The Rise of Skywalker: Heirs to the Throne (WIP) — Page 12

idir_hh said:

It would be cool to see as an alternate version, I guess why not

I think that’s what I’m leaning toward at this point. I’ll tackle the Rey Palpatine+ version of this project first (canon-friendly), and then it would be relatively straightforward to modify that into the Rey Nobody+ version since it’s just dialogue and brief footage replacements combined with removing a few brief moments that are specific to the Rey Palpatine backstory (Rey recognizing Ochi’s ship, Rey telling Palps that her parents were strong, the kiss, etc.)

Still, feel free to vote anyone! I’d like to gauge interest in such an alternative version.

So, full disclosure, the reason that Palpatine+ is winning in the poll is because I also voted for it! Otherwise, it would have been tied.

The reason why I did vote for it is because I uncovered one fatal flaw in the other idea that, opposite of what you’d imagine, has to do with TLJ continuity. In a nutshell, if Snoke is Palpatine, then he should absolutely under no circumstances want to kill Rey so easily. The reason why this works in Palpatine+ is because Palpatine has no reason to suspect who she truly is - for all he knows, his son died at Ochi’s hand and that was the end of it. So she can truly just be a random equal of Kylo in the light. But in the case of Nobody+, Snoke/Palpatine should 100% be on the lookout for an inexplicably powerful Force user to claim, and he’d even know exactly what age they should be.

The only way this kinda works is if you further modify Palpatine’s lines in TROS: “Snoke was my apprentice. I have been behind every voice… you have ever heard… inside your head.” Thus clearly separating them as different people. But even still, you’d expect Palpatine to have notified Snoke of who to look out for. Or, conversely, Snoke would be giving Palpatine updates on this random girl that managed to beat Kylo, and Palpatine would have told him to keep her alive. So you end up right back with the original issue, unless Snoke went rogue for some reason.

So ultimately, I feel like the above line replacement would actually work quite well for Palpatine+, since it helps with the idea of Palpatine not knowing about their dyad in addition to giving more reason for Snoke to not take Rey seriously whatsoever. But most importantly, it means that Snoke can still claim that he bridged their minds.

So, are there any thoughts on the above line replacement? Obviously it would be using the same Palpatine voice clone that I used for a test a page or so back.

So, I’ve commented on this thread before, but not like in-depth depth, well, I’m doing so now. Some of this stuff you’ll probably ignore because you’ve already been there and done it, but I went back to the beginning and read the whole thing, quoted stuff and responded. Overall, this is an AWESOME idea and I’m very looking forward to completion! 😄

Jar Jar Bricks said:

And here is the more “sympathetic” version of Kylo and Luke:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HgkYsih0y1d1D6N3Hfqxvf8jkaN6YCCF/view?usp=sharing

This version hints more at his eventual turn to the light, mostly due to the fact both of his comebacks to Luke are delivered more like delusions he doesn’t even want to believe himself at this point.

The more emotional “I chose power” works best, definitely. I really like this one much better. I thought the first one was great, and didn’t think there was any issue, but hearing this one, wow, what a difference. Plus, with the story arc you’re telling, it works so well with the redemption arc. Definitely this one.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Here’s the current status of the Ahch-To dialogue:

R: “I saw myself on the dark throne. I won’t let it happen. I’m doing what you did.”

L: “I was wrong. Pushing Ben toward that throne was my greatest fear. What are you most afraid of?”

R: “Myself.”

L: “Because you’re a Palpatine? Nobody can claim those the Force made. Only you can choose your belonging. Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost… There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

R: “Leia’s saber.”

L: “She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia feared the darkness in our father, choosing instead to follow our mother’s path. She surrendered her saber to me, and said it would be picked up again, by somebody with the spirit to face that darkness. A thousand generations live in you now, but this is your fight. You will restore balance.”

R: “I can’t get there. I don’t have the Wayfinder. I destroyed Ren’s ship.”

L: “You have everything you need.”

EDIT: An alternative to make things less ambiguous would be:
“Because you’re a Palpatine? The Force chose you, Rey, just as it chose my father. To bring balance to the Force. Some things are stronger than blood…”
But then there’s less character agency and it’s not clear if the Force alone made them (although maybe the second part is a good thing, I’m not sure).

I combined your not as ambiguous and less ambiguous, and added a bit more there to bring it home.

