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What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 27

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JadedSkywalker said:

Hayden wasn’t bad as Anakin. He wasn’t bad once he stepped into the suit as Vader either. All the complaints are on the directing and writing of George Lucas. The awful dialogue. Some of that is Anakin being a sullen bad boy anti-hero, when the prequel probably should have had Anakin as more heroic and then slowly seduced to evil. He turns bad in the film Revenge of the Sith, as we have it out of shear arrogance, stupidity and greed.

I get it that is the point, Anakin is pathetic and the OT built him up as this historic villain with a tragic backstory.

I’m not sure know how Anakin can be that straight forward hero and turned to evil that way to the point where he’s willing to slaughter the Jedi and murder his friend and mentor Obi-Wan and not make it a misunderstanding type of situation.

But he makes it happen by how he interprets his vision of the future. He is responsible for her death. She lost the will to live and didn’t stick around to raise Luke or Leia. The movies don’t even blame him for the Tuskens, the ones he slaughter to the last women and child, Padme excuses it. He is well on his path to the dark side at that point when his mother dies and he snaps. And says he will learn power to stop people from dying.

For me, that’s the point. Anakin is his own monster. He caused his own pain and suffering and loss in that. His fear is an illusion to me, it’s something he has no power over, no control over

I disagree that he’s not pinned as in the wrong by the movie for the tusken massacre, as I think the movie clearly leans into that as dark and wrong. It doesn’t have him berated for it by Padme, which I have some of an issue with, even if I think Padme in the situation is more looking at him as a broken and grieving man whose mourning the loss of his mother, though I’d still prefer it be done differently in some way though to kinda offset it. Overall though I don’t think Padme excuses it, moreso comforts him in his pain and conflict and hurt.

I think he’s in conflict before his mother dies, but not so directly on the dark path until that happens.

My biggest issue with the film is if Anakin and Vader are supposed to be different, I would suggest Vader and Anakin are one and the same as portrayed in the prequel except for in the Phantom Menace. The whole certain point of view, the good man who was your father was destroyed. Well, we never see him as a good man in the prequel or a good friend, he isn’t an amazing starpilot or a cunning warrior. Rather stupid and abruptly because of some dream he had. Like Lucas was doing a play on Oedipus defying the oracle. Sealing his own fate, with Anakin’s vision of the future and trying to prevent it from happening making it happen.

My interpretation has been that Vader is an extension of Anakin’s worst traits, focused and with a bit more surface level illusion of control. I think that makes sense, because Anakin is a person, not another personality. Vader isn’t a symptom of multiple personality disorder. If Vader’s not also Anakin, and just a different person, how does Vader turn from evil at the end of ROTJ? Obi-Wan’s take on Vader I think is suggested to be incorrect at the end of ROTJ.

You’d have to do a page one rewrite of the prequel to have the good man who because of zeal joined the Clone Wars, and was slowly seduced to evil. All Anakin was is just driven by greedy and selfish motives, and it’s hard to have any sympathy. Other than for the little slave boy on Tatooine or the teenager who lost his mother. All the rest of his choices he makes on his own. Its true Sidious/Palpatine tells him what he wants to hear. While Kenobi urges patience and to follow the Jedi creed.

Why wouldn’t Anakin’s choices be his own?

The biggest problem is he simply is not a likable leading character, he isn’t the Luke Skywalker of the prequel trilogy. Who isn’t really bad but is just impatient and chooses the quick and easy path. No, he is a loathsome and contemptible person. Revenge of the Sith made that clear.

Anakin’s not the hero of the PT to me, Padme and Obi-Wan are, so I think him not being Luke makes sense, for that reasoning to me, as well as Anakin becoming a villain.

The most likable people are probably Qui-Gon in the first one who really was a nothing character really the archetype of the mentor. And Obi-Wan is full of the Jedi code and creed in the prequels. But his sort of surrogate father/older brother figure to Anakin, he isn’t a bad guy per se.

How is Obi a bad guy at all, in regards to “isn’t a bad guy per se”? How is Padme not likable? Or Obi? Most people I’ve seen seem to like Obi in the PT a lot.

And yeah Anakin could have followed his training or left the Jedi order. Is the Jedi responsible even a smidge for his fall. Kenobi certainly felt guilty of something. promising his master he would train the boy despite Yoda warnings.

The movies make the audience and Palpatine aware of what is going on but the Jedi oblivious. Is that good storytelling we need to go from point A to point B, the script needs a reason for Anakin to do these things because he is the villain in the OT. We don’t have a way to judge the story other than the dark side clouds everything. That is why the Jedi were dumb.

The Jedi have no proof of anything in the movies, so how are they dumb? The only thing I think is a real issue is their not asking more questions about Jango and Dooku’s connection, as Jango was the clone template, but they have no legit evidence of any connection I think beyond Jango working for Dooku now and having been commissioned for the clone army about ten years prior.

Otherwise the dark side clouds everything I think is more used in regards to the jedi’s abilities being diminished and not being able to sense Palpatine.

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I do think Anakin in the TPM is a bit overly cutesy, but I only see that as a minor thing in that movie. For most of his scenes I think he’s generally more serious, sad or excited, rather than overly cutesy to me.

It’s not just Anakin who is cutesy, it’s his whole world that’s cutesy. For me it’s difficult to see his slavery as a serious consideration when it basically mirrors suburban living. He lives with his Mom, she entertains guests, he gets to work in a fix-it shop and race go-carts…it just doesn’t feel fully realised. The ‘baby Conan’ scenario at leasts gives a full-blown reason for a good, decent guy to have a very reasonable chip on his shoulder.

I also prefer, personally, Owen being Anakin’s step brother, rather than brother, as I feel that a character driven so much by his personal connections, I feel it doesn’t really connect much for Vader to have had a brother that he was raised with, and then that brother dies and it never comes up in the OT. I already feel like it’s an issue in the OT that they’re never mentioned again after they die.

I agree in a sense - I mean I wish Owen had come up in RoTJ (imagine if Luke, having beaten Vader to a standstill, rubbed the death of Owen and Beru in Vader’s face)!
The Owen connection I posited would work (IMO) because it would illustrate a definite (and poignant) crossroads between Anakin and Owen. Anakin would meet Obi Wan and be filled with zeal at the idea of tracking down evildoers and (eventually) getting his revenge. Owen would be like “it’s not worth it, let’s be farmers and leave all that behind us”. This to me is much more emotionally potent than the movies as they stand, especially given that there’s no real ‘idealistic crusade’ issue expressed or even demonstrated in the movies.

In terms of a Luke/Anakin parallel let me just say this - Conan '82 and Star Wars share many commonalities, something that admittedly only really occurred to me over time. Lucas and Milius were essentially going for similar things - the sense of myth, the Kurosawa inspiration, the aged mentor, the ‘used universe’, the ‘father’ tropes including the handing down of the sword/sabre and the villain becoming the dark mirror image of the noble father etc etc (even the poster art is the same BTW!). Both Luke and Conan end up in much the same place…basically standing over a defeated James Earl Jones with a sword and wondering where to go from there.

Luke chooses mercy and redeems his ‘dark father’. Conan does the opposite and kills his ‘dark father’ (of course Vader was actually Luke’s father while Conan’s villain was claiming ‘fatherhood’ in a spiritual sense, but anyhow…). This to me is an example of what Anakin could be - less a Luke figure and more a Conan figure.

