The Star Wars canon saga as only the OT? — Page 2

G&G-Fan said:

Y’know, it kinda just dawned on me, that calling Vader being Luke’s father universe shrinking is actually pretty ridiculous. Luke’s father was already Obi-Wan’s best friend and Vader was his apprentice. They were already close, it was already pretty shrinked. You’re literally just eliminating one single person by making Anakin be Vader, both of which were already close. This is absolutely nothing compared to C-3PO and R2 in the prequels and Chewbacca in ROTS. Like damn, apparently the universe is so much more vast because of one additional person.

Eh, Vader being Luke’s father is fine within ESB and a better version of ROTJ, but it’s what it helped inspire that led the franchise down a bad path. Which brings me to my next point:

And considering how much more complex both Vader and Luke’s characters are by having them be father and son respectively and their relationship and the depth it gave to both the trilogy and the saga, it’s by far absolutely worth it.

Within a better version of the trilogy, definitely. With the ROTJ we have now, where Vader’s redemption is incredibly rushed, the first act drags horribly, the cinematography looks incredibly bland, and we have the dreaded “Luke and Leia are twins” twist (which absolutely shrinks the universe)? Not really, no. Again, this is a “sometimes” attitude. When I see ROTJ '83 or ESB '80 again, my thoughts will probably change. For the better or worse? Who knows, that’s up to my interpretation.

My only six-film canon is the HAL9000 PT (with maybe the “sanding” edits sometimes) and Revisited ANH/ESB with DarthRush’s ROTJ (which fixes some of my problems with the movie). My only nine-film canon are those movies with Starlight, Rekindled (no Palpatine hints), and Resurgent (Rey Nobody edition).

Like StarkillerAG said, sometimes it feels nice to detach the OT/SW and ESB/SW along from its mediocre franchise. I single out TPM and TLJ from their respective trilogies, because I happen to really like them.

You say “blaze of glory,” I say “unearned and insincere.” From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed. If we take the PT into account, it’s essentially a school shooter getting rewarded for one good deed.

Again, the idea of Death of the Author (in the actual sense, not the “your fave is problematic” sense) plays in my interpretation here. The work should speak for itself, not the author rationalizing shit in interviews. Hell, look at what Truce of Bakura said about how Leia would find redeemed Anakin.

“Wait.” He did not move away from the wall. If anything, he seemed to shrink in size and proximity. “I am no longer the man that you feared. Can you not see me as a stranger, not an old enemy?”
She’d lived too long with the fear of Darth Vader. “You can’t restore Alderaan. You can’t bring back the people you murdered, or comfort their widows and orphans. You can’t undo what you did to the Alliance.” Old pain jabbed her like a fresh wound.
“I strengthened the Alliance, although that was not my intent.” He extended a glimmering arm. The mellow voice sounded wrong. The mild, naked face didn’t look as if it’d hidden for decades behind a black breath mask. “Leia, things are changing. I may never be able to return to you.”
She glanced away. Maybe she couldn’t harm him with her blaster, but it would feel good in her hands. If she stretched, she could almost reach it. “Good.”
“There is no justifying … my actions. Yet your brother saved me from darkness. You must believe me.”
“I heard Luke.” She crossed her arms and clenched her hands around her elbows. “But I’m not Luke. Or your teacher. Or your confessor. I’m only your daughter by a cruel trick of fate.”

I know she changes her mind later in the book, but that’s still how I view Vader as ROTJ presents him. Maybe Luke buys his redemption, but I see it as entirely unearned and rushed. The movie gives him one legitimately contemplative scene (the landing platform exchange) and then the throne room stuff is him just resigned to his fate of dying evil. The decision to save his son is a first step towards redemption and possible forgiveness, not the whole process.

I’d rather have Vader slowly redeem himself, go through hiccups in shaking his thought processes he’s had for decades, before finally joining the side of good. A purely visual confrontation of his harm would also be nice, something like this:

But we don’t get that. Instead, we have a rushed redemption for a character who (as depicted) never deserved it.

Maybe I’ll feel more charitable to ROTJ again, I don’t know. I currently find it a deeply dissatisfying end to the OT and to the six-film interpretation of the series.

I feel like Zuko’s not a great comparison to Darth Vader. Zuko’s arc relies on him joining the protagonists, his redemption isn’t the end of his story. This isn’t the case for Vader, and I don’t think it should’ve been either.

SparkySywer said:

I feel like Zuko’s not a great comparison to Darth Vader. Zuko’s arc relies on him joining the protagonists, his redemption isn’t the end of his story. This isn’t the case for Vader, and I don’t think it should’ve been either.

Yeah, Vader isn’t the sort of character where you could have him spending time with the heroes and becoming part of the group and earning their trust. That wouldn’t work with him. It’s how I might’ve redeemed Kylo Ren, but not Darth Vader. He was a shell of a man. His only option to atone was to die.

If Anakin had survived and come back with Luke, he would still have to be tried for his crimes.

SparkySywer said:

I feel like Zuko’s not a great comparison to Darth Vader. Zuko’s arc relies on him joining the protagonists, his redemption isn’t the end of his story. This isn’t the case for Vader, and I don’t think it should’ve been either.

Yeah, that’s a different and much more enjoyable kind of story for me. Hell, my other example of Odo is a “good guy” who is wrestling with his past as a collaborator in a fascist regime/struggles with relating to his totalitarian species. IDW Megatron is kind of comparable to Vader, in that redemption was more of a spur of the moment decision/reflected a “nobility within,” but the series still made him face the gravity of what he had done. He even worked to dismantle some of the horrors he created - wiping out the Decepticon Justice Division, for instance.

