belbucus: Please let us know when you have that Definitive Collection PCM soundtrack sync'd up perfectly to the video on the new official Star Wars DVD set and burned onto a dual-layer DVD.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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You're welcome guys - hope it comes in handy. I'd love to see it incorporated into the GOUT release.

It was a straight 16-bit 44.1khz digital transfer from my LD player into Adobe Audition - I didn't use any normalisation or any other filters. It is how it's meant to sound. Unfortunately there's not much of a dynamic range compared with the 1993 mix, but it's still pretty good quality.

Thanks for putting this onto the alt.binaries.starwars Darth Mallwalker

- John
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Originally posted by: Dunedain

Belbucus: Please let us know when you have that Definitive Collection PCM soundtrack sync'd up perfectly to the video on the new official Star Wars DVD set and burned onto a dual-layer DVD


It's essentially ready to ship. (It will comfortably fit on a single-layer DVD.) It is currently in the form of a Sound Designer II file (proprietary to ProTools) - I would propose converting to WAV or Aif for mass consumption.

I will happily send out some discs, but hopefully one or more recipients could make it available via ab.starwars and/or to one of the free sharing services mentioned above.
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Belbucus: When you say it will fit onto a single-layer DVD, I assume you mean just the PCM soundtrack? Surely the unaltered original trilogy video for each movie from the new official DVD set combined with an uncompressed PCM soundtrack takes up more space than a single-layer DVD? Since Moth3r was saying that even 2 hours of PCM soundtrack would take over 1.2 gigs just by itself, and the running time is over 2 hours from start to finish (complete end of credits) for some or all of the trilogy. And the menus on the new DVD's look and sound great, so those might as well be included, too (just blank out or disable all text menu entries to foreign language tracks, or make them all point to the PCM track).

Also, might I suggest that the method used by seventiesfilmnut of not applying any normalization or filters be used when transferring the soundtrack, so as to preserve exactly how the PCM Definitive Collection soundtrack is supposed to sound. How is the synchronization going, how closely are you able to match it up to the exact same soundtrack synchronization to the video that the official DVD set has?

Thanks for the effort on this soundtrack project, Belbucus.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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Originally posted by: Dunedain
Belbucus: When you say it will fit onto a single-layer DVD, I assume you mean just the PCM soundtrack?
Of course. If you need the video to go with it, you gotta buy the DVD!

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I already bought that the day it came out, I got the exclusive metal collector's box set, very nice looking. What we're talking about is a fan modification (for use by existing owners) by someone who knows how to do such a thing to transfer and then to perfectly sync the full PCM soundtrack (as opposed to low bit-rate DD) with the video. Which I have no idea how to do, nor do I have a DVD burner with which to do it.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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Originally posted by: klokwerk
Would somebody be willing to post this to a sharing service (yousendit, rapidshare, megaupload,etc) for those of us who can't get it from the newsgroups?
Somebody has done.

After decoding the FLAC files, you'll end up with seventiesfilmnut's original WAVs:

One.wav D7C7D154
Two.wav 47EEB4DB
Three.wav 911171EA

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Originally posted by: Belbucus

It's essentially ready to ship. (It will comfortably fit on a single-layer DVD.) It is currently in the form of a Sound Designer II file (proprietary to ProTools) - I would propose converting to WAV or Aif for mass consumption.

I will happily send out some discs, but hopefully one or more recipients could make it available via ab.starwars and/or to one of the free sharing services mentioned above.


Belbucus, will you be including the original stereo and mono versions on the disc too?

Thanks for all your hard work!

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Originally posted by: Dunedain

Also, might I suggest that the method used by seventiesfilmnut of not applying any normalization or filters be used when transferring the soundtrack, so as to preserve exactly how the PCM Definitive Collection soundtrack is supposed to sound.

It is an exact clone of the Laserdisc digital audio stream upconverted to 48K. Nothing has been altered.

Originally posted by: Dunedain

How is the synchronization going, how closely are you able to match it up to the exact same soundtrack synchronization to the video that the official DVD set has?