Now Conan gets to just wander off and keep doing Conan things, but had he been bound by something like an allegiance to a Jedi Order (with his best friends and wife bound by the ethical constraints of that order as well) then you have an interesting state of affairs and a great springboard for the kind of character who could embody all the noble traits of ‘a good friend’ and ‘a cunning warrior’ but also be driven to rage by orthodoxy in a way that wouldn’t allow him to ‘let go of his hate’. This way we, the audience, could empathise with him whilst also seeing how such a great dude could become a bad guy. As it is now we kind of have to flex our credulity somewhat to go from ‘whiny teenager Anakin’ to ‘killing younglings and joining the bad guys’ Anakin. I just think the ‘baby Conan’ idea gives a more straightforward, and believable, path from child-slave to Dark Lord that easily smooths out the discrepancies between Obi Wan’s fond recollections on Tatooine and the homicidal psychopath that Vader actually was. But his central struggle wouldn’t be the ‘saving Padme’ stuff or anything to do with being a Chosen One. It would be about his slavery and his obsession with personal autonomy growing through adversity into an obsession with personal power - which would lead to his descent into darkness when that obsession is challenged by those he loves.

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Dooku in Episode II tries to get Obi-Wan to join him by revealing a portion of the truth about the Sith plot, of course he is trying to get Obi-wan to join him as his Sith apprentice.

Using Qui-Gon’s memory to corrupt Kenobi, Kenobi doesn’t take the bait.

Of course the Jedi don’t trust Dooku to not be lying, so they don’t investigate the Darth Sidious in control of the republic and senate statement of Dooku. They question for a moment the Syfo Dyas thing, and then use the Clone Army.

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I have a love/hate relationship with PM. I love Qui Gong, Duel of Fates, Maul, Pod Race, Queen Amidala and even the politics but I absolutely hate how you have to be 2 years old to be a Jedi (more than Jar Jar, who is awful of course). And the unnecessary exposition drags the film down. Do we really need to be introduced to all the pod racers? Do we really need to see the ships landing every where and taking up minutes of screen Time? do we really need to see aliens selling popcorn in the stands during the Pod race? And the staging and blocking was nonexistent, which made the film lack energy and rhythm at times. And the jar jar gags were too much. The retconning of Qui Gong, not Kenobi, finding Anakin is total nonsense. Same with Anakin building c3p0. And R2 knowing everyone literally

AOTC is completely awful. The only good thing was Christopher Lee as Dooku and Jango. Watching Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman as the “heroes” was like watching Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez in a cheap Disney Channel sci fi movie. Barf! And I hate how the Jedi are depicted in this film entirely. And the digital compositing and CGI were just awful in some scenes. It’s easily in My top five worst looking films I’ve ever seen. Maybe even top three. I can’t believe Lucas will go back and tamper and “fix” the original trilogy, but looks at the Jedi temple scene with mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi walking and think that looks OK. if anything needs fixing it scenes like this in attack of the clones.smh

Revenge of the Sith is a decent film with emotion. It’s the only film in the trilogy with actual drama.I enjoyed the tone of the movie and the rhythm and pacing, even though Anakin turn feels rushed but I don’t expect Star Wars to give me epic character development like the Godfather. I thought Hayden Christensen‘s acting was decent given what he had to work with. Ian was also great as the emperor . However, some of the CGI is aging badly and will continue to do so every year that passes by. the fight between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin on Mustafar gets more and more absurd because it’s over the top and self indulgent and looks awful in some places, namely, when the facility collapses they’re doing the swinging and hover board thing. Also grievous versus Obi-Wan Kenobi does nothing for me. It’s just McGregor swinging a Lightsaber at a green screen. Nevertheless, I love seeing Anakin get his limbs chopped off and burn to a crisp. As a kid, I always fantasized about how that would be, and when I finally saw it on the big screen, it was amazing.

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Revenge of the Sith is a deeply depressing tragedy movie. But Anakin is so easily fooled and tricked by Palpatine/Sidious or easily lead. Either he never was a moral person, or the thinking he will save Padme and his greed at holding onto her is more important than his morality.

The villain all the kids loved in the OT is a child murdering psychopath who chokes pregnant women. Anakin/Vader thinks evil is good, and fascism is Democracy. Its slightly absurd isn’t it. The Jedi are evil he says.

There are hints in the trilogy that Palpatine is like a father figure or adviser to Anakin. I would have liked more of that to be established before Revenge of the Sith, instead of just in episode 1 we’ll watch your career with great interest.

Why does Anakin agree power justifies the means to an end why does he support Palpatine so zealously. Other than Anakin having a foreboding he is going to someday become Vader. You don’t get why Anakin does what he does. At least in ROTS it’s just his I want to stop people from dying thing from episode II, but he causes Padme’s death by trying to prevent it. Was his Vision of the future locked in that she would die or did he make that happen.

I would have liked to see more of Kenobi and Anakin’s friendship. Lucas tells but does not show. Anakin is great star pilot, no he wasn’t. A cunning warrior. Hardly he got lucky once or twice. And his foolhardy stupidity cost both him his limbs on Mustafar. Where is his zeal to join the clone wars on an idealistic damn fool crusade like Obi Wan.

I would have liked a prequel to the OT that justified the hero the galaxy all thought Anakin Skywalker was. And the good man and friend. As is its Kenobi lying and dissembling to trick Luke. He slices and dices Anakin on mustafar, and doesn’t even have the mercy for the coup de grace. He leaves him to burn in lava. and almost as an afterthought he steals Anakin’s jedi weapon. Somehow or another pre-Suit Vader didn’t have a Sith lightsaber that was red.

Because the lightsaber Luke uses in Star Wars is his father’s. Perhaps that was why Lucas chose that to be the weapon Anakin uses on Mustafar.

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Shopping Maul said:

It’s not just Anakin who is cutesy, it’s his whole world that’s cutesy. For me it’s difficult to see his slavery as a serious consideration when it basically mirrors suburban living. He lives with his Mom, she entertains guests, he gets to work in a fix-it shop and race go-carts…it just doesn’t feel fully realised. The ‘baby Conan’ scenario at leasts gives a full-blown reason for a good, decent guy to have a very reasonable chip on his shoulder.

Again, I’d disagree. I think that’s only a few things in the movie itself. The slavery is more, I think, about power, not about being beaten or abused. I think Anakin feels powerless and feels like he needs to be insistent about his identity when called a slave, he’s “a person” and his “name is Anakin” as he says. The movie has it said that their lives are basically held captive, they have bombs that can kill them. To do more, I think would make Anakin more like it’s trying to justify Anakin’s turn. I think what works is that his turn is from how he chooses to react, not excessive abuse or aggressive trauma. Conan in the Arnold movie is on a journey to be a heroic focused warrior. Anakin isn’t. Anakin, I think, is a showcase of how childlike optimism and heroism can be lost.

I also prefer, personally, Owen being Anakin’s step brother, rather than brother, as I feel that a character driven so much by his personal connections, I feel it doesn’t really connect much for Vader to have had a brother that he was raised with, and then that brother dies and it never comes up in the OT. I already feel like it’s an issue in the OT that they’re never mentioned again after they die.

I agree in a sense - I mean I wish Owen had come up in RoTJ (imagine if Luke, having beaten Vader to a standstill, rubbed the death of Owen and Beru in Vader’s face)!
The Owen connection I posited would work (IMO) because it would illustrate a definite (and poignant) crossroads between Anakin and Owen. Anakin would meet Obi Wan and be filled with zeal at the idea of tracking down evildoers and (eventually) getting his revenge. Owen would be like “it’s not worth it, let’s be farmers and leave all that behind us”. This to me is much more emotionally potent than the movies as they stand, especially given that there’s no real ‘idealistic crusade’ issue expressed or even demonstrated in the movies.

But that’s a line and a concept I think, not character or story. In story, Owen’s never brought up again by any character, and that the empire murders Vader’s brother is never brought up. I think there’s room for Owen in TPM, but not as his literal brother, again for a character like Vader that’s so driven by his personal connections, I think it doesn’t connect for his character to never have any given reaction to Owen’s death, nor do I think it connects as much for the jedi to hide them with his outright family.

