Return Of The Jedi - a general Random Thoughts thread — Page 13

RogueLeader said:

If it Lucas Luke and Leia were going to be siblings from the very beginning, I do feel like he would’ve handled it differently. Yes, the trilogy is more so Luke’s story than anyone else’s, but the revelation and what it means for Luke isn’t given the same weight for Leia, even if the implication is pretty much the same.

Of course, Luke idealized his father, wanting to be like him, so discovering what his father became has this consequence of Luke wondering if he could become that too. Whereas when Leia was adopted by the Organas, they raised her as her parents. So I don’t think Leia ever spent much time wondering who her biological parents were, or wanting to be like them. The Organas were enough for her to look up to.

I know the EU and Canon both explore Leia’s feeling on Vader being her father a little, but it could’ve been interesting for the movies to explore that more.

There is a very strange, almost serendipitous scene in Empire Strikes Back that has always fascinated me. It happens after the scene where Chewie flips out and starts attacking Storm Troopers just before Han is about to be lowered into the carbon-freezing pit. Han intervenes and tries to calm Chewie down before things get out of control. While this is happening, Boba Fett aims his blaster at Chewie, but then Vader stops him from firing by pushing down the barrel of his blaster. Then - there’s this weird shot of Leia just staring at Vader for a few seconds. This is followed by a shot of Vader, seemingly staring back at her (although we can’t tell for sure because of his mask). Leia then walks over to Chewie and starts trying to calm him down. It’s the strangest thing, as if Leia and Vader instinctually exchanged some non-verbal agreement to prevent the situation from escalating further.

I know it can’t possibly mean much. The idea of Leia being Vader’s daughter didn’t exist when that scene was written and filmed. But it’s another one of those uncanny, serendipitous coincidences that takes on an interesting new dimension retroactively in light of later revelations.

G&G-Fan said:

I read it as her recognizing the guy who captured and tortured her and being afraid of Vader.

I mean, at that point they’ve already had a nice banquet together so she would be way beyond the point of just recognizing him. I’m sure she is afraid of Vader, but she also looks pissed. Like, she hates Vader.

Which would’ve made playing up her role more in ROTJ even better. Despite what his father has become, he still has love for him. Leia on the other hand doesn’t. When Vader says, “If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will” I think Leia totally would have, which makes Luke’s reaction and fury more compelling. People have talked about not seeing a reason why Luke would’ve turned, but I can easily see Leia wanting to kill Vader and being seduced by that power.

And that is a really interesting observation, Channel72! It is one of those things that retroactively has a little more subtext, even if that wasn’t the intention when it was filmed.

Another serendipitous thing in Empire is obviously Leia sensing Luke hanging underneath Cloud City. Clearly when they filmed it it was more about Luke calling out to Leia and Leia simply hearing it, but again, it retroactively becomes a hint toward Leia being “the other” Yoda referred to.”

Making Leia “the other” and going back to Tatooine were two decisions that I think make ROTJ arguably less interesting from a new worlds and new characters perspective, but both of those things were at least set up to an extent in Empire. Though Leia kissing Luke is the only thing that still makes the sibling thing kind of weird. If they had kept some of the other deleted scenes of them to, I don’t think they would’ve been able to make that retcon!

Channel72 said:
Also, Leia seemingly has no reaction to the fact that this implies Vader is also her father. (Luke tells her Vader is his father in the same scene.) Maybe her reaction is delayed or she doesn’t immediately make the connection. She’s upset a few minutes later after Luke leaves, when Han comes by. But it’s implied she’s upset mostly because Luke had to leave.

When Leia makes her aghast “Your father!” I always imagine her thinking, “Boy am I glad Darth Vader isn’t MY father! I can’t even imagine…!”

Channel72 said:
There is a very strange, almost serendipitous scene in Empire Strikes Back that has always fascinated me. It happens after the scene where Chewie flips out and starts attacking Storm Troopers just before Han is about to be lowered into the carbon-freezing pit. Han intervenes and tries to calm Chewie down before things get out of control. While this is happening, Boba Fett aims his blaster at Chewie, but then Vader stops him from firing by pushing down the barrel of his blaster. Then - there’s this weird shot of Leia just staring at Vader for a few seconds. This is followed by a shot of Vader, seemingly staring back at her (although we can’t tell for sure because of his mask). Leia then walks over to Chewie and starts trying to calm him down. It’s the strangest thing, as if Leia and Vader instinctually exchanged some non-verbal agreement to prevent the situation from escalating further.