Synchronization is done. Once lined up, it will synch to the DVD audio exactly sample for sample from start to finish. The only thing I am unable to confirm is if the DVD audio drops any samples at the layer change. If so, the synch would have to be readjusted at that point. As for the initial lining up of the file with the DVD, I have no definitive suggestions. Even if the AC3 delay value is applied as Moth3r suggested, there’s no way to know if the actual AC3 audio starts exactly at the first audible bit of the Fox fanfare or has some indeterminable amount of silence that precedes it. I would suggest that if there is any way to audition the AC3 audio and the new audio side by side, that it could easily be arrived at by ear. A popular method is to: using headphones, listen to the first source panned to one ear and the second source panned to the other. Slide the source to be synched to match the other. When you get the two exactly in synch, the combined sound should appear to becoming from a point dead center between the ears.

Originally posted by: Mentor

Belbucus, will you be including the original stereo and mono versions on the disc too?


The mono version is close to the end of an extensive restoration effort – removing noise and replacing sections of missing or deteriorated audio. After that, comes a fairly lengthy process of synching it with the DVD audio. The original stereo is done except for the same process to synch it to the DVD. The DC/Faces Laserdisc audio was fairly quick and easy as it was essentially the same digital file as the DVD and only fell out of synch twice during the entire run. If things turn out to be anything like the experience I had preparing the 70mm to ’93 mix comparison (http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=6501), the synching of both the mono and original stereo tracks will need to be time adjusted in sections of as little as 20 to 30 seconds long for the entire length of the film to achieve an exact lock. It’s a good deal of work, but it goes faster than you would think. If I had nothing but this to work on all day, I could do each one in about a week.
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Originally posted by: Belbucus
I would suggest that if there is any way to audition the AC3 audio and the new audio side by side, that it could easily be arrived at by ear.

Womble MPEG Video Wizard is great for this. It's my tool of choice. If you rip the GOUT AC3 file, and place it in audio track one, then place the PCM preservation in audio track two, you can shift the PCM track left/right (you may need to trim a few frames from the start) until it matches the AC3 perfectly. When it does, delete or mute the AC3 file and re-export the WAV. It will be unmodified except for the trimmed/added space at the beginning.

A trick if you have several wav files (e.g. one from each side of the laser disc) ... synchronize each PCM file to the AC3, knowing you may be trimming frames from the start of each file. Then, when they're all in sync, delete the AC3 file and move every other one of the PCM files into track one. Expand each clip to their maximum size and this should essentially handle all your crossfades for you.

Once again, export the new PCM file you've modified and voila, you've got a perfectly synchronized single PCM file for the whole film.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Thanks for those links Darth Mallwalker! I am currently downloading the files. I've listened to FLAC files before, but I've never joined or converted any of them. Can you tell me what I'll need to do once those files are finished downloading? Thanks in advance.

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

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Just download the appropriate encoder for your platform from here then open up the FLAC and click decode. Once you've done that to all three you can then rejoin then with Soundforge, Audition, or your favourite audio editor of choice. To AC3 them prior to remuxing simply use BeSweet.

“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan

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Thanks boba feta!

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

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Are the seventiesfilmnut files PAL or NTSC? I have them courtesy of Darth Mallwalker and was trying to get them synchronized to the NTSC GOUT, but it doesn't work. When I synchronize threepio's first line, then by the end of side one ("We will then crush the rebellion ...") it is out considerably. I time-stretched the file so that the first and last lines are both in synch, but the middle of Side One is somhow still way off. With the beginning and end in sync, I'm at a loss to understand why the middle would go out of whack like that.

Any ideas?
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: Moth3r
When you ripped the AC-3 off the DVD, you will probably have noticed it had a delay value specified.

For ANH, the delay value is zero. At least, according to my NTSC rip. I haven't yet tried ESB or ROTJ but I expect the same.

Other news: I converted the 2CH AC3 to WAV with PX3 converter and saw there was substantially more headroom in this file than the '85 PCM. This surprised the hell out of me, but there it is.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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What do you mean by headroom?

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.