This way we, the audience, could empathise with him whilst also seeing how such a great dude could become a bad guy. As it is now we kind of have to flex our credulity somewhat to go from ‘whiny teenager Anakin’ to ‘killing younglings and joining the bad guys’ Anakin. I just think the ‘baby Conan’ idea gives a more straightforward, and believable, path from child-slave to Dark Lord that easily smooths out the discrepancies between Obi Wan’s fond recollections on Tatooine and the homicidal psychopath that Vader actually was. But his central struggle wouldn’t be the ‘saving Padme’ stuff or anything to do with being a Chosen One. It would be about his slavery and his obsession with personal autonomy growing through adversity into an obsession with personal power - which would lead to his descent into darkness when that obsession is challenged by those he loves.

But should we empathize with him anymore than feeling bad for his situation? Vader is accepting of blowing up planets, he’s a part of the empire. What could possibly show that as reasonable that wouldn’t be trying to sad boi him up and try and blame his turn on someone else?

Anakin’s initial bout of rage came in his slaughter of the tuskens, a lashing out in vengeance I think after having repressed his fear of losing his mom for so long and a feeling of responsibility for it because he never did anything. I think that could be done stronger, but I think it’s in the character. He’s faced with the same fear again with Padme and takes the same action, in prevention, rather than rage. I think it’s fear.

Obi-Wan was with Anakin for years, over a decade I think, and he had no knowledge of his worst actions until his turn to the dark side, so I don’t see what the discrepancy is in Obi’s recollection of him.

Luke’s near turn I think is in reaction to the fear losing those he loves in ROTJ, so I think it makes sense for that to be Vader’s.

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That is a salient and good point. Vader baits Luke to Cloud City by torturing Han and Leia. He knows about Luke’s attachment to his friends. and Luke’s identity was that his father was a hero and jedi knight, that is shattered by the revelation Darth is his dad. By threatening to turn his sister Leia he incenses Luke to near patricide.

and we see him wearing black like Vader, choaking Gamorrean guards, threatening to murder Jabba. and even further in the throne room he looks at his father’s stump and looks at his own metal hand. he was becoming Vader. he was already on his way when he fought the shadow version of himself in the cave in TESB, that was a warning. What’s in there only what you take with you. Luke brought his fear and hatred into the cave. Fear and anger are of the dark side, so is impetuousness and impatience. Anakin has those traits. take the quick and easy path, become an agent of evil.

All your live have you looked away to the future, to the horizon. Never your mind on where you were, what you were doing, adventure, excitement a Jedi craves not these things.

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Darth Plagueis novel makes the Prequels makes sense thats why the Darth Plagueis novel should be Canon for Legends and Disney Canon

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Cloak of deception also really elevated Phantom menace and the prequels for me. It elevates the politics of the prequels in a great way.

“Vader! Hologram, now!”

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This is a The Phantom Menace redo outline that is constructed around the basic concept of the story as is, but with refining I think. For this, here are the ideas that I thank God for, if He wills, blessing me with:

Two jedi, Qui-Gon Jinn and his padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi are secretly sent to investigate a trade federation blockade of Naboo and the surrounding areas of it. Qui-Gon is shown to be wary of being used like this by the senate. Obi-Wan holds the stance that the best way to ensure the jedi order and the senate share a peaceful co-existence is for them to work in symbiosis with eachother. Qui-Gon disagrees with this perception, seeing that as a stepping stone to the jedi being misused. They’re accepted by the Viceroy and enter their vessel. When Palpatine tells them to kill the jedi with the poison gas, the jedi slice through the vents, which sets off an alert. Thinking the jedi are trying to escape through the vents, they send the droids in, which the jedi use, fighting them and escaping out of the now open door.

Getting to the main control deck of the ship after fighting off the battle droids, Qui begins cutting through the closed blast doors, when destroyers show up, shields protecting them. To escape, Obi and Qui use their combined power to pull a part of the wall off of the corridor and block the destroyers path.

The trade federation’s motivation is more explored. Due to a trade deficit of imports exceeding in cost compared to their exports for large scale planets like Naboo, whose trade of plasma had garnered their planet a mass amount of income, the trade federation had begun transporting spice. Due to no formal laws dictating it’s trade as illegal and no explicit evidence, they were able to do it with impunity. However, to discourage such trade of harmful substances, the senate, rather than the effort it would take to push forward a new law, issued a tax on the trade, it aggressively hindering their credit intake. As an opposition to this, they’ve targeted Naboo, blockading it and it’s trade of plasma to strongarm the senate to repeal the taxation, as the trade of Naboo’s plasma has become a hot commodity in the galaxy. Getting Padme to sign the treaty will essentially give them the right to plunder the plasma resources of the planet for their own trade, increasing their income tenfold.

The trade federation has gained support from some worlds who are opposing similar matters, though not about taxation regarding spice or drugs, but mainly what has been considered general overreach by the republic on other matters and has been happening slowly for decades, restricting other worlds and people in the outer rim and such have little representation in the senate. In the midst of this, an alliance such displeased members of what will become the separatist alliance, currently called the Union at this point, has pushed for support in opposition to the republic.

They hide to avoid them, before running into Jar Jar Binks. Yes, he’s staying, though he’s a little more toned down. Qui-Gon saves his life from a droid, to which Jar Jar owes him a debt. In doing so, he helps them find their way to Naboo’s capitol, through the underwater tunnels his people traverse through, this getting him into trouble with his people, for helping outworlders. Jar Jar insists, him already being in hot water for his soft view on the Naboo humans who already live there, so he’s banished for this treachery. Jar Jar is still clumsy, still careless, has a goofy personality, but not outright over the top.

Upon seeing the droids also walk amongst the streets of the capital, Obi-Wan insists they return to Coruscant and inform them of this. Qui-Gon senses that the Queen is in danger and pursues that. Obi-Wan objects to this, as he doesn’t sense it, it wasn’t their mission and that Qui-Gon objected to being sent here in the first place. Qui-Gon points out to him that he objected to the jedi council sending them out of obligation to the senate, but not to helping prevent dangerous circumstances from being taken out on the people of the planet, citing that a blockade is a political issue, but what’s happening on Naboo is an invasion, and that it is their duty as jedi to help the people of the planet from being harmed by that. He then informs Obi-Wan that he can return to Coruscant and inform the council of this if he wishes, but that he will follow his instincts about the situation. Obi-Wan begins to leave, but begrudgingly follows Qui-Gon.

13 year old Queen Padme of Naboo is gaining input from her senator in the Galactic senate, Sheev Palpatine. A soft hearted, conflicted young woman, she feels burdened by the responsibility she has to her people, recently elected into office. She begins to feel frustrated when her communications with Palpatine are blocked by the trade federation. For assistance, she turns to her advisor Bail Organa, who suggests that they seek a way to smuggle Padme out of the the capitol and off the planet. Padme objects, feeling unwilling to abandon her people. Her Supreme Commander of Naboo’s army insists they fight back. Padme is against it, fearing the casualties of igniting a war.

Padme and her people aren’t fully trusting of a gungan in Jar-Jar, as the gungans and her people have had animosity towards each other and debates over representation in the senate and ownership of the plasma resource their planet has in abundance. The gungans had made the lives of Padme’s people difficult, seeing them as arrogant and uncaring about their people and their place in the planet that they both share disrupting some of the drilling for plasma and basically not allowing them to set up rigs on certain patches of land, whereas Padme’s people see the gungans as a group unwilling to abide by the laws and policies of their people and the republic, seeing them as seperate from them as a result, almost a kinda elitism, this causing a divide between them.

In spite of their uncertainty, given their situation, they still go along with Jar-Jar’s assistance, Jar-Jar having snuck into the hangar and stumbled upon a ship for them to escape in, not realizing it has been loaded with spice by the trade federation for them to implicate the Queen more directly in making their invasion legal through a supposed trade of spice.

Padme insists that Bail take another ship, stating that they’ll be focused on capturing her rather than him, to sneak out and if all else fails he’ll be able to bring their cause to the senate.

