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Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound? — Page 2

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If you take all the foreign languages and the lego junk off and just have the movie and the menus (I'd leave the menus, they are really cool ), even if there isn't enough room for the PCM soundtrack, there would definitely be enough room on a dual-layer DVD to take the PCM soundtrack and convert it into a straight 448k bit-rate DD 2.0 soundtrack, and then put that on the DVD as your only soundtrack. Which would sound much closer to the PCM track in quality. Then you just have to make sure the sound is sync'd up perfectly with the video, exactly the same as it is currently sync'd on the official DVD set.

Is the PCM soundtrack on the faces laserdisk set identical to the Definitive Collection laserdisk set?

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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I haven't had a chance to listen to these yet, but the consensus seems to be that the DVD audio suffers. I’ve noticed this squashed dynamics syndrome with AC3 tracks on many commercial DVDs but have never heard a good explanation for it. (I always assumed it was a way to increase storage space on the disc, but I’m not sure that make sense in this particular case.)

Anyway, I have done a full digital transfer of the DC/Faces audio with side change gaps patched to sample accuracy - upconverted to 48k in ProTools HD, which I have found to be a very transparent scheme. I have not yet verified that it is identical in timing to that of the DVD, but it would be unlikely if it was not. And, if for some reason it WAS off, that can be fixed.

I also have a cut a very high quality analogue transfer of the Dolby Stereo (35mm) mix from P&S Laserdisc – also at 48k. It also has all side change gaps patched, as well as all previously documented problems fixed. It has not been timed to match the DC/Faces track yet, but I will probably get to that as soon as I finish up with the monomix. There has also been some interest expressed in the’85 remix, which is relatively low on my list, but I will get to it eventually.

Originally, the plan was to prepare all 4 mixes to run in sync with video from the DC/Faces Laserdiscs, and make them available to the group. Hopefully, the DVD will be identical - if not, it can be adjusted.

If anyone has a serious interest in these, let me know.
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Yeah, I think there might be a little interest in these! I'd love a nice digital transfer of the DC PCM upsampled in Pro Tools. I think there are a few of us who wouldn't mind posting this for you to absw, myself included. Bring it on!

You can go about your business. Move along, move along.

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Originally posted by: MoveAlong
Yeah, I think there might be a little interest in these! I'd love a nice digital transfer of the DC PCM upsampled in Pro Tools. I think there are a few of us who wouldn't mind posting this for you to absw, myself included. Bring it on!

Absolutly.

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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Originally posted by: MoveAlong
I think there are a few of us who wouldn't mind posting this for you to absw, myself included.
At least a few. Count me in.
I guess I need to get to work comparing GOUT to the X0 timecode ...

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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I'm dumping the DVD audio into ProTools tonight. I should have some time tomorrow to compare the timing. I'll report back when I've got more.
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" PCM audio is not a legal format."

Uhm...yes, it is.

"If I remember correctly tr47 had PCM captured with coax cables and cowclops v2 has PCM captured digitally. That's why I want to use the PCM audio of cc v2 because I think it's an exact digital copy. I hope someone can confirm this."

I don't know about them, but I captured mine digitally (optical).

"MeBeJedi's ANH prototype (seeded by Blaksvn@myspleen) has a PCM track which he ripped from his Faces set using his Pioneer 701's optical fiber output."

Nice to see someone remembers. //sniffle

It also has my 5.1 soundtrack.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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INTEREST, ARE YOU NUTS! Anyone not interested.....well....I don't want to be mean, so all I'm gonna say is that there are probably TONS of ppl interested! I'm interested in gaining every different (as in diff. laserdisc releases with the same audio mix would be redundant) audio mix ever made for the ot!!!
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Just out of curiosity, I extracted just the video of the NTSC GOUT SW. No menus, no audio... just video. The file is 5.88 GB (6,313,679,944 bytes). So, this does leave a little more than 2 GB to work with, after all. Is this enough room for the whole 48K PCM track?

You can go about your business. Move along, move along.

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A simple calculation shows that 2 hrs (7200 seconds) of uncompressed audio at 1536kbps (16 bit samples at 48000Hz) totals just under 1.4GB.

(or, 1.287GiB if you want to be really pedantic) .

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But what also matters is the maximum bitrate of the video. If it's encoded with a maximum of +/- 9000 kbs and you use PCM audio of 1536 kbs you could get problems with playback.
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Well then, according to Moth3r's calculation, there's plenty of room to leave the great looking and sounding Star Wars menus on the DVD intact and still have the PCM track fit. All you have to do is make sure the video and audio bit-rates combined together that the player has to put out is within what a DVD player can handle. And, of course, make sure the audio from the Definitive Collection is synchronized with the video the same as the official DVD set. I guess if you match this time code that was referred to, you can match it to the precise tiniest fraction of a second.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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OK kids, here it is.

There ARE two points where the DC/Faces audio drops synch with that of the DVD (not including the DVD layer change).

1) The cut from Mos Eisly exterior to beginning of Han’s confrontation with Greedo.

2) Oddly enough, at what would have been the last reel changeover when projected theatrically (probably just a coincidence).

I’ve adjusted the DC/Faces file for both.

The DVD layer change, as with the 2004 DVD, seems to fall at the cut between “Terminate her immediately” and the FALCON in hyperspace.

