LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread — Page 3

NeverarGreat said:

Something that I’m surprised doesn’t get mentioned is how in the Extended version of ROTK, Aragorn literally decapitates an unarmed messenger. This is so far from the book’s portrayal of Aragorn as a noble king that it’s honestly shocking, and for me counts as character assassination.

Man if I could fix this scene I’d finally have my fanedit of ROTK done. I love the idea of its inclusion but don’t understand why they couldn’t use some restraint with this scene. The way the literal “mouth” keeps scoffing and of course Aragorn’s tantrum is very off-putting. I remember back on the IMDB message boards someone suggesting that in their heads they fixed it by saying that the Mouth in the Jackson films is not so much an emissary as someone just taunting and trying to cause pain, basically an orc, so that he deserved the head chopping. It doesn’t work for me anymore though. It’s a bad scene that could’ve been great.

My point is, the films are no untouchable masterpieces, and they’re allowed to take liberties, even ones I vehemently disagree with. I think it’s more productive to approach these adaptations and flights of fancy where they are and in the context of their time, just like the books themselves. And while it’s good and right to point out where they fall short, it’s also good to recognize where they strive to do justice to their material, and in many ways, especially with regards to production, the new series so far succeeds.

This

Well said, Nev. Today’s the only day I couldn’t take a lunch break to watch so I can’t wait until the little one goes down for bedtime!

Whew. Great episode.

I’m a bit fearful about the stranger. Since episode 2 I’d felt he was Gandalf (or a wizard). This episode swings me back towards Sauron (how it seemed when he first landed).

My only hope comes from the song Poppy sings and that’s repeated in the end credits. It’s a variation on a poem Tolkien wrote, that Gandalf sends to Frodo. Gives me some hope.

Also, if we got nothing else from this series but this scene, I might actually say it would have been worth it:
https://twitter.com/myelessar/status/1573447041040240656?s=20&t=h72e2sZLfRLUf8A_8SOZow

Udûn

Returning to the idea of whether The Stranger could be Gandalf, I went down a rabbit hole from twitter to reddit to Tolkien’s Last Writings from The Peoples of Middle Earth. There’s a passage about Glorfindel and discusses his meeting Gandalf (posted below). This passage implies that Gandalf may have visited Middle-Earth earlier than is otherwise known, and even that he might have met “others deeper in Middle-earth.” This could suggest that Gandalf may have had early encounter with Hobbits/Harfoots. The big question, I suppose, is why no-one else would know about it, or at least not enough to “record” any of it in ME history. Could it be possible that Gandalf met the harfoots and had an inpact on this story large enough to justify all the screen-time, but in a way that the other peoples who recorded history wouldn’t know about it?

dgraham414 said:

At this point, I don’t at all think Halbrand is Sauron.

Eeeeeh I don’t know about that!

I have a list of clues:

1. Halbrand’s very first line is “The tides of fate are flowing. Yours may be flowing in, or out.” This is something Galadriel says to Frodo when she is tested by the ring in Fellowship. Basically, her deciding NOT to become Sauron.

2. 30 seconds later, he says “Looks can be deceiving." Very suspicious opening statements by someone who is NOT Sauron the deceiver.

3. In contrast with the other “unwilling king”, Aragorn, Halbrand has a streak of cruelty, from pushing off his companions on the driftwood to get eaten by the worm to brutally beating up and breaking the bones of the Numenorians in the street fight (even after they were done with him and walking away).

4. When adrift at sea, Galadriel calls attention to his medallion, of which Halbrand mentions he “found it on a dead man”. I feel like this is the kind of line they put there to show him being funny or chummy, but really we need to consider that it might be the literal truth.

5. Halbrand’s speech about giving people a “means of mastering their fears so you can master them” feels like a good strategy for corrupting people. I don’t think a true King in Tolkien’s world would subscribe to this type of manipulation.

6. When Galadriel tells Halbrand about the mutiny of elves she says “they could not distinguish me from the evil I was fighting”. Half a second later, rack focus to Halbrand.