While escaping the trade federation, the ship is overwhelmed, the engine being damaged. As the ship’s engine is being repaired by R2, Padme opts for a distraction. She opens the airlock and, with Obi-Wan’s assistance in a moment of bonding, releases the large spice shipment into space to scatter behind them to disrupt the vision of the trade federation and its attack, giving R2 time hidden to fix the engine and allow the ship to escape.

Though the ship is still damaged, a major part needing replacing, the closest available civilization that they may be able to get away with and the trade federation would think they’re less likely to take refuge on, that being tatooine.

Though the Trade Federation does have an interest in tatooine, as well as many of the outer rim worlds, using the mob run tatooine to provide spice for their trade, this allowing them to have interference in the planet’s affairs.

Maul is smug and cocky. Establish that he is itching to fight and kill a jedi, as it’s what he was trained for, what he thinks his purpose is, perhaps to prove himself to Sidious.

Anakin is 11 years old. He doesn’t have any real friends, but he does have a few buddies, like Owen Lars and Beru Whitesun. Owen does have a great deal of adoration for Anakin’s mom though, his own mother abandoning him and his dad when he was young. Owen’s dad, Cliegg, a single man, is shown to have a lot of affection for Anakin’s mother Shmi as well, her being a sweet, nurturing, brave hearted woman. Cliegg, a moisture farmer, is said to have been trying for years to build up enough money to pay off her and her son’s slavery cost, to free them, but he simply has so little available income to do so for them.

Anakin speaks about the relay used to send the signals to the bomb’s in the slaves on tatooine and how it doesn’t have a shield around it as it needs a clear signal for long ranges to avoid mishaps like gaps that could lead to escapes and/or unintentional explosions. When asked why the relay hasn’t been destroyed, Anakin tells them that it’ll automatically set off the bombs if it’s destroyed or shut down without a code, which is broken up between multiple mob bosses on tatooine and no one knows who.

Padme, meanwhile bonds with Anakin, a feeling of being powerless and hindered by their roles in their lives, though Padme acknowledges that her situation is far from the same as his, she feels much compassion for him and his situation. And in seeing this planet and how it is, slavery within the galaxy showing her that things aren’t as simple as the rules dictating the way the galaxy is run and how trivial her peoples issues with the gungans are. Padme feels much sympathy for him, finding his bravery and optimism, and emotional openness, in spite of his situation to be very admirable and charming. Anakin finds her to be pretty as well as gentle and caring and compassion to be traits that he finds himself struck by, as well her being the only other girl close to his age that he’s felt such a connection to.

Qui-Gon, bonding with Anakin, perceives him to be force sensitive, inquiring of him further from Shmi. Shmi acknowledges that his dad was a nobody who’d left her when she’d been discovered as pregnant and died, and that her pregnancy and Anakin’s birth was a surprise, as she was barren, seeing Anakin as a great blessing in her life, unsure how it was possible for him to have been born.

Qui has sensed the pursuing feeling of the dark side near, and calls for Obi to investigate the surrounding area of the town. Obi questions why Qui-Gon is getting so involved in the life of this boy, as he feels that there’s nothing that can be done for him, that it’d be safer for their mission and that family if he left them alone. Qui-Gon disagrees, saying that they were brought here for a reason, and that to come upon a child with such potential that he can help and can help them, to do nothing about that in assisting who they can would be to deny the path they’ve been presented with. Obi, humbled a bit by Qui’s rebuttal though still a bit defiant, agrees to investigate.

In this, Obi does track a drone that is observing the area, cutting it down before it can return to Maul. Obi is able to catch a glimpse of the dark cloaked figure amidst the dunes, Obi catching his eye as well. Maul is excited to see a jedi, reaching for his lightsaber, but his droid alerts to a sighting of the other jedi, knowing the older would be the one who’d be protecting the queen and not wanting to disobey Sidious’ order and perceiving the fighting of a fully fledged jedi rather than a padawan to be more satisfying anyway, he retreats. Obi realizes why and, knowing where Qui is exactly, takes a shortcut basically.

Qui mentors Anakin a bit on the use of the force. Anakin isn’t sure he understands. Qui says to allow himself to connect and Qui can guide him. So, when the podrace begins to go bad for Anakin, Anakin panics, Qui reaching out to him and assisting him to calm down and focus, which assists Anakin in fixing the problem and defeating Sebulba.

When Anakin is freed, Qui-Gon does feel guilty for not being able set Shmi free, Anakin doesn’t want to leave her.

But, then Obi arrives, warning Qui of someone coming for them. This puts the entire situation for them on alert.

Especially when Maul, trade federation droids tow, is allowed to raid the town by the Hutts, baring down on them and Anakin, with his mom unable to leave, and at her insistence, rather than stay and be caught, maybe even die, is forced to leave his mom behind and escape tatooine.

They’re able to lead them away from the town.

Seed Maul and Obi-Wan’s duel… Obi arrogantly tries to fight off Maul when he comes for Qui, only to be a hindrance, quickly being caught off guard due to his lack of foresight in the moment of the battle.

Padme is happy to find Bail having arrived there safely, him having been able to contact the Alderaan people for safer transport, him having a close friendship with their Queen Breha. Senator Mon Mothma, one of Padme’s friends is also there, in support of her cause and insisting that her planet Chandrila is willing to offer aid in medicine and food, but fears that it best that her planet not get involved in any physical altercations. Padme understands, stating that the last thing she wants is violence.

But we establish a little bit more, that in the past century the republic has allowed corporate alignments to get in the way of ensuring the safety and security of the people they look after. Those who provide the most profit into the system are more often than not allowed to act with impunity. Within the past century reforms have begun in redistribution of planets for the local corporations and senators with little oversight, allowing them to basically become total rulers of them, though this was not the intention.

Sheev Palpatine and Padme debate about this, Padme being a fresh out of school young political student thrust into leadership only having holovids and data to have examined about the political maneuvers of the senate. Palpatine insists that it’s more cynical than her young eyes can perceive, that even Chancellor Valorum, a generally seeming noble man is simply too mired by the fear of not ensuring the republic’s policies and maintaining of the status quo in seeking to keep certain members of the senate happy and the republic intact with it’s taxation and inability to actual enforce it’s laws and take the time to pass laws that would ensure the safety of the people, instead opting to take the information of his bureaucratic advisors to take easier paths rather than the strong ones. Palpatine states that they would rather listen to the corporations who make the republic profits rather than the people who actually need help.

Anakin is there among Padme’s people as this debate is happening, taking in the issues and struggles, and the seemingly sincere, and strong handed stance, that Palpatine suggests. Afterward, Palpatine acknowledges the boy, asking about him. To which the Padme as the Queen introduces him by his name Anakin, allowing Anakin to explain who he is. Palpatine is intrigued by the boy, offering him a candy, and lending a seeming sympathetic ear to him and his home planet’s plight, complimenting his wisdom and skill.

After Qui-Gon briefs the jedi council on his findings and his perception that the dark cloaked figure that attacked them was a sith, which the council members are uncertain to dismissive of as a notion. Obi is surprised by this notion though. When Qui speaks to them on Anakin, he refers to a vision seen by jedi long ago, a child born of a mother unable to conceive, destined to bring balance to the force, his perception being that Anakin could be that child.

At the senate hearing, Padme’s frustration builds, especially when a holo recording is shown of Padme’s ship dropping the spice out as a way to suggest that Padme was trying to get rid of evidence of a trade deal that Padme had agreed to with the trade federation that justified their intrusion in Naboo space. Padme makes an impassioned speech that that is an edited recording, that they were being attacked and that the jedi will attest to it. This causes a rumble amongst the senate members, as while the Chancellor has the authority to sanction such an action of sending the jedi, those who side with the trade federation/those who oppose what they feel is the senate’s elitism and overreach accuse Valorum of such things, citing that because Valorum sent the jedi for the Naboo they may have a bias under Valorum’s orders, leading Valorum to be fearful and panic amidst the criticism, desperately wanting to alleviate the concerns and ensure he’s not tarnished in the eyes of the senate, with the suggestion of his advisors, who Palpatine says have investments in the trade federation’s corporate holdings, essentially making them in their pockets.