This moment had always intrigued me, too, especially since it’s underscored with a very ominous instance of the Imperial March that gives the impression This Means Something. I think I’ve more or less put it together thanks to the transcript of Irvin Kershner blocking that scene out from Alan Arnold’s Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back. (Excerpt: https://phantastiqa.com/unscripted-how-the-famous-i-love-you-i-know-scene-really-came-together/)

From that we can see: (a) Kershner wanted to make it clear the reason Chewie and Leia are brought there in the first place is so Han will “behave” and (b) Kershner and Fisher had great difficulty figuring out what Leia should be doing exactly before they take Han in to be frozen (at one point Fisher suggests she slaps Lando - and then she actually does it!).

I think Leia’s glare at Vader is meant to handle both those things. She’s realizing that Darth Vader knew Han wouldn’t cause trouble while she (she especially) and Chewie are there and that’s why they’ve been brought there in the first place.

I think it gets even cooler if you read into it further (and the scene makes it very easy to do so): Leia realizes Darth Vader knows Han Solo loves her. Like, he can sense it with the force and shit. And it confirms for her that Han isn’t just attracted to her or just “really really like” her, he’s seriously, genuinely, deeply in love with her. And I think here is where she goes from “attracted/ really really like” Han to being in seriously capital-L love with him herself, and admits it to him. And his “I know” response doesn’t bother her, because she also knows he loves her, too.

Emre1601 said:

An article on the crowd reaction in the movie theater watching the end of Return Of The Jedi back in 1983:

“Star Wars fans scream for Darth Vader twist in 1983 reaction video” at the Digital Fix
 

The video:

“Darth Vader’s Redemption - Cinema Reaction (1983)”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhHn6oD-B7M : a 2 minute video at Clavis YouTube channel.
 

I found it interesting to see, but if I were in the movie theater I would have gone back to a later viewing to try and watch the ending in more quiet surroundings!

Sorry to say but that’s 100% fake. The crowd noises are memes and clips from other movies. I’m a bit stunned that a site that seems to take itself as seriously as that one appears to fell for it.

^ Lol it’s all good. I think there are a few fake vintage reactions videos going around at this point. I know there’s at the very least there’s one for “I am your father.”

Barfolomew said:

Channel72 said:
There is a very strange, almost serendipitous scene in Empire Strikes Back that has always fascinated me. It happens after the scene where Chewie flips out and starts attacking Storm Troopers just before Han is about to be lowered into the carbon-freezing pit. Han intervenes and tries to calm Chewie down before things get out of control. While this is happening, Boba Fett aims his blaster at Chewie, but then Vader stops him from firing by pushing down the barrel of his blaster. Then - there’s this weird shot of Leia just staring at Vader for a few seconds. This is followed by a shot of Vader, seemingly staring back at her (although we can’t tell for sure because of his mask). Leia then walks over to Chewie and starts trying to calm him down. It’s the strangest thing, as if Leia and Vader instinctually exchanged some non-verbal agreement to prevent the situation from escalating further.

This moment had always intrigued me, too, especially since it’s underscored with a very ominous instance of the Imperial March that gives the impression This Means Something. I think I’ve more or less put it together thanks to the transcript of Irvin Kershner blocking that scene out from Alan Arnold’s Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back. (Excerpt: https://phantastiqa.com/unscripted-how-the-famous-i-love-you-i-know-scene-really-came-together/)

From that we can see: (a) Kershner wanted to make it clear the reason Chewie and Leia are brought there in the first place is so Han will “behave” and (b) Kershner and Fisher had great difficulty figuring out what Leia should be doing exactly before they take Han in to be frozen (at one point Fisher suggests she slaps Lando - and then she actually does it!).

I think Leia’s glare at Vader is meant to handle both those things. She’s realizing that Darth Vader knew Han wouldn’t cause trouble while she (she especially) and Chewie are there and that’s why they’ve been brought there in the first place.

I think it gets even cooler if you read into it further (and the scene makes it very easy to do so): Leia realizes Darth Vader knows Han Solo loves her. Like, he can sense it with the force and shit. And it confirms for her that Han isn’t just attracted to her or just “really really like” her, he’s seriously, genuinely, deeply in love with her. And I think here is where she goes from “attracted/ really really like” Han to being in seriously capital-L love with him herself, and admits it to him. And his “I know” response doesn’t bother her, because she also knows he loves her, too.

Love this take. And how you read into further makes it even more interesting as well. I love idea that Vader, who is both her arch enemy and her father, indirectly makes her realize how much Han truly loves her. Arguably the turmoil Vader puts them through is what brings them closer together. I do like that added layer, especially if you put it into the context of the prequels. Anakin lost his love because of his actions, but his actions as Vader helps his daughter find love, even though it is completely unintentional.

I don’t know if the novelization goes into Leia’s head during this scene, but I’d love a new novelization that added these kind of character point-of-views that added even more depth to these scenes we know by heart.

What version of the film are you watching?