7. In the same scene, Halbrand says he’s sorry about her brother. It seems like an actual apology. I think what may be happening here is that Sauron may have sincerely tried to start over after the defeat of Morgoth, and since he has the ability to change appearance he intended to disappear in Numenor.

8. Halbrand is very good at making weapons. I remember from Lord of the Rings that “the hands of a king are the hands of a healer.” We see Aragorn try to heal Frodo with the kingsfoil after he’s stabbed on weathertop, and later he heals Eowyn after the battle. Again, in Tolkien’s world I don’t think a true king’s greatest skills would be smithing and manipulation. That sounds more like someone else.

9. Adar says he killed Sauron after having sacrificed so many orcs for his experiments. Halbrand seems to remember Adar, but not the other way around. Perhaps Halbrand was previously in another form.

10. Possibly the biggest clue yet, as Halbrand is walking out of the room, Adar asks “Who are you?” Cut to Halbrand from behind, who pauses slightly, doesn’t answer and then leaves. I feel like this moment wouldn’t exist if we are to take Halbrand’s identity at face value. So what identity would make for a satisfying reveal? My backup idea was the Witch-king, but I don’t think the Witch-king is someone that is revealed rather it is what someone becomes.

11. After the battle, when Halbrand is talking about the feeling he got fighting alongside Galadriel, he says he wishes he could “bind it to my very being.” That word bind reminds us of “one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.” It’s just too suspicious to be coincidence.

12. I’m not a makeup expert but I feel like they’ve given Halbrand some heavy eye shadow in such a way that to me he almost looks like an evil-Aragorn. Just waiting for the goatee reveal.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I think if Halbrand is Sauron it would be the most compelling development for Galadriel’s character. It plays into her brothers words, “Sometimes we cannot know [which light to follow] until we have touched the darkness.”

Galadriel has been headstrong and determined all season. She’s also been stubborn and arrogant, and I think she’s in for a rude awakening. She basically dragged Halbrand back to Middle-Earth, gave him an army, and crowned him king, all because of a medallion that he “found on a dead man”. How crazy would it be if Gil-Galad was right that “the same wind that seeks to blow out a fire may also cause its spread”?

Completely agree, Peter Pan. Felt like some wasted opportunities, lost momentum.

dgraham, hehe!

Been wanting to talk about the show with people and didn’t realize there was a discussion here on this site! Of course I realize this with one episode left.

The last episode did slow down a bit, but I think my favorite part of the episode were the scenes between Theo and Galadriel. You could tell that as Galadriel was giving advice to Theo, she was sort of realizing she could apply some of that advice to herself. I catch myself doing that a lot, so it was an interesting dynamic to see.

Was it this past episode that ended with the title card switching from the Southlands to spooky voice, MoRdOr!?!?! Totally cheesy. Felt like the volcano in the distance spoke for itself.

I’m sure people are tired of Sauron hot takes, but I think both Halbrand and the Stranger are red herrings. I’m starting to think Halbrand may still have a personal connection to Sauron/Annatar in his backstory, but I’m kind of hoping that Annatar will show up in the final episode, and we’ll realize he has been buddy-buddy with Gil-Gahad and Celebrimbor this whole time. Maybe Annatar was the one who told them about the mithril, and has been fueling their fears and ambition.

Anyway, I’ve been enjoying it. I like being able to watch this and House of the Dragon side-by-side. Scratching two sides of that fantasy itch.
This might be a lame crutch, but I think if I had been showrunner, I would’ve had the opening titles be a lot of artistic close-ups of an unknown person writing a book titled “The Rings of Power”. So basically any gripes people have with the story could be written off as the series being an in-universe “epic” written by some character who is putting their own interpretation of the events of the Second Age.

I agree with pretty well all your point, RogueLeader.

I know that a lot of people seem to think this episode was a let down due to loss of momentum, but that’s kind of how all of Tolkien is, a repeated pattern of events and quiet recharge transitions to the next event. This episode fit that pattern quite well.

The question remains how or if they will land the season. Will we get a Sauron reveal? A Stranger reveal? A Galadriel full-circle resolution with Elrond or GilGalad?