R: “I saw myself on the dark throne. I won’t let it happen. I’m doing what you did.”

L: “I was wrong. Pushing Ben toward that throne was my greatest fear. What are you most afraid of?”

R: “Myself.”

L: “Because you’re a Palpatine? The Force chose you, Rey, just as it chose my father. To bring balance to the Force. Nobody can claim those the Force made. But, only you can choose your belonging. That is your choice. Your destiny. Just as confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. You are a Jedi. If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost… There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Luke: The dark side has failed you, Ben. Like it failed my father.

Kylo: Anakin was weak.

Luke: His love for his family saved him. I wish it could save you, too.

Kylo: I embraced my true nature.

Luke: You chose hate.

Kylo: I chose power!

I think the most effective characterization of Kylo for the trilogy is that he feels inherently unworthy of affection. He admits to being a monster to Rey in TLJ: “Yes, I am”. His mother sent him away because she was too scared to deal with his dark side, which we’ve hinted at in the latest version of Ascendant. Luke, of course, then contemplates attacking him in his sleep because he fears Ben’s dark potential. At that point, he feels as if the only way to feel accepted by anyone is by emulating Vader, and, later, by forging his own new dark path.

As much as Kylo would like to return to his mother (“You can’t go back to her now. Like I can’t.”) he feels that he would be scorned because he’s gone too far down this path by killing his father. So he just goes further down it so he can at least be accepted as valid for once. It’s a self-fulfilling cycle. Yet, at his darkest point where he’s about to strike down Rey, his mother still reaches out to him and accepts him. And Rey, despite initially retaliating in anger against him, reminds him that she also once wished to be with who he really is.

It’s certainly a compelling character arc, but unfortunately it gets muddied by the messiness that is the sequel trilogy.

I know I already quoted the more emotional take on the “I chose power,” above, but I wanted to highlight this as well because I LOVE the dialogue change here because it really shows how deeply you are thinking about the characterization and flow between all three films. I’m really looking forward to the finished results of this. I do think you have a great vision here, and this may wind up being my go-to TROS! 😄

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Speeding the current cut up would probably overcomplicate matters due to the sound effects. I was given a single audio file, not all of the sound effects they used in the fan film.

The way I see it, there are two options here:

1. I can re-edit the fight to only include the most rapid, high-intensity parts. The downside of this is that there will be shakey cam, which might stand out just as much as the slower choreography later on.
2. I can re-edit the “fight” so that Vader is aggressively marching toward Kylo who launches helpless attacks at him that are effortlessly blocked. It would be apparent this way that Kylo is terrified of him. The only reason I didn’t do it this way originally is because it makes Kylo seem particularly weak and also it isn’t much of a fight at all this way.

Can you not just unlink the audio and video tracks so you can speed up the video while not speeding up the audio? I’ve watched the video a few times and while I’m not one who generally cares much about the lightsaber battle (I know, gasp! what kind of Star Wars fan am I?!?), even I noticed that it’s pretty slow. I mean this is Vader and Kylo Ren and there just kinda mosying along with their lightsabers like they’re on a Sunday morning drive. Sorry, not much help, am I?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

The biggest roadblock to this edit is ironically enough a random scene between Finn and Poe. Unfortunately, I’m not sure if it’s possible to change the beginning of parts of Finn’s lines in the scene like I had originally intended due to troubles merging an AI sentence with a regular one. I’m wondering if it all makes enough sense just by reinserting a final line for Finn?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LSooyqxhfp01IBupdWM04zdWoY0Ab5J1/view?usp=sharing

The original final line there was “He wanted her alive”, which Ascendant removes. I’m wondering if replacing it with “The dagger discovered Rey” is enough to clarify that neither Ochi nor Palpatine knew about her existence until he murdered her parents? The problem is that technically the word “discover” could be used in the context of merely learning somebody’s location.

The original Finn dialog is phrased in such a way to give the impression that Ochi’s mission was to find the “little girl” all along. In this edit, his mission is only to find the Emperor’s son for testing, which then escalates to Rey upon her discovery. Or maybe my impression is just because I’m familiar with the original film? I wouldn’t mind some feedback here.