In preparing this for mass consumption, I have a couple of questions. First, would it in any way make it more convenient to split the file for DVD layers 1 and 2, or should I keep it as one big continuous file? Second, is there anyway to identify an exact start point relative the video for synch purposes? Or perhaps a sample number corresponding to a specific frame?

I should mention that on initial inspection, I’m neither hearing nor measuring any reduction in dynamic range between the two audio sources on this end. The DVD audio measures 4.1db lower than the DC/Faces track but otherwise they seem to be the same.
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I think it's better to keep it as one file.

For synching maybe this helps. It's the first frame of the crawl and the music starts at the same time I think. This is frame number 701 in the PAL release but I think it should be the same number for the NTSC release. Maybe someone can confirm this.

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Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
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Thanks a lot for preparing these tracks, belbucus. I'm particularly looking forward to the Dolby stereo and restored mono mixes. Do you have Neil Bulk's digital capture of the Dolby stereo?

Like Arnie, I recall that TR47/Cowclops v2 was said to have digital PCM, but I'm not certain.
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Might I recommend synching to the timecoded X0 Project? I've checked, and that has every frame that exists in the Faces/DC edition. So it will be possible to exactly identify any points where the synch might go out, and prepare a master list of adjustments, quoting timecode.

The problem with synching to anything else is that there is no easy way to communicate where to make adjustments for the various versions. We assume that the PAL version starts and ends in the same places, but we don't know that.

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Originally posted by: THX

I'm particularly looking forward to the Dolby stereo and restored mono mixes. Do you have Neil Bulk's digital capture of the Dolby stereo?


No I transfered it myself. Side change gaps and flaws were patched using digitally captured sections of the '85 mix. Analogue capture was done off a CLD-97 through a very high end audio chain sampled with Apogee converters.
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This might be a good juncture to bring up a notion that I suggested some time ago. Would there be any interest in adding the tractor beam and blast doors lines back into the DC/Faces mix before I submit it? I lifted these from the center channel of the 5.1 mix on 2004 DVD some time ago with this in mind. I haven’t actually tried to integrate them seamlessly but I’m fairly confident that it can be done.

Opinions? (I’m sure they will be mixed and many)
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Originally posted by: Belbucus
...
is there anyway to identify an exact start point relative the video for synch purposes?
When you ripped the AC-3 off the DVD, you will probably have noticed it had a delay value specified.

Now, as far as I know you cannot specify a delay for PCM audio when authoring a DVD. So, if you take into account this delay by either padding the start with silence, or trimming a few milliseconds from the begining of the file, you will end up with audio that will line up with the video without any modification required by the end user.

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Originally posted by: Belbucus
Opinions? (I’m sure they will be mixed and many)
Make all changes you want . . . but be sure to release the original versions along with your SE.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Well, the '93 mix isn't theatrically authentic anyway, so go ahead if you like. Although it might confuse people more.
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First things first, let's get the exact same Definitive Collection soundtrack currently on the new official Star Wars DVD set, only in pure PCM form this time, synchronized perfectly to the video on the DVD set. Then after that fan edits and such can be done.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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I recommend releasing exactly what is on the discs. Provide the extra tractor beam, blast doors (and, what the hell, "we've stopped") lines in a supplement so that individuals (like me) can mix them in if it suits them. But if you're going to all the trouble to release the LD audio, it should be untouched.

To recap:
1) Were these digital or analog rips?
2) What all mixes are being provided?
mono?
70mm?
1985?
1993?
3) Will they indeed be synched to mux directly with the GOUT M2V file?
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Thanks for all of your hard work, Belbucus. I personally would LOVE an uncompressed original 35mm stereo mix alongside the '93 mix and the PCM mono mix. I'd like to see the original stereo get out there; I've never heard it.

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“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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ADM - I think your questions are answered here:
Originally posted by: Belbucus
I have done a full digital transfer of the DC/Faces audio with side change gaps patched to sample accuracy - upconverted to 48k in ProTools HD, which I have found to be a very transparent scheme. I have not yet verified that it is identical in timing to that of the DVD, but it would be unlikely if it was not. And, if for some reason it WAS off, that can be fixed.

I also have a cut a very high quality analogue transfer of the Dolby Stereo (35mm) mix from P&S Laserdisc – also at 48k. It also has all side change gaps patched, as well as all previously documented problems fixed. It has not been timed to match the DC/Faces track yet, but I will probably get to that as soon as I finish up with the monomix. There has also been some interest expressed in the’85 remix, which is relatively low on my list, but I will get to it eventually.

Originally, the plan was to prepare all 4 mixes to run in sync with video from the DC/Faces Laserdiscs, and make them available to the group. Hopefully, the DVD will be identical - if not, it can be adjusted. and here:Originally posted by: Belbucus
There ARE two points where the DC/Faces audio drops synch with that of the DVD (not including the DVD layer change).

1) The cut from Mos Eisly exterior to beginning of Han’s confrontation with Greedo.

2) Oddly enough, at what would have been the last reel changeover when projected theatrically (probably just a coincidence).

I’ve adjusted the DC/Faces file for both.

The DVD layer change, as with the 2004 DVD, seems to fall at the cut between “Terminate her immediately” and the FALCON in hyperspace.

In preparing this for mass consumption, I have a couple of questions. First, would it in any way make it more convenient to split the file for DVD layers 1 and 2, or should I keep it as one big continuous file? Second, is there anyway to identify an exact start point relative the video for synch purposes? Or perhaps a sample number corresponding to a specific frame?