Feel free to share more thoughts as you watch through it! Would love to hear them.

Barfolomew said:

Channel72 said:
There is a very strange, almost serendipitous scene in Empire Strikes Back that has always fascinated me. It happens after the scene where Chewie flips out and starts attacking Storm Troopers just before Han is about to be lowered into the carbon-freezing pit. Han intervenes and tries to calm Chewie down before things get out of control. While this is happening, Boba Fett aims his blaster at Chewie, but then Vader stops him from firing by pushing down the barrel of his blaster. Then - there’s this weird shot of Leia just staring at Vader for a few seconds. This is followed by a shot of Vader, seemingly staring back at her (although we can’t tell for sure because of his mask). Leia then walks over to Chewie and starts trying to calm him down. It’s the strangest thing, as if Leia and Vader instinctually exchanged some non-verbal agreement to prevent the situation from escalating further.

This moment had always intrigued me, too, especially since it’s underscored with a very ominous instance of the Imperial March that gives the impression This Means Something. I think I’ve more or less put it together thanks to the transcript of Irvin Kershner blocking that scene out from Alan Arnold’s Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back. (Excerpt: https://phantastiqa.com/unscripted-how-the-famous-i-love-you-i-know-scene-really-came-together/)

From that we can see: (a) Kershner wanted to make it clear the reason Chewie and Leia are brought there in the first place is so Han will “behave” and (b) Kershner and Fisher had great difficulty figuring out what Leia should be doing exactly before they take Han in to be frozen (at one point Fisher suggests she slaps Lando - and then she actually does it!).

I think Leia’s glare at Vader is meant to handle both those things. She’s realizing that Darth Vader knew Han wouldn’t cause trouble while she (she especially) and Chewie are there and that’s why they’ve been brought there in the first place.

I think it gets even cooler if you read into it further (and the scene makes it very easy to do so): Leia realizes Darth Vader knows Han Solo loves her. Like, he can sense it with the force and shit. And it confirms for her that Han isn’t just attracted to her or just “really really like” her, he’s seriously, genuinely, deeply in love with her. And I think here is where she goes from “attracted/ really really like” Han to being in seriously capital-L love with him herself, and admits it to him. And his “I know” response doesn’t bother her, because she also knows he loves her, too.

Yeah, that’s very interesting. The question of why Leia and Chewie are even there is also something I wondered about. Like, we see Leia and Chewie with Han and broken Threepio in the Cloud City jail cell. Then Lando takes Leia and Chewie into custody, handing Han off to be carbon-frozen for Vader/Boba Fett. So why even bring Leia and Chewie to the carbon freezing facility? (And did Lando tell someone to go fetch a net for Chewie so he could carry around C3PO on his back? And also, when Han, Leia and Chewie were “arrested” during the dinner scene, did Han or Chewie like ask one of the Stormtroopers or maybe Lando to go fetch broken Threepio from the hotel room and bring him to the jail cell?? Whatever.)

Anyway, I don’t know if I quite buy the explanation Kershner provides, which is that Leia/Chewie serve as leverage over Han so he doesn’t try to escape. I mean, usually Vader would just rely on force - his Stormtroopers - to make sure somebody doesn’t escape. That or they could just knock Han out - like drug him or something, or use more restrictive restraints. Then just leave Leia/Chewie in the cell. They wouldn’t need to be physically present in the carbon freezing facility to serve as leverage over Han. I mean, clearly Chewie is more of a liability to Vader than he’s worth for whatever leverage over Han his presence provides, since Chewie is basically a volatile 7 foot tall monster with incredible strength.

The reason I always thought Leia and Chewie were actually brought to the carbon freezing facility was because Vader already planned on “altering the deal” again, and taking Leia/Chewie into Imperial custody. Presumably, Vader would want Leia as a prisoner, since she is the leader of a Rebel cell and could provide valuable intel. Or just the fact that she was supposed to be executed in the last movie, so she’s technically an escaped prisoner, and provides leverage over Luke, so obviously Vader wouldn’t just leave her with Lando. Vader brought Chewie and Leia to the carbon freezing chamber so they would be physically out of Lando’s custody (the Cloud City prison cell), but Vader waited until after the carbon freezing experiment was finished to actually tell Lando he was being fucked over again, just to ensure Lando’s cooperation during the carbon freezing process.

To me, that makes much more sense than Kershner’s explanation that Leia and Chewie were there to keep Han in check. But I mean, he actually wrote the scene so what do I know?

BTW, I love how everything Vader says sounds intimidating, even when he’s just issuing mundane technical orders like “Reset the chamber for Skywalker”. I like to imagine Vader giving mundane technical instructions, in James Earl Jones’ booming voice, like: “Click the Start Menu. Select Control Panel and click Device Manager. It is your destiny.”