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Info Wanted: What preservation versions have Duel Layer and PCM? Will be making my own after seeing what works/doesn't work

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Hi gang. New here. Sorry. Some of you might know me at AVSforum and that I am starting a DUNE edit in HIGH DEF using Final Cut Pro.

Anway, I have been reading this forum for HOURS today! Still know jack it seems.

Are there Duel Layer edits with PCM sound out there? The PCM sound on the LD’s blows PCM converted to AC3 away. I know because I participated in my own personal Star Wars Trilogy DVD project.

The Classic Edition looks stupendous, but from what I have read is single layer only…? No mention of sound was ever made.

Having a 95inch screen (single layer stuff typically looks soft or compressed on a large screen), what version is going to blow me away the most? Please forgive me asking newbie stuff, but I cannot read for ten days before asking. I think four hours of reading here is enough.

My hope is to get really great version in Duel Layer and learn from them. Study how they were done and then once DUNE is done, go ahead and see if I can improve upon the Star Wars versions out there.

Thanks much. Feel free to PM or email me if you can help, offer to you know what, etc etc.

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Classic Edition for SW and ESB are single-layer because after you strip everything else off the DVD, they fit comfortably onto one layer. ROTJ is dual-layer inherently, because it's a longer flick, but there's a shrunken single-layer version available on MySpleen.
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Ok, so JEDI is duel layer and the first two single. But do they have have AC3 or PCM Pro-Logic sound? I imagine the PCM was compressed down to AC3, otherwise I cannot imagine how the film with 1.5ms/ps sound could be fit onto one single layer.
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The old TR47 set has PCM sound, but it is single layer.

I know Citizen did a dual-layer set, but I can't recall what the audio situation was.
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My newer set is also PCM but is single layer. Dual layer was not necessary and was disregarded.
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Dual layer and PCM sound were not necessary or wanted for the Classic Editions, since the actual 2004 DVDs are actually of single layer size once you remove all the alternate audio and other crap, and they're encoded with -- wait for it -- AC3 sound.

They're based on the 2004 DVDs, so yeah, single layer and AC3 and Empire and Jedi in particular are flawless. Without flaw.

A Dual layer version of Jedi exists, because it's a longer film and I wanted to preserve the original 2004 version of it. But the single layer isn't yer ugly "looks shrunken" DVD. I defy you to tell the difference, even on a huge screen.
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The m2v file of the 2004 PAL DVD (a new hope) is 5.8 gig.
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Yes, the PAL disc is larger, but the PAL format uses a higher resolution than NTSC - hence the size increase.

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30 fps at 720 x 480 should take as much space as 25 fps at 720 x 576 (unless 30 fps is actually 24 pulldown maybe?). But still, from 5.8 to something like 4 is a big difference even with the resolution difference.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
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OK, now I am confused. The audio mix on the 2004 DVD is a complete disastrer. We all know that. So is that the audio used for the classic edition?

ocpmovie, check your PM's.
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I believe that for SW he used the 85 mix from EditDroid's set (mainly because of some things I noticed that are only absent in that, or earlier, mixes). For ESB and ROTJ he used the 04 DVD mix, which both had no(?) issues, unlike the ANH mix.
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Sigh. I hate having to go into extreme detail like this when people are only interested in saying "it has to be dual layer and PCM" or whatever, cos of course it doesn't.

Aaaanyway, nothing from 2004 was used for Star Wars. It's the stereo and mono mixes combined, the old ones. The 2004 mix wasn't fuckd for Empire or Jedi, so I started using it more. There's a lot of it in Empire and a whole lot for Jedi. So, old stereo, 2004, and "other secret surprises."

All the video for Star Wars was reencoded, and the size came out as single layer, easily. For Empire and Jedi I actually used the 2004 DVDs directly, to maintain the EXACT quality you see there. To get them down to single layer size, there was a slight bit of shrinking, the results of which are not visible in the least.
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Was the "Deleted Magic" dvd single or dual layer. I thought the video looked excellent with hardly any noticeable compression at all. Considering all the extra stuff and the menu designs, it was spectacular. Well done.

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All my discs are single layer.


Thanks for the compliment .... Deleted Magic was my first release though, so the picture quality really isn't that good. =) I've gotten a lot better since then.
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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
30 fps at 720 x 480 should take as much space as 25 fps at 720 x 576 (unless 30 fps is actually 24 pulldown maybe?). But still, from 5.8 to something like 4 is a big difference even with the resolution difference.
Yes, NTSC is 23.976 fps progressive, so the total number of encoded frames should be the same in both the NTSC and the PAL versions. Due to the increased resolution you would expect the PAL video file to be ~20% larger for the same quality.

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PCM is always preferable to AC3 when the original film was not DD5.1 to begin with. PCM is a far more robust sounding format and in the case the of the 2004 DVD's, every person I have blind tested prefers the laserdisc PCM mixes. However, to get good PQ I am willing to sacrifice. After all, I can just make my own version with PCN, right? In fact, I may do just that. They would all have to be duel layer, of course. PCM is a bit hog.
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Originally posted by: Matt_Stevens
... in the case the of the 2004 DVD's, every person I have blind tested prefers the laserdisc PCM mixes.
This has nothing to do with PCM being preferable to AC3. Your blind test proves that the original Dolby surround mix on the laserdiscs is preferable to the new 5.1 mix on the DVDs.

Which I think most people here would agree with, (especially a certain Mr. Bulk ).

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I'm inclined to agree with Matt on this. The quality differences between PCM and Dolby Digital are audible on good equipment (not even great equipment). If the format of the original soundtrack is stereo PCM with Dolby Surround and there's ample space on the disc, I don't see a reason to re-encode it as Dolby Digital. The Dolby Surround mix in PCM format with a Pro Logic IIx decoder is definitely superior to the 5.1 mix on the 2004 DVDs.

I think my dream homebrew trilogy would be ocpmovie's video with PCM audio from the laserdiscs.
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Thankyou, Jay. Glad you got it. Your wish may, in fact, come true.
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I have to agree with Matt and Jay as well. As some of you may know, I was able to create a 5.1 mix of the PCM track, and while it sounded good, it just didn't have the same characteristics of the original PCM, so no, it's not necessarily just the mix that puts one track over the other. The decade-old "DD vs. DTS" debate is a testament to this.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
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TRy using stienberg audio mixing software for your pcm to 5.1 mix ect
The kristhemoviman dual layer version used that software to mix some of the audio
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Oh I fogot they have a 5.1 to DTS plugin also works real nice if used right
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You know, if you used the EDIT button, you'd have half your current post count.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>