I haven’t watched the original in a few years, and having read through this whole thread and even knowing this plot point when I watched this cut scene with that additional line, it played absolutely like Ochi had just learned there was a child because of the use of the word “discovered.” If it was being used in the context of learning somebody’s location you would need that extra identifier there. On its own, it just comes across as a child’s existence was discovered. This was absolutely perfect. No notes!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Since this edit is, at this point, mostly enhancing Kylo Ren’s character arc, I’m also wondering if I might be able to include a snippet of the deleted Kylo/Chewie interrogation scene that never released. There is a perfect opportunity where Rey is staring up at the Star Destroyer on Kijimi and is clearly hearing/seeing something to let her know Chewie is on that ship, but we as the audience are never given any indication as to what that could be. Here is what I’m thinking in terms of dialogue:

Kylo Ren (AI): Kill me! Kill the man who killed Han Solo!

Chewie roars in indignation.

And that would be it. Short, sweet, and simple. I could even get a maskless version of Kylo to say the line to make it a little more intimate between them.

Since we later see both Chewie and Kylo in pristine condition, we can logically assume that Chewie didn’t start a fight at all, which is yet another step toward Kylo’s redemption.

Any thoughts before I add this to the change-list?

If you could do this, it would be fantastic and would absolutely add to Kylo’s redemption arc.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Which dialogue reads better to you guys?

A: (Kylo) It was Palpatine who had your parents taken. He was looking for your father. But he learned he was a powerless failure. So he gave the order… Palpatine wants one of us to take the dark throne. I’ll come tell you why.

B: It was Palpatine who had your parents taken. He was looking for your father. But your father was a powerless failure. So he gave the order… He sees us both as heirs to the dark throne. I’ll come tell you why.

A was what I had originally had in mind, and B is what I’m considering due to space limitations and general flow.

Honestly, neither. Throughout this thread, I’ve kinda cringed at this bit here because it really doesn’t work. B–which you’ve been using a lot has the repetition of “your father” on top of each other, and A is very unnatural sounding. Trying to workshop it… how about:

(Kylo) It was Palpatine who had your parents killed. He was looking for your father, looking for an heir, but he was a failure. Your mother’s crime? She was his wife. Palpatine wants one of us to take the dark throne. I’ll come tell you why.

I know that “Your mother’s crime? She was his wife.” is off a bit, but I dunno maybe this will work.

If you need something closer to your original:

(Kylo) It was Palpatine who had your parents taken. He was looking for your father, but learned he was a powerless failure. So he gave the kill order… Palpatine wants one of us to take the dark throne. I’ll come tell you why.

Just a few small changes there that make it sound a bit more organic and more clear.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Thought I’d compile all of the dialogue I’m planning on using for feedback before I re-generate some of it:

Dyad Duel:
Kylo: It was Palpatine who had your parents taken. He was looking for your father. But your father was a powerless failure. So he gave the order…
Parent death flashback minus the line about Jakku since Ochi doesn’t even know about Rey yet
Rey: No!
Kylo: So that’s where you are… the Emperor wants one of us to take the throne.
Rey: No…!
Kylo: I’ll come tell you why.

Finn & Poe Scene:
Finn: “He was going to Exegol with Ochi of Bestoon.”
Poe: “Why was Ochi going there?”
Finn: “To bring the little girl he was supposed to take from Jakku, to the Emperor. His dagger revealed Rey.”

I know this is a late, but I do have my suggestions for some of these that I think work better.

The first one, I offered up a bigger change and a slight change:

A: (Kylo) It was Palpatine who had your parents killed. He was looking for your father, looking for an heir, but he was a failure. Your mother’s crime? She was his wife. Palpatine wants one of us to take the dark throne. I’ll come tell you why.

B: (Kylo) It was Palpatine who had your parents taken. He was looking for your father, but learned he was a powerless failure. So he gave the kill order… Palpatine wants one of us to take the dark throne. I’ll come tell you why.

For the last one: “the dagger discovered Rey” is SO much better. The “his dagger revealed Rey” actually comes across more like he knew of her identity because it’s like she was hiding and he was looking for her. Plus, it’s just clunky.

ETA: Continuing to read the thread, and you are junking this whole idea. OK, nevermind, LOL!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Alirghty, I finally have something of substance to share! What do we think of this?

https://youtu.be/v2LSqXSdR18

I realize that it’s a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment, but that was my intention. I don’t think AI video can hold up outside of that. Any feedback would be appreciated here nonetheless.

With how (relatively) easy it was for me to do this, I am wondering if there are any other small moments I can adjust to enhance the film. I’d appreciate any ideas in that regard as well.