The senate is split amongst many divisions of interests and alignments, many siding with Padme and thinking she’s being honest about her dropping the spice out and seeing it as a revolutionary act against the entanglements and illegal actions of the trade federation. While many others oppose the senate and side with the trade federation.

Valorum, wanting to appease the majority that he can, suggests that Padme defer this to allow an investigation of the issue by the courts. Padme rejects that, stating that it would only give the trade federation time to cover their actions and the courts are far too stagnant in bureaucracy to achieve anything in time to ensure more of her people don’t die. In her moment of anger and sadness, she Palpatine’s advice in making a claim of a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum’s leadership.

Mon Mothma is shown taking in Padme’s impassioned speech, moved by it. Bail, meanwhile, is shown speaking to Queen Breha of Alderaan, seeking assistance for his planet. She’s uncertain, stating that her planet is non violent, but Bail states that even then some need protection.

Qui debates with Obi about the merit of insisting upon Anakin, and how Qui’s constant resistance to the council’s regulations has led to Qui not being valued as much and not gaining a council seat, which Qui has no concern about it. Obi inquires of Qui’s thoughts about the dark figure being a sith, having read about them but knowing little real information. Qui gives him a brief history lesson on the sith being jedi who became corrupted by the dark side and abused their power, utilized the methods of an alien species called the sith and supplanted them in their world, eventually taking over the galaxy, the jedi fighting against them, the sith nearly killing each other for power. He states that the sith had resurgences after that, the most effective being the rule of two that centralized the power and ensured they couldn’t easily kill each other, but even that reign ended over a millennia ago.

Padme is left conflicted and feeling alone. Jar-Jar shows compassion to her in her moment of dejectedness, which she gratefully accepts, showing appreciation for him, Jar-Jar referring to how his own people won’t go down without a fight and has a strong army. She holds the necklace Anakin has given her and ponders her own biases and the elitism of her people, realizing what her best option is.

Anakin is given the test for being a jedi and is asks questions by members of the council, especially Mace and Yoda, who perceives him to be fearful, afraid of losing his mother.

Padme is given news of Palpatine being nominated for Chancellor, Palpatine being certain that their situation is likely to create a strong sympathy vote for them. Padme informs him that she’s returning to Naboo to be with her people, that she has a plan, and that this is the best option she feels she has.

Meanwhile, Qui-Gon, after Anakin’s test and the jedi declining to train him on the basis of him being too old, insists that meeting Anakin was no coincidence, that if the council won’t train him, he will, as Obi is ready to take the jedi trials. Obi is a bit displeased by this though, at Qui so readily seeming to replace him. Yoda says that Anakin’s future is clouded. The council then suggests to table this discussion for later, as Qui and Obi are needed to escort the Queen back to Naboo and discover who the dark warrior is.

While getting on the ship to Naboo, Obi states that Anakin is dangerous based on the council saying his future is clouded, which Qui shuts him down on, saying it should be enough for him that the council has agreed to deliberate the notion for now.

When they begin to arrive on Naboo, they speak on how to get past the blockade. Padme is certain they won’t kill her, as they need her to sign the treaty, but they will use violence to try and make the ship land, the only way they can avoid it is by coming out of hyperspace close enough to the planet to already be past the blockade. Captain Panaka asserts that no computer can calculate a perfect trajectory to avoid crashing into the planet. Qui-Gon suggests that he, Anakin and Obi-Wan reach out with the force to calculate it. Padme is uncertain at first, but she states that she trusts them and Anakin. Anakin isn’t sure he can do it. Qui-Gon instructs him to be calm, focus and allow his mind to be guided again. Obi is still unsure about trusting Anakin, but when he sees and feels Anakin’s potential he reaches out with them to connect to Anakin, showing trust in his powers and finding a bonding moment with Anakin through their connection and connection with Qui-Gon. Together, they’re able to perceive the correct coordinates and they use them to sneak past the blockade.

After they land back on Naboo, when Obi, after having seen Anakin’s potential and connecting with him, feeling humbled in how he now sees what Anakin has the potential for, he apologizes to Qui for his attitude and how it wasn’t his place. Qui tells him how proud he is of him and how wise he’s become, telling him that he can see that he will become a great jedi.

Padme then reveals herself as the Queen, having hidden as a handmaiden, to the gungans, in an act of humility to the gungans, asking for their help and admitting that her people haven’t given the gungans their due, and they haven’t always gotten along in general, but states that Naboo is home to both of them, that the galaxy and it’s problems are more important than their feud and that in order survive they must band together, that she will strive for the gungans to get proper representation in the senate and give them their fair share of profits for the mining of plasma under their supervision. The ruler of the gungans is pleased greatly by this, by the humility and offer and, wanting to protect his people as well, embraces the deal Padme has offered.

They strategize. The gungan army will be a ground assault, while Padme and her remaining soldiers will sneak into city with the jedi through the underwater tunnels, to capture the viceroy and get him to admit to his crimes. Some of her soldiers will take the fighters to go up and destroy the droid control ship.

Meanwhile, Sidious, contacting the viceroy, hearing about the gungans mobilizing, is quite displeased, perceiving that this was Padme’s plan all along, not understanding how she could do this, seeing this as out of character for her, unable to grasp Padme’s actions.

Anakin is told by Qui to stay behind near the ruins, but Ani doesn’t listen, following them. When they get there, Qui senses Anakin and tells him to hide in the cockpit of one of the fighters.

The battle to get to the hangar has led to more casualties of her men than she thought, her afraid they don’t have enough men to raid the palace and send out an attack against the droid control ship. But then she’s contacted by Bail Organa and Mon Mothma, who have rallied the combined efforts of the Chandrila and Alderaan pilots to assist, coming in to seek to destroy the droid control ship. Padme is uplifted by the support, her sending some of her men to assist them, but taking the majority in her siege on the palace.

The ship’s autopilot turns on, because Anakin activates the ship to attack the destroyers that show up. The ship takes off with the others, R2 insisting he turn back. Anakin says he won’t run away again.

Padme and the jedi are halted by Maul, who Qui and Obi step in to deal with, Maul eager to fight them. The duel builds, Qui being stabbed, to Obi’s anger, Obi lashing out and pushing Maul back, but being off balance in his emotions and Maul able to overcome him, pushing him off the edge into the shaft, Obi grabbing at something to hold himself up. Maul, having beaten a jedi, feeling pretty good about himself.

Meanwhile, Jar-Jar, being placed as head of the gungan army, isn’t a good fighter, but he is able to use his most seemingly useless trait, his clumsiness, to distract the droids, as the more proficient fighters are able to oppose them.

When Anakin is in space, he sees the same type of signal relay on droid control ship. Anakin realizes that the ship must have a place to enter with no shield to send the signal clearly. In this Anakin tries to find it using the force reaching out, but he can’t, becoming upset, which an injured Qui-Gon and in peril Obi-Wan sense, them connecting with him and helping him focus to find the opening, which he crashes through and is able to blow up the ship, with R2’s help, who aims the blasters to destroy the inner engines.

This shuts down the remaining droids against the gungans.

But the other two droid control ships around the planet, gaining word of the attack and destruction, begin sending further ground droids.

However, Padme is able to capture the viceroy, and get him to order the shut down of the other ships and admit to his crimes.

As Maul arrogantly taunts Obi’s situation by slashing at the area near him with his lightsaber. Obi, in his moment of connecting with Anakin, realizes his own mistake, his own arrogance and rigidness, and calms himself, focusing on Qui’s lightsaber, pulling it to himself as he leaps over Maul and slices at his bottom half, Maul falling down into shaft, his legs falling off too. Obi cries as Qui dies in his arms, telling him to train Anakin, that he will bring balance.

