Regarding the thing about Vader always being Luke’s father, I found some info about why Lucas might have said this.
Originally, in the very early drafts, there were two characters. Kane Starkiller/Akira Valor/The Starkiller, a half-machine/half-man and Jedi-in-hiding, who is the father of the main character Annikin Starkiller (who’d later go on to be Luke Skywalker). And Darth Vader, a general for the Empire. The two characters became combined into one.
George Lucas said:
“Well, to be very honest with you, when I wrote the very very first script it was about Annikin Starkiller and his two kids. And, uh, he was a rogue Jedi, and there were remnants of that [draft] that found its way into the final Star Wars.”
-MovieFone Unscripted, 2005So from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. It was just discarded but then we ended up getting something that more resembled the original idea.
“Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father”?
You mean this guy, General Vader:
was always gonna be the father of this guy (Luke)?
I think the headcannon thread is here, and the time travel thread, here 😃
Sorry, my attempt at a joke. On a serious note I don’t quite understand what you wrote. If you mean that from watching the Moviefone video (link below), you now think because George said:
“the very very first script it was about, um, Annikin Starkiller and his two kids. And, er, he was a rogue Jedi, and, um, there were remnants of that that sort of found its way into the final Star Wars.”:
You state that:
“So from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. It was just discarded but then we ended up getting something that more resembled the original idea”.
If this is what you meant, then it is indeed from a certain point of view, though probably just yours? It seems quite a stretch, some mental gymnastics occurring, or maybe just some headcannon, to me. No offence, you believe whatever it is that you want to believe. But I am not sure many others will agree with your certain point of view, based on your post above.
George is being disingenuous (to use a term from the OP of this thread) again here in this interview, because Annikin was not a rogue Jedi in “the very very first script”. We know this since in the “very very first script” Annikin is the son of the Jedi Kane Starkiller, who Kane takes to General Luke Skywalker to hopefully become Luke’s Padawan Learner and to eventually finish Annikin’s Jedi training. Nor was the “very very first script” about Annikin and his two kids. As already mentioned, Annikin was the son of Kane Starkiller - it was Kane who happened to have two kids. Annikin himself had no kids:
The full script can be read here: The Star Wars – Rough Draft - at the Starkiller: The Jedi Bendu Script Site (at StarWarz.com)
Unless you or George are referencing a different script in the interview? Can you provide a link to this script that George is describing?
The Q&A interview you quote can be seen in full here: “Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith’ | Unscripted | Hayden Christensen, George Lucas” 2005 video, at the Moviefone YouTube channel. The question is at 37 seconds into the video. The transcript from the relevant section of the video in full:
Question from Hayden Christensen:
“At what point in planning Star Wars did you decide that Darth Vader was going to be the central character?”
Answer from George Lucas:
"Well, to be very honest with you when I wrote the very very first script it was about, um, Annikin Starkiller and his two kids. And, er, he was a rogue Jedi, and, um, there were remnants of that that sort of found its way into the final Star Wars. So I would say right from the very beginning Darth Vader was a central character.”
I found it more interesting that George does not say that Vader was the central character in the video, or claim that the Saga was always the ‘Tragedy of Darth Vader’. Just that right from the beginning that Darth Vader was a central character. But, back on topic:
The character General Vader in the “very early drafts” was not the father of Luke. Nor was he the father of Annikin, or Kane, nor the father of any other kids. At this time Vader was ‘just’ a general for the Empire. He was not a Jedi or a Sith. He did not have any force abilities.
At some point later it seems the General Vader character was merged with this Prince Valorum character. Valorum was indeed a Sith Knight, who does use the Force, and wears a mask.
It is also feasible that at some time later some characteristics from the Jedi Kane Starkiller character, a man who slowly had become more machine than man, due to injuries from fighting over the many years, who was incidentally also the father of Annikin, also merged with the evolving character of Vader.
Then, at some point later, Vader possibly also merges (mainly the name Annikin) with Kane Starkiller’s son.
Though all four of these characters, with their various traits and attributes, merging together or being swapped out, and evolving over time (and maybe with others too?) all throughout the synopsis and early drafts of Star Wars… still does not equate to “Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father”. If anything, it further highlights this was not the case, and never was, until George Lucas wrote that 2nd draft of Empire Strikes Back in April of 1978.
The above text is abridged from the The Origin of Darth Vader: The Name article at the “Force Material” website. With images of the four characters drawn for “The Star Wars” comics in 2014 (based on Lucas’ 1974 rough draft).
For anyone unfamiliar when it was that George Lucas retconned Luke’s father to be Darth Vader, and hasn’t yet read the OP’s Category No 5 (this and the images above are also for me to remind myself about the evolution of Vader):
The first mention of Vader being Luke’s father (or being anyone else’s father), and also the first mention of Annikin/Anakin became Vader is in the 2nd draft for Empire Strikes Back, in April 1978. Even the 1st draft for Empire, written by Leigh Brackett in February 1978, it is still written as Luke’s father and Vader being two completely separate characters. This 1st draft script also has Luke’s father appearing to Luke as a force ghost and warning him of the danger posed by Vader, along with the mention of Luke’s sister, Nellith:
The Empire Strikes Back – First Draft by Leigh Brackett can be found at the Starkiller: The Jedi Bendu Script Site (at StarWarz.com)
Lucas is also on record in Rinzler’s Making Of book: “The thing about Vader wasn’t developed until the 4th draft [of Star Wars], when I was sorting out Vader’s real character and who he was”. Yet even here Vader and Annikin are still two completely separate characters:
Even in this 4th draft of Star Wars, the backstory has Vader written a disciple of Ben Kenobi, who betrayed the Jedi, and stole a kyber crystal from Ben, to become a Sith Lord. Annikin, Luke’s father, died at the Battle of Condawn, slain by Vader. Kenobi then defeats Vader, nearly killing him, and leaving Vader in need of the mask to breathe:
Evan over a year later, in the August 1977 Rolling Stone interview with George Lucas:
Lucasfilm management and employees also now state that Vader was not Luke’s father until the 2nd draft of Empire Strikes Back:
Phil Szostak, the Lucasfilm Creative Art Manager & author, in his 2019 “Star Wars Mythbusting” twitter thread:
https://twitter.com/PhilSzostak/status/1157776519923552256 (when debunking George’s “Darth Vader = Dark Father” claim)
‘Darth Vader is not Luke Skywalker’s father until the April 1, 1978 second draft of Empire Strikes Back.’:
There is a little more on the above in my recent post here: Has anyone read the book ‘The Secret History of Star Wars’ by Michael Kaminski?
Why not give The Star Wars comic from 2014 a read, and those early scripts for both Star Wars and Empire. I found them to be both interesting writing and stories in their own right. A “What If?” alternative universe type of thing.
Maybe give “The Secret History of Star Wars” book a read too. It has a lot of cited information on early Star Wars, including the evolution of how Vader came to be.
Out of curiosity, why did you delete this part of your post here after a month?:
“You guys on here are only angry and upset about George changing and retconning Star Wars history because he won’t release the OOT”
^ I am paraphrasing that above, as I do not remember the exact words you used.
If you still genuinely think this, I would urge you to look through the history of this forum, read the old posts from the time, or the general round up in the ‘Other websites / communities supposed issues with the OT•com, the Original Trilogy, or the unaltered theatrical cuts.’ section of An Index & Help Thread for Original Trilogy Discussion. It may help you learn more about the history of this forum, and why people on here appear to have always thought highlighting George Lucas altering Star Wars history is important. Some even wrote books and helped make or contribute to documentaries on it.