That was FABULOUS!!!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

So I’ve just had another stroke of inspiration. There is a long sequence of the Star Destroyers rising out of Exegol’s surface where we can easily insert a Palpatine AI voice saying whatever we want. This would ideally further tie in with Poe’s AI voice explanation of the Sith fleet from later in the movie. Here is how this looks in Ascendant:

Kylo: “You’re just a ghost. In a rotting clone. What could you, give me?”

Palpatine: “Everything. A new Empire… (huge silence as ships rise). The might of the Final Order will soon be ready. It will be yours, if you do as I ask…”

Those final two lines are said from off-screen anyways. So anything really could go before it. I’m thinking of something like the following, since Poe will already be explaining where these ships came from later on:

“Everything. A new Empire. The Sith Eternal has cloned an army, bred for obedience. The might of the Final Order will soon be ready. It will be yours, if you do as I ask…”

The Sith Eternal is also never name dropped in TROS, so this also helps with worldbuilding. The Final Order is just the fleet, whereas the Sith Eternal cultists are supplying the clone troopers to man it.

Again, fabulous idea. Love it!!

So, two final things.

1.) I voted in the poll and if you recall things I’ve said elsewhere in this thread, there was no way I was voting for any version of this that excluded the Rey/Ben kiss, so yeah, I voted for the other one. Yeah. I do think it’s an interesting idea/concept and that dialogue was really good, it’s just not my jam, personally, if I don’t get my Reylo.

2.) No to the midichlorians. The reason The Bad Batch and The Mandolorians keep saying m-count instead of midichlorians is because despite that the PT has had a resurgence overall in love in the SW fandom, the overriding thought about midichlorians is that they suuuuuuuuuuuck, and that idea should have never seen the light of day. I will be very surprised if we ever see the word midichlorians uttered in canon SW again.

A lot of what you mentioned there are older concepts. To my knowledge, these are the current status of each line for more accurate feedback:

Palpatine: “Snoke was my apprentice. I have been behind every voice, you have ever heard, inside your head.” (I may save this for only the other edit idea, just gauging feedback)

Palpatine: “A new Empire. Manned by legions of clones. Bred for obedience. Awaiting a worthy heir. It will be yours, if you do as I ask…”

Vader Duel
Kylo: You were never real.
Vader: And yet your fear remains. We both know who is more powerful…
They fight. Kylo loses
Vader: Your mind dwells on your failure in this place. You are unworthy!
stab
Vader/Palpatine in unison: You are no Sith.
Kylo: I know.

Luke and Kylo discussion
Luke: The dark side has failed you, Ben. Like it failed my father.
Kylo: I’ve surpassed Vader.
Luke: His love for his family saved him. I wish it could save you, too.
Kylo: This family made me what I am.
Luke: You chose hate.
Kylo: I chose power!

Dyad Duel
K: I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it. I needed you to see it. Who you are.
R: You’re lying.
K: You were right. Your parents were no one. They chose to be. To keep you safe.
R: Don’t!
K: You remember more than you say. I’ve been inside your head.
R: I don’t want this!
K: Remember them. See them!
Flashback of Rey and her parents in the tent then the ship taking off
K: They paid for your protection. In more than one way.
R: Stop talking!
K: Rey, I know what happened to them…
K: Tell me where you are. You don’t know the whole story. Your father stole Ochi’s ship to escape from Exegol. He took your saber from there, too. But he sold it, because he was powerless in the Force. So Palpatine gave Ochi his revenge.
Flashback of Ochi killing Rey’s father and then approaching her mother with the knife.
R: No!
Vader’s charred mask falls to the ground
K: So that’s where you are. The Emperor wants one of us on his throne.
R: No…
K: I’ll come tell you why.
Later in the hangar
K: Rey, please listen to me. I know why Palpatine wants us to fight over the Sith throne.
R: Tell me.
K: Because he saw what you would become. You don’t just have power. You have his power. You’re his granddaughter… My mother was the daughter of Vader. Your father was the son of the Emperor. What Palpatine doesn’t know is we’re a dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. We’ll kill him. Together. And end the Sith.

For context, the reason why Kylo is playing up the reveal that her parents are dead is because this edit would be intended to be paired with one which removes Kylo revealing this information in TLJ - mostly because the only way it makes sense that they’re buried on Jakku is if Rey killed them herself LOL.