Afterwards, the people celebrate, Anakin is applauded for taking out the main control ship by some of the gungans and humans of Naboo, feeling pride and accomplishment in himself being able to take some action that could protect people. Padme thanks him personally, kissing him on the cheek, them both blushing.

But this moment of happiness is hampered, when he sees Obi, but no Qui, Obi apologizing, that he’s gone.

Obi insists to Yoda that he train Anakin as Obi gave his word to Qui, and that he will do it without the approval of the council if he must. Yoda, with hesitation, agrees, granting him the position of graduation to Jedi Knight and him taking on Anakin.

Anakin is fearful at Qui’s funeral, his body being burned, Anakin mourning his death, angry and sad, Padme takes his hand in a gesture of comfort. Anakin asks Obi what will happen to him now, Obi tells him that he will train him and he promises that he will become a jedi. Mace and Yoda state they’re now certain it was a sith and that the rule of two means it mustn’t have been the only one.

Palpatine is announced as Chancellor, is present at the uniting of the gungans and humans on Naboo, congratulates Anakin on his accomplishment, stating that he’s proven himself and will be of great interest.

The movie ends with the celebration.

Please review and tell me what you think!

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Peter Pan said:

Cloak of deception also really elevated Phantom menace and the prequels for me. It elevates the politics of the prequels in a great way.

I haven’t read much of the Prequel books. Would this be a good book to start with, or are there other books also dealing with the political backstory and expansion of the PT?

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LJDunk52 said:

Peter Pan said:

Cloak of deception also really elevated Phantom menace and the prequels for me. It elevates the politics of the prequels in a great way.

I haven’t read much of the Prequel books. Would this be a good book to start with, or are there other books also dealing with the political backstory and expansion of the PT?

I think it’s a good place to start. If you want to read more stories involving the politics before episode 1 you could read Darth Plagueis also. The later chapters play simultaneously with cloak of deception and kinda show the Sith’s perspective on everything. Also both Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and Darth Maul: Saboteur have tie ins with Cloak of Deception. The former takes place immediately after Cloak of Deception.

“Vader! Hologram, now!”

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Peter Pan said:

LJDunk52 said:

Peter Pan said:

Cloak of deception also really elevated Phantom menace and the prequels for me. It elevates the politics of the prequels in a great way.

I haven’t read much of the Prequel books. Would this be a good book to start with, or are there other books also dealing with the political backstory and expansion of the PT?

I think it’s a good place to start. If you want to read more stories involving the politics before episode 1 you could read Darth Plagueis also. The later chapters play simultaneously with cloak of deception and kinda show the Sith’s perspective on everything. Also both Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and Darth Maul: Saboteur have tie ins with Cloak of Deception. The former takes place immediately after Cloak of Deception.

That is very helpful, thanks. I’ll start with Cloak Of Deception, then Plagueis and go from there.

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I think the prequel reframes Obi-Wan as a consummate liar.

Obi-Wan wanted Luke to believe he was a good friend to Anakin. That Anakin was amazing star pilot and a cunning warrior. Best Starpilot in the galaxy. He never owned a droid Obi Wan claimed. Yoda was the Master who trained him, It was actually Qui-Gon. He also claimed Anakin wanted to give his son that lightsaber and Owen disagreed with his not minding his farming.

None of this is in the prequel. Anakin isn’t the best at anything. He even loses every duel he doesn’t win through trickery or murder.

Kenobi is a better lightsaber duelist than him. Dooku is better.

At best Anakin accidentally blows up a trade federation droid control ship in the phantom menace. and as a child could race pods as a prodigy

He has nothing on Luke in the OT who comes from nowhere and nothing, shakes the very fabric and foundations of the Empire. Outflies anyone that isn’t Vader. Outfights everyone and even defeats Vader in ROTJ.

Only Vader IN TESB is so terrifyingly strong. you would think in the Prequel it would lead up to that. The Great Jedi purge. But he is coward who kills defenseless children Younglings. He kills Tusken women and children.

Kills Dooku in murder instead of showing Mercy and letting him surrender.

Obi-Wan doesn’t even give Anakin the coup De grace on Mustafar. He just lets him burn. The way the Jedi act and don’t act in the prequel is absurd.

Mace we are just going to arrest Palpatine with a few Jedi. Yoda the Dark side clouds everything. And they keep making stupid political decisions on that Jedi council and allowing Sidious to use them as chess pieces.

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JadedSkywalker said:

I think the prequel reframes Obi-Wan as a consummate liar.

Obi-Wan wanted Luke to believe he was a good friend to Anakin. That Anakin was amazing star pilot and a cunning warrior. Best Starpilot in the galaxy. He never owned a droid Obi Wan claimed. Yoda was the Master who trained him, It was actually Qui-Gon. He also claimed Anakin wanted to give his son that lightsaber and Owen disagreed with his not minding his farming.

None of this is in the prequel. Anakin isn’t the best at anything. He even loses every duel he doesn’t win through trickery or murder.

Kenobi is a better lightsaber duelist than him. Dooku is better.

I think you keep saying this, and I disagree. Obi never says he’s the best warrior, he says he’s a cunning warrior. How does him losing fights a contradiction of that? Anakin still beat Dooku either way. Saying he was a cunning warrior, why would that mean he’s always a cunning warrior?

He does say he’s the best star pilot in the galaxy, yes, but… I don’t see how Obi thinking that about his friend is a contradiction. What you cite to me

Obi didn’t say he never owned a droid, he said he didn’t seem to remember owning a droid (I’d suggest him using a droid doesn’t mean he owned one, in theory), he also never owned R2D2.

Yoda is shown training younglings. How is Obi saying Yoda trained him a contradiction?

Obi didn’t say that Owen thought that Anakin didn’t mind his farming. While this and the lightsaber are criticisms I think similarly on as retcons, I think the Owen thing is at least somewhat buyable. Owen can not hold to Anakin’s ideals and think he should’ve stayed on tatooine and that can all be, in theory, things that Owen felt about Anakin separately from knowing Anakin fully personally I think.

At best Anakin accidentally blows up a trade federation droid control ship in the phantom menace. and as a child could race pods as a prodigy

We barely see Anakin’s piloting skills in the whole PT. He doesn’t fly poorly when we do see him I think, so I don’t see much of an issue. Do you think that Obi meant he was literally the best pilot in the galaxy?

He has nothing on Luke in the OT who comes from nowhere and nothing, shakes the very fabric and foundations of the Empire. Outflies anyone that isn’t Vader. Outfights everyone and even defeats Vader in ROTJ.

I don’t think this is much of an issue, to me, that Anakin isn’t the most important person or biggest threat during the clone wars. However, Grevious does refer that Anakin has a reputation.

Only Vader IN TESB is so terrifyingly strong. you would think in the Prequel it would lead up to that. The Great Jedi purge. But he is coward who kills defenseless children Younglings. He kills Tusken women and children.

Kills Dooku in murder instead of showing Mercy and letting him surrender.

I think Vader is shown to murder people who are defenseless and/or not fighting back and also torture people, as well as people who do fight back. Why is this a contradiction that Anakin, I think, does the same? I think the OT shows Vader as a selfish, petty and violent person.

Obi-Wan doesn’t even give Anakin the coup De grace on Mustafar. He just lets him burn. The way the Jedi act and don’t act in the prequel is absurd.

I don’t get this complaint much at all. It’s said that murdering an unarmed prisoner isn’t the Jedi perception, and you expect Obi-Wan to do it? You find that to be absurd?

Mace we are just going to arrest Palpatine with a few Jedi. Yoda the Dark side clouds everything. And they keep making stupid political decisions on that Jedi council and allowing Sidious to use them as chess pieces.

How do the Jedi council personally make decisions on politics? I think Mace too the council members he had available to confront Palpatine, while the others were elsewhere.