From a fan-editing perspective, this whole thing is pretty tricky. There’s a lot of detail that was seemingly out there very intentionally, but there are also some baffling transitions and particulars. Some of the issues can easily be solved with slight kind trims, but if you cut some controversial things you’re going to also lose the connected parallelism.

With the idea of a movie edit, I’ve been toying with the idea of moving the entire Dwarf and Elrond story out into what would become movie 2. That would reduce the number of plot threads that the audience must track, keep the focus on Galadriel and the Harfoots, maintain Numenor as the big scenic location, and allow us to bring in the Southlands more organically as Galadriel realizes their importance. Another bonus would be holding back the strange Mithril plotline until we can know more fully where it’s going.

Perhaps even more dramatically, I’m thinking that the volcano stuff could be made more palatable in two ways:

1. Cut out the tunnel digging while Arondir is a prisoner. Instead, have him brought directly to Adar. This would also remove the question about how his army buddies were captured. When the water flows through the tunnels, we will assume that they were pre-existing, part of an ancient system that was designed to do this.

2. Cut the whole water and tunnel sequence, so that we aren’t sure what exactly happens when the key is turned. Just have the guy turn the key, the ground shake, and the volcano blow.

RogueLeader said:

Was it this past episode that ended with the title card switching from the Southlands to spooky voice, MoRdOr!?!?! Totally cheesy. Felt like the volcano in the distance spoke for itself.

Man I have so many thoughts but so little time! But yes, the latest episode, #7, ended with this. It also had the Balrog reveal, which to me, was to me was terribly lame. I think these last 5 minutes is really was hurt the episode. I just couldn’t believe it, after what to me had been a show with a lot of grace and subtlety (for the most part). A quick fanedit fix for the Balrog might be to simply have the leaf burn up and then cut to black with a short growl of the Balrog. More of a tease than a full reveal.

Overall, I do think the calamitous 6th episode could have had more consequences, Arondir and/or Bronwyn could have died (would be interesting to see how Theo would respond), Miriel perhaps could have died as well. I just felt like too major of an event for every major character to make it through.

Anyway, overall, I’m still very much enjoying the show, and really hoping the finale sticks the landing so we have a good feeling and anticipation for season 2.

Haha, same here! It’s funny. Admittedly, I have never read any of the books, and have really been a fan of Middle-Earth just through the movies. Since checking out M4’s Hobbit edit, though, I have been reading more about the lore and have had a growing interest in seeing more purists edits of LOTR as well. It is just an interesting idea to me. Are purist edits faithful or fruitless efforts? I didn’t realize how many things are different in the films compared to the books! Plated armor, which you see throughout the films, isn’t even described in the books. But I do think exploring that question of, “Could this adaptation be more faithful, but still hold up coherently as in this different medium?” makes for a fun experiment.

Since I haven’t read the books, I am not personally zealous when it comes to purism, but I think it would be fun to see if people will attempt to edit this series in a way that tries to stick as close as possible to what Tolkien wrote. I imagine it would be difficult considering the source material is rather sparse in comparison to LOTR or the Hobbit, but you could end up with an interesting narrative that is quite different than how it is laid out currently.

I’ve had similar thoughts about House of the Dragon as well. The source material is written as an in-universe history of the events of the story. In the book, the why and how of certain key events are ambiguous, and different sources have their own interpretations. I find that aspect really fascinating. In the show, though, the show decides to show these events, and in doing so, take away from that mystery. Of course I don’t think that is a bad thing at all. I think it is also great to see those events “unveiled” in a sense, even if it is different or contradictory to what is said in the books. Despite that, I can picture an edit of the series that chooses to keep those key events mysterious, and let the audience speculate on the truth. Seems like it would be a fun way to experience the show!

I’ve had similar thought regarding Star Wars edits, lore and headcanons, but I’ll save that for the Star Wars threads. I’m looking forward to talking about the finale with you guys!

Love to hear your perspective, Nev! Speaking of the characters’ ways of speaking, I recall reading an interview regarding Rings of Power that basically claimed that the writers attempted to write dialogue for each race in distinctive meters. To be honest I haven’t been able to tell if that translated into the final product. Have you guys noticed anything like that?