As for the speed of the Vader duel, I think it actually matches the sequel-style baseball bat choreography quite well. That being said, I think I made another version of it beyond the one that you’re referring to above which most people were agreeable to since it had some faster bits. I’ll have to go looking for it (not at the computer rn).

And that’s what one gets for going through the entire thread and responding, LOL!

Ope, I missed Luke’s two new ones at the end!

R: …I won’t let it happen. I’m doing what you did.
L: I was wrong. Legends inspire hope in the face of fear. What are you most afraid of?

As Ben is holding a dead Rey:
L: Love doesn’t control, Ben. It gives freely.

That’s meant to be the thematic message of the Skywalker Saga, exemplified by Leia when she doesn’t seek to control Rey for who she is, she just shows her love.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

For context, the reason why Kylo is playing up the reveal that her parents are dead is because this edit would be intended to be paired with one which removes Kylo revealing this information in TLJ - mostly because the only way it makes sense that they’re buried on Jakku is if Rey killed them herself LOL.

Is there any particular fanedit of TLJ you’d recommend pairing with this edit when it comes out?

It’s a complicated answer because it would ordinarily be Poppa’s TLJ, but his edit retains Kylo saying that line. Hal’s edit removes it, but he’s also missing a lot of the good changes from Poppa - such as removing Rose’s maneuver, and a few of the Palpatine teases. I do have a rough cut of what I’d ultimately like to share as my own version of TLJ, but when I made it years ago I didn’t have access to the full resolution version of the Caretaker Village sequence deleted scene. None of the big TLJ edits use the Caretaker Village sequence, which I think is crucial to understanding Luke’s perspective. Instead I ripped the Caretaker scenes from a smaller sized extended cut, so the edit dips in quality/pixels throughout. And obviously it also doesn’t have the 3 line replacements I’ve been posting about in Poppa’s thread.

I can still send it to you (or anyone else) if you’re interested, but I’d need to reupload it to my Drive first.

Gotcha. Yeah, I figured it must not be Rekindled for that reason, even though that would normally be the recommended way to experience TLJ. You mentioned your rough cut for TLJ currently doesn’t have the line replacements you brought up over in Rekindled’s thread, though; Does that mean your edit of TLJ is built off of it, or am I confusing myself? Either way, if you plan to update and share your edit of TLJ at some point, then I don’t mind waiting until that’s something you’re ready to do. I understand full well that these things take time. Is there more you want to do with it beyond swapping out the Caretaker scenes with higher quality footage? Regardless, I’m definitely interested in seeing it when the time comes.

Yes, so my rough cut is basically a Frankenstein of Rekindled, Legendary, and Bobson Dugnutt’s extended edition. With a couple of my own small changes sprinkled on top.

For example, I don’t think Snoke using Hux as a mop makes sense in the context of Hux hating Kylo so much that he’d betray everything to get back at him in TROS. Therefore, physical abuse of Hux is reserved only for when Kylo becomes Supreme Leader, and we cut right to the Raddus after Hux is told that Snoke is making contact from his ship. This change was actually in Hal’s Legendary cut originally but it got reverted for some reason. I also cringe at stuff like Finn’s body slamming against the escape pod while Rose holsters her taser in a really self-important way. And I also think that Ben Kenobi should speak to Luke before he dies so that it feels guided and less random (also ties in with TROS nicely).

Finally, I’m also wondering if it might be possible for Leia Poppins to work now. Essentially, I remain convinced that this idea works, but it’s just the absurd visual that takes people out of it. I’d be replacing the wide CGI shot with a continuation of the up-close hand shot with the stars moving in the background. But if I can’t get this to work smoothly then I suppose I’m fine with how Poppa handles it.

Ah, okay. I definitely see how that would work. For one, I completely agree with how you intend to handle Hux. I wonder why Hal chose to make this change himself only to revert it later. Perhaps he noticed some other issue it causes? Either way, I’m also fully on board with the idea of Ben speaking to Luke before he dies.