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JadedSkywalker said:
But he is coward who kills defenseless children Younglings. He kills Tusken women and children.

As well as choking his wife nearly to death. These are some of the worst parts of the PT for me (the competition is stiff). They make a mockery of Vader’s eventual redemption (as well as the supposed idea that there’s something tragic about his arc). There’s a place for people like who commit crimes like that and it’s not Force heaven.

There’s nothing in the writing of the PT that makes me feel any sympathy for Anakin and, as such, his fall is completely without emotional resonance for me. I know our friend D-spear feels differently and that’s fine, “art” (using the term loosely in this case) can, and does, strike different folks differently. But I doubt I’m alone in these sentiments.

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Well he is kind and unselfish in Phantom Menace at least. But yeah, the whole trilogy doesn’t show much about a character arc of good man who falls into madness, via a slow seduction to evil. One part of Revenge of the Sith he is just the same as ever and then he turns to the dark side fairly rapidly. Like the turn on a dime. Learn the dark side to save Padme. Yes, my soul is yours, I will do anything you ask of me. Just save her please.

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RangerofAquilae said:
There’s nothing in the writing of the PT that makes me feel any sympathy for Anakin and, as such, his fall is completely without emotional resonance for me.

I completely agree with your view.

In my opinion, Lucas’s biggest misstep in the Prequels was his unwillingness to acknowledge that the core concept of Order 66 was fundamentally flawed. It’s a common trap in screenwriting: you come up with an idea where all the puzzle pieces seem to fit perfectly, and it becomes difficult to let go. Lucas was probably delighted when he connected the throwaway reference to the “Clone Wars” in the Original Trilogy with the idea of a clone army that could be turned against the Jedi all at once. On paper, it must have seemed like an elegant solution. But as often happens, an idea that appears brilliant in isolation can fall apart when viewed in the context of the larger story. The massacre required the Jedi to remain implausibly oblivious until the very moment of the purge, and I suspect Lucas eventually realized that this created an enormous narrative problem.

As for Anakin, my starting point has always been his conversation with Luke on Endor in ROTJ.

That is the moment when Vader is finally forced to confront his past. The emotional weight of that scene is extraordinary. Vader is torn between his lingering desire to bring his pure-hearted son to the Dark Side and the crushing belief that he himself has gone too far to ever return. Beneath it all lies profound regret for the person he once was. The man I saw in that scene simply did not feel like the same person as the Anakin portrayed in the Prequels.

The Anakin I imagined was someone who devoted himself wholeheartedly to justice. In many ways, he was even more proactive and idealistic than Luke, who often seems to be carried along by circumstances rather than driving them. But because his moral compass was set just slightly wrong from the beginning, he was drawn inexorably toward tragedy. To me, that is the kind of man who naturally becomes the Vader we meet on Endor.

So what kind of person falls to the Dark Side? Yoda tells us repeatedly in ESB. It is someone consumed by fear, anger, and aggression, someone who chooses the quick and easy path.

The Prequels emphasize fear and anger as the gateway. But looking at the world around me, I’ve often found that people who are consumed by anger and fear were not especially sincere to begin with. By contrast, when a genuinely sincere person ends up committing injustice or even terrible crimes, I think the traits of the Dark Side emerge in a different sequence.

First, they begin choosing the quick and easy path. This choice is not necessarily driven by selfishness or malice. Quite the opposite: they convince themselves that it is the most effective way to accomplish something good. Yet every shortcut they take gradually erodes the very ideals that motivated them in the first place. Only after that do anger, fear, and hatred begin to take hold. To me, this progression has always felt like the most believable way for a fundamentally good person to drift, almost without realizing it, into corruption.

At the risk of sounding self-promotional, that philosophy became the foundation of my own rewrite of the Prequel Trilogy, which I recently completed.

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RangerofAquilae said:

As well as choking his wife nearly to death. These are some of the worst parts of the PT for me (the competition is stiff). They make a mockery of Vader’s eventual redemption (as well as the supposed idea that there’s something tragic about his arc).

There’s nothing in the writing of the PT that makes me feel any sympathy for Anakin and, as such, his fall is completely without emotional resonance for me. I know our friend D-spear feels differently and that’s fine, “art” (using the term loosely in this case) can, and does, strike different folks differently. But I doubt I’m alone in these sentiments.

I question what you all who say things like this think Vader was? Vader was accepting of the destruction of a whole planet of people. He supported the empire through that. He cut off his son’s hand. How is the idea that he was willing to murder children and choke his wife any surprise to you or any contradiction to his character in the OT?

JadedSkywalker said:

Well he is kind and unselfish in Phantom Menace at least. But yeah, the whole trilogy doesn’t show much about a character arc of good man who falls into madness, via a slow seduction to evil. One part of Revenge of the Sith he is just the same as ever and then he turns to the dark side fairly rapidly. Like the turn on a dime.

He seeks to rescue the clones and Obi-Wan in AOTC and ROTS.

Turn on a dime? I think he’s shown to be conflicted when he murders the younglings, but not so when he kills the sepratists. Even his attack on Padme I think something he’s shown more to do on impulse as a reaction to what he’s assumed is a betrayal and I think is shown to be something he regrets right after he stops, but then tries to pass the blame for I think.

twoyennan said:

I completely agree with your view.

In my opinion, Lucas’s biggest misstep in the Prequels was his unwillingness to acknowledge that the core concept of Order 66 was fundamentally flawed. It’s a common trap in screenwriting: you come up with an idea where all the puzzle pieces seem to fit perfectly, and it becomes difficult to let go. Lucas was probably delighted when he connected the throwaway reference to the “Clone Wars” in the Original Trilogy with the idea of a clone army that could be turned against the Jedi all at once. On paper, it must have seemed like an elegant solution. But as often happens, an idea that appears brilliant in isolation can fall apart when viewed in the context of the larger story. The massacre required the Jedi to remain implausibly oblivious until the very moment of the purge, and I suspect Lucas eventually realized that this created an enormous narrative problem.

Oblivious to what?

As for Anakin, my starting point has always been his conversation with Luke on Endor in ROTJ.

That is the moment when Vader is finally forced to confront his past. The emotional weight of that scene is extraordinary. Vader is torn between his lingering desire to bring his pure-hearted son to the Dark Side and the crushing belief that he himself has gone too far to ever return. Beneath it all lies profound regret for the person he once was. The man I saw in that scene simply did not feel like the same person as the Anakin portrayed in the Prequels.

The Anakin I imagined was someone who devoted himself wholeheartedly to justice. In many ways, he was even more proactive and idealistic than Luke, who often seems to be carried along by circumstances rather than driving them. But because his moral compass was set just slightly wrong from the beginning, he was drawn inexorably toward tragedy. To me, that is the kind of man who naturally becomes the Vader we meet on Endor.

So what kind of person falls to the Dark Side? Yoda tells us repeatedly in ESB. It is someone consumed by fear, anger, and aggression, someone who chooses the quick and easy path.

The Prequels emphasize fear and anger as the gateway. But looking at the world around me, I’ve often found that people who are consumed by anger and fear were not especially sincere to begin with. By contrast, when a genuinely sincere person ends up committing injustice or even terrible crimes, I think the traits of the Dark Side emerge in a different sequence.

First, they begin choosing the quick and easy path. This choice is not necessarily driven by selfishness or malice. Quite the opposite: they convince themselves that it is the most effective way to accomplish something good. Yet every shortcut they take gradually erodes the very ideals that motivated them in the first place. Only after that do anger, fear, and hatred begin to take hold. To me, this progression has always felt like the most believable way for a fundamentally good person to drift, almost without realizing it, into corruption.

At the risk of sounding self-promotional, that philosophy became the foundation of my own rewrite of the Prequel Trilogy, which I recently completed.