That being said, while I’m not against trying to find a way to make the idea of Leia’s space-flight-thing work, I do think it’s something I’d have to see your rendition of firsthand to know how I’d feel about it. Nonetheless, hearing your plans for TLJ, I could easily see it becoming my go-to rendition of the film the same way this feels like it’ll be my go-to rendition of TRoS. I guess I have both to look forward to now! lol

I think it had something to do with the fact that without the line “tied on the end of a string” it seems like the heroes got away with no issues, so there’s no tension afterwards except: “Oh boy, now Snoke is about to be involved.” It might also have to do with Snoke referencing that same line when Kylo is walking in later, but that can just as easily be explained by him walking into an ongoing conversation in which Hux had said that. Personally, I’m fine with losing some of that tension if it salvages some of Hux’s motivations. I picture him as a sort of teacher’s pet, obsessed with Snoke, so when he realizes Kylo killed him and he no longer is coddled but abused he loses it.

And don’t worry, I wouldn’t be forcing the Leia thing without getting substantial feedback on it first LOL. Honestly it’s a bit of a long-shot now that I think about it, mostly because the shot of her floating around the destroyed command deck would have to remain in. While that shot is a bit more tolerable, it’s still at least somewhat goofy looking.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the most ideal solution would be that Leia holds herself in place with the Force while everything else is sucked out into space. And then once the pressure normalizes she passes out. But I’m not sure how you’d translate that onto a single shot. But that way you at least have a plausible explanation as to how they were able to recover Leia’s body in Poppa’s sequence of events.

Hmm. Well, I definitely understand not wanting to remove narrative tension. Personally, I’m also in the camp that would want to prioritize the character writing first and foremost, though, so I still agree with you on this change, even if it is a bit more subjective than I first realized.

In regards to Leia again, I agree that the footage we have of it would probably make those ideas difficult to pull off, but I’m not nearly enough of an editor myself to understand just how difficult. I do like the latter idea more than the former, but that’s a me thing. Granted, it makes me wonder why countless other force users didn’t do the same in other parts of the franchise, but I digress. lol

So with Palpatine+ being the version I’m primarily focusing on now, I thought I’d take a second look at the beginning of the Ahch-To sequence. My previous line about legends feels off to me because it doesn’t relate as much to Rey:

REY: I keep on losing control. Everyone will be safer if I’m gone. I’m never leaving this place. I’m doing what you did.
LUKE: I was wrong. Failure shows us where we still need to grow. What are you most afraid of?
REY: Myself.
LUKE: Because you’re a Palpatine. Leia kept seeing you on his throne.
REY: She never told me. She still trained me!
LUKE: Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Rey, some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost…

I’d argue this version is stronger because Rey’s retreat to Ahch-To now mirrors Luke’s for the same fundamental reason: both sincerely believe their presence is doing more harm than good, so withdrawal feels like responsibility rather than cowardice. That lets Luke say “I was wrong” without retroactively reducing his TLJ exile to fear. His lesson is instead inspired by Yoda - failure is not a final verdict, it just reveals where more growth is needed. That makes “What are you most afraid of?” a natural next question in the endeavor of self-growth. And since Rey now doesn’t mention the throne vision at the beginning of the scene, we can instead use that as a big reveal rather than as merely a reminder for the plot. Leia’s recurring vision of Rey on the Sith throne becomes the crucial counterexample in the Skywalker saga. Like Anakin, she is repeatedly confronted with a terrifying possible future, but she responds in the opposite way: Anakin tries to control fate, while Leia treats each vision as another reason to keep teaching Rey, trusting her, and helping her grow. She refuses to treat a possible future as a finished outcome like Luke does with Ben, too.

Yes, we lose some of the relevant hatred that Leia surely harbors for Palpatine himself, but to be honest that always felt like a weird reveal to me. We’ve never had anybody be able to sense somebody’s ancestry through the Force before just based on proximity. In the case of Luke and Leia, they needed significant hints and setup in order to realize they’re related. Plus, if Leia knows Rey is related to Palpatine, it should have started ringing alarm bells in the Resistance HQ much sooner that Palpatine may have returned in some way.

Any thoughts?

On the first point, family/inclusion is still the emotional payoff of the scene. Failure/fear is the mechanism that gets Rey there. Rey’s problem on Ahch-To isn’t simply “I don’t have a good family.” It’s that she has interpreted everything she’s learned about herself - her power, her failures, her bloodline, the throne vision - as evidence that she is dangerous and therefore ought to remove herself. Luke first has to challenge that conclusion. Then Leia becomes the evidence that Rey already was accepted with eyes open: “She still trained me!” / “Because she saw your spirit. Your heart.” That’s where the family/inclusion theme lands. So I wouldn’t say you have to choose between the two readings. The scene now lets one lead into the other.