How is that the character of Vader in the original trilogy or his pursuit of turning Luke to dark side, which I think was using those he cares about to manipulate him? And as said I think in the OT itself, Vader had worked with the empire to hunt down the Jedi. How is this a pursuit of justice? Or the destruction of a planet that had no way of fighting back, which he has no reaction to? I think your version doesn’t connect to the OT’s character. He doesn’t even turn away from the dark side because Luke has shown him the error of fascism. Nobody in the OT even said Anakin was a good person.

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twoyennan said:

The Anakin I imagined was someone who devoted himself wholeheartedly to justice. In many ways, he was even more proactive and idealistic than Luke, who often seems to be carried along by circumstances rather than driving them. But because his moral compass was set just slightly wrong from the beginning, he was drawn inexorably toward tragedy. To me, that is the kind of man who naturally becomes the Vader we meet on Endor.

So what kind of person falls to the Dark Side? Yoda tells us repeatedly in ESB. It is someone consumed by fear, anger, and aggression, someone who chooses the quick and easy path.

The Prequels emphasize fear and anger as the gateway. But looking at the world around me, I’ve often found that people who are consumed by anger and fear were not especially sincere to begin with. By contrast, when a genuinely sincere person ends up committing injustice or even terrible crimes, I think the traits of the Dark Side emerge in a different sequence.

First, they begin choosing the quick and easy path. This choice is not necessarily driven by selfishness or malice. Quite the opposite: they convince themselves that it is the most effective way to accomplish something good. Yet every shortcut they take gradually erodes the very ideals that motivated them in the first place. Only after that do anger, fear, and hatred begin to take hold. To me, this progression has always felt like the most believable way for a fundamentally good person to drift, almost without realizing it, into corruption.

At the risk of sounding self-promotional, that philosophy became the foundation of my own rewrite of the Prequel Trilogy, which I recently completed.

1000% this.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and Terminator Ultimatum,

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Dagenspear said: I question what you all who say things like this think Vader was? Vader was accepting of the destruction of a whole planet of people. He supported the empire through that. He cut off his son’s hand. How is the idea that he was willing to murder children and choke his wife any surprise to you or any contradiction to his character in the OT?>

Sure, Vader was a bad guy in the OT. I mean, obviously! But there are important moral differences at play. Not every bad act is morally equivalent. For example, being part of, and supporting, a genocidal regime is not necessarily the same as committing genocide oneself. (Just as aiding and abetting a violent crime can be distinguished from the violent crime itself.) Sure it’s bad, but not as bad. When it comes to the destruction of Alderaan, Tarkin was the far worse actor.

And sure, violently attacking your son and causing him significant injury is bad. Very bad! But it would be much worse if that son was, say, unarmed, unable to fight back in any significant way, four years old, and ultimately killed rather than injured. Engaging Luke in combat is just not on the same moral level as murdering young children. Perhaps you disagree, in which case we’ll have to agree to disagree, my brother in the Force.

I should think it reasonable to expect Vader to be morally worse in the OT. After all, he should, by that point, be much farther along in his descent into evil and corruption by the Dark Side. But thanks to the PT, there really isn’t much of a descent at all (and hence, even less of an arc to his supposed tragedy). Vader is as bad as he’s ever seen to be on day 1. Actually, worse – since singlehandedly murdering a roomful of defenseless young children in cold blood is much worse than anything we see him do in the OT.

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RangerofAquilae said:

Sure, Vader was a bad guy in the OT. I mean, obviously! But there are important moral differences at play. Not every bad act is morally equivalent. For example, being part of, and supporting, a genocidal regime is not necessarily the same as committing genocide oneself. (Just as aiding and abetting a violent crime can be distinguished from the violent crime itself.) Sure it’s bad, but not as bad. When it comes to the destruction of Alderaan, Tarkin was the far worse actor.

It was specifically said he’d helped the empire to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. Did you think he had no hand in the genocide at all?

And sure, violently attacking your son and causing him significant injury is bad. Very bad! But it would be much worse if that son was, say, unarmed, unable to fight back in any significant way, four years old, and ultimately killed rather than injured. Engaging Luke in combat is just not on the same moral level as murdering young children. Perhaps you disagree, in which case we’ll have to agree to disagree, my brother in the Force.

Vader was the one who invited the fight. He lured his son there, tortured his friends to do it and I think is suggested to have wanted the fight. Taunted him and all if I remember correctly. When Luke was standing on the platform in ROTJ, weapon off I think, Vader threw his lightsaber at him.

I should think it reasonable to expect Vader to be morally worse in the OT. After all, he should, by that point, be much farther along in his descent into evil and corruption by the Dark Side. But thanks to the PT, there really isn’t much of a descent at all (and hence, even less of an arc to his supposed tragedy). Vader is as bad as he’s ever seen to be on day 1. Actually, worse – since singlehandedly murdering a roomful of defenseless young children in cold blood is much worse than anything we see him do in the OT.

The OT outright has it said that Vader helped the empire destroy the Jedi. How does it make sense that Palpatine would at all be willing to make Anakin his apprentice, or that Anakin would be willing to even be a part of the empire if he wasn’t capable of doing it already at the beginning. You suggest there’s difference between supporting genocide and actually doing the killing, but I’d question what is the actual difference? He’s not the one swinging the sword, he’s just directing the soldiers to?

You also say that he’d be worse in the OT than in the PT. Isn’t he? He’s doing it purely on order of Palpatine in the PT, whose basically holding his wife’s life as a bargaining chip. His actions are done under the duress of gaining more dark side power to ensure Padme’s survival. He has no such motive in the OT. He just goes with it because. Similar with the situation with Luke. His targetting of Luke in the OT is more controlled, focused. Attacking Padme I think is more impulsive, reactive, he’s suggested I think to have not injured in a serious way. Compared to his actions against Luke.

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NeverarGreat said:

1000% this.

How is that the character of Vader in the original trilogy or his pursuit of turning Luke to dark side, which I think was using those he cares about to manipulate him? And as said I think in the OT itself, Vader had worked with the empire to hunt down the Jedi. How is this a pursuit of justice? Or the destruction of a planet that had no way of fighting back, which he has no reaction to? I think your version doesn’t connect to the OT’s character. He doesn’t even turn away from the dark side because Luke has shown him the error of fascism. Nobody in the OT even said Anakin was a good person, to my memory.

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Dagenspear said:
It was specifically said he’d helped the empire to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. Did you think he had no hand in the genocide at all?

My mention of genocide was in reference to the destruction of Alderaan, which you mentioned in your post. I didn’t have the extermination of the Jedi in mind, but I can see how one could think of it in that way.

But even so: hunting down and killing extremely dangerous combatants who are well trained, armed, and capable of fighting back is much less despicable than destroying an entire civilian population (as in the case of the destruction of Alderaan) or murdering defenseless young children.

At least to my moral sensibilities (as someone who’s read Anscombe). YMMV!

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 (Edited)

I think the thing that’s being overlooked here is that the point of Vader’s arc in Return of the Jedi is that even the most monstrous people can be redeemed. If you’re looking at Vader’s actions and saying that he’s beyond redemption than you’re missing the point.

Maybe you don’t agree, but that’s what makes Luke’s actions so extraordinary. The fact that he was willing to see the good in Vader despite everything he’d done, despite the fact that Vader is a genocidal, ruthless monster.
Return of the Jedi is about unconditional love. Anakin learns to love his son, Luke chooses to love his father, Han allows Leia to choose who she wants to be with.

Besides, Vader pays the consequences. His redemption comes with death, and being a force ghost is a complete release of self and becoming a pure agent of the force. It’s not like the christian idea of heaven where you get to live in completely luxury forever. Obi-Wan’s existence as a ghost is entirely dedicated to guiding Luke. In this sense, Anakin both pays the consequences in the physical realm whilst having to atone for his actions in the spiritual realm.

Star Wars, Paleontology, Superhero, Godzilla fan. Darth Vader stan. 23. ADHD. College Student majoring in English Education.
My Star Wars Fan-Edits