The second point is more important. For “She still trained me!” to carry its full weight, Leia’s visions can’t have begun five minutes before Rey left for Pasaana. They need to have haunted Leia for a meaningful portion of Rey’s apprenticeship. Fortunately, “Leia kept seeing you on his throne” naturally implies an ongoing past pattern, not a recent single revelation. In fact, I think that should be the intended reading: Leia had been seeing this possible future repeatedly during Rey’s training and kept responding by investing more in her.

How about this:

REY: I can’t control my power. Everyone will be safer if I’m gone. I’m never leaving this place. I’m doing what you did.
LUKE: I was wrong. Failure teaches us where to grow. What are you most afraid of?
REY: Myself.
LUKE: Because you’re a Palpatine. Leia had visions of you claiming his throne.
REY: She never told me. She still trained me!
LUKE: Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Rey, some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost…

I wanted to critique a few parts of your version, Thrawn. First, “lose” and “fail” are synonymous with each other. If she just says “failing” we don’t know exactly what she’s taking about. This uses the same language that she uses earlier in reference to the Chewie incident - “I lost control”. In my edit, she also blasts Finn with some lightning on the Death Star wreckage. And then of course that’s subsequently followed by her landing a fatal blow on Kylo if it weren’t for her Force healing ability. Rey is basically saying “I’m failing to keep control of myself.” I think Luke, and the audience, is smart enough to make that connection.

Also, Rey has made it clear throughout the movie that she’s only ever had the one vision - “I had a vision.” That’s what makes this reveal regarding Leia so impactful; she hasn’t just had the same vision as Rey, she’s had multiple of them and they seem to show her further context of how she’s able to get on that throne. So it’s not necessarily spelled out if Leia knows Rey is a Palpatine, but the implication is now certainly there if you want it to be.

Maybe I’m wildly off here but that’s why further conversation is important.

Now that I have an AI Palpatine voice, I’ve been thinking through the Palpatine / Kylo introduction scene and how it can be modified to further support the goals of the Palpatine+ edit. Here is the dialogue I’ve been mulling over (some of it I’ve previously showcased):

P: “At last. Snoke trained you well.”
K: “I killed Snoke. I’ll kill you.”
P: “My boy… I made Snoke. I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head. I have learned to make a great many things… thanks to Skywalker. The First Order was just the beginning. I will give you so much more.”
K: “You’ll die first.”
P: “I have died before. Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me.”
K: “You’re a ghost, in a rotting clone. What could you, give me?”
P: “Everything. A new Empire. Manned by legions of clones. Bred for obedience. Awaiting a worthy heir. The galaxy will cower before the might of the Final Order. But only the strongest may claim it. Kill the girl. End the Jedi. And become what your grandfather Vader could not. You will rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor. But beware, she is not who you think she is.”
K: “Who is she?”
Palpatine smiles and the screen fades to black.
P: “Your rival.”

A few of the reasons for these suggested changes:

1. I would be fine with the hand on Exegol not having any dialogue over it if it didn’t factor into the plot. But seeing as how Kylo later references Rey’s father taking the Skywalker saber from Exegol, I believe this is due for an explanation so that a casual audience can more easily put the pieces together.
2. It prevents the misconception that Palpatine’s clones contain Skywalker DNA, or worse yet, that Rey’s father is somehow part Skywalker. I’m fine with Snoke being part Luke (blue eyes!), but I’d leave that up to the audience to decide. My point is that this new line creates the impression that Luke’s hand merely allowed for Palpatine to make breakthroughs in his research into cloning, not necessarily that all of his creations physically contain Skywalker DNA.
3. Under Poe’s new dialogue later on, it’s made clear that the Final Order was constructed during the time of the Empire - “a stockpile”. So why then does Palpatine originally say it “will soon be ready”? I think Ascendant was relying on the idea that the Dreadnought cannon modifications were what was being worked on, which works, but I’m still not sure that I buy something of this scale being possible without the resources of the Empire. Thus I figure Palpatine acknowledging the state of the galaxy (“flames of rebellion”) is a better fit here.
4. Palpatine’s two new lines at the end more organically set up the central change of Heirs to the Throne, although don’t spoil it outright. So this way when Kylo later says “Palpatine wants us to fight”, the audience doesn’t start wondering if they missed something. Instead, they start realizing what’s really going on and it feels like a payoff to the intro.