“Redemption equals death”/redemption as the end point of a journey has never stood right with me. I find actively trying to face or even ameliorate one’s misdeeds is much more satisfying and legitimate. It’s why I still feel that ROTJ should have been two movies to properly allow Vader to embrace the light and earn forgiveness from people who aren’t Luke.

Maybe. I feel like it’s beyond the scope of Vader as a character though. His redemption isn’t just the end of his character because he should die for what he did, but because he’s just no longer an interesting character once that’s done.

It might be interesting to see Anakin have to atone or pay for what he did somehow in the afterlife, but I think he’s better off dead in RotJ.

Maybe G&G’s on to something, and the point of Vader’s redemption isn’t so much that he’s becoming a good guy, but that the small glimmer of good that’s in him (and by extension, in everybody) is showing through. By showing Vader actually put in the work to earn forgiveness would make an arc of him becoming good more satisfying, but would add a ton of unnecessary complexity to the theme Vader’s redemption is in service of.

You know, that interpretation is entirely legitimate and can work in a story. Like, look at the ending of Better Call Saul, when Jimmy finally confesses to all of his awfulness in court. He gets to spend the rest of his days in prison, but he’s free from his life of lies and Kim is open to him again. The whole arc of Jimmy living as Gene is a good example of making a character suffer before they truly gain a shot at redemption. I don’t really think it’s communicated that well in the OT.

I just don’t find that it works in ROTJ and especially not in the context of the PT. Luke may forgive him, but can the people watching even think about forgiving him? This is guy who led a school shooting, FFS. Nobody is thinking about how one can find the good in Dylan, Erik, or the author of Richard McBeef. That’s a big root of my problem and why I always support fanedits that cut that one scene out. I despise that Kenobi made it Reva’s origin.

Also, Vader can start his redemption arc earlier. Why doesn’t he try to disassemble the empire from within, anonymously send secrets to the alliance (without them knowing it’s him - maybe Piett is a red herring)? It could be narratively satisfying when Luke learns that Vader is the one that gave up imperial secrets, but saddened to learn that Vader did so for dark side reasons.

Vader the secret informant could have dramatic stakes too, as Palpatine could have fed him false information for Endor and Luke could question Vader’s intentions again. It’s through the duel that Luke tries to pull out that call to the light (as he does in the movie), but it becomes more pained for Vader. It’d contextualize Vader killing Palpatine as the culmination of a much longer path in Vader’s life, the final step needed to complete that redemption. Instead of what we got, where it comes off more “rushed.”

Again, my feelings could change on this. They have before and they’ll probably do so again. IDK, I feel like the PT makes me want to see Luke leave Vader to die alone in the throne room and that this franchise has been a deeply mediocre one since 1983. If Vader’s redemption works for you, that’s totally fine. It just doesn’t work for me.

G&G-Fan said:

Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.

From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.

That’s kinda exactly what it is.

The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.

His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.

You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.

Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."

There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.

That’s all well and good, but what about Luke’s role? Luke sacrificed himself because the Empire could sense his presence (which is not a great endorsement for future Jedi but still a noble act) but then made his entire quest an attempt to achieve Vader’s bedside conversion. He literally sat idle while shiploads of innocent beings were being annihilated by the Death Star. Even at the last moment, with Vader defeated, Luke threw his weapon aside and declared his own enlightenment - again while a war continued to rage outside. So yeah, hooray for Vader saving his own flesh and blood at the last moment (is that really so unselfish?) but how is any of this remotely helpful to the rebel cause or even ethically sound? The fact that Vader finally caved and saved his own son, after the Emperor had basically written him off anyway (“take your father’s place at my side”), doesn’t strike me as particularly noble…or even helpful given Luke’s complete obliviousness to anything beyond his and Vader’s religious aspirations.

Shopping Maul said:

G&G-Fan said:

Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.

From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.

That’s kinda exactly what it is.

The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.

His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.

You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.

Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."

There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.

That’s all well and good, but what about Luke’s role? Luke sacrificed himself because the Empire could sense his presence (which is not a great endorsement for future Jedi but still a noble act) but then made his entire quest an attempt to achieve Vader’s bedside conversion. He literally sat idle while shiploads of innocent beings were being annihilated by the Death Star. Even at the last moment, with Vader defeated, Luke threw his weapon aside and declared his own enlightenment - again while a war continued to rage outside. So yeah, hooray for Vader saving his own flesh and blood at the last moment (is that really so unselfish?) but how is any of this remotely helpful to the rebel cause or even ethically sound? The fact that Vader finally caved and saved his own son, after the Emperor had basically written him off anyway (“take your father’s place at my side”), doesn’t strike me as particularly noble…or even helpful given Luke’s complete obliviousness to anything beyond his and Vader’s religious aspirations.

Well, what else was Luke going to do? I don’t want to defend Luke’s actions, but what use would he have been in the battle? He hasn’t been an active duty fighter pilot for some time and risks being shot by a random TIE pilot (of which there were dozens, if not hundreds). On the ground, what can he do beyond slicing down a few stormtroopers and maybe pulling the shield bunker doors open, which are all things the strike team and Ewoks could do?

Luke’s most useful place is on the Death Star, dealing with Vader and the Emperor. Also, if one wants to add the Legends EU idea of “battle meditation” into the mix, Luke’s actions led to the Emperor’s death. The Emperor’s death, through the force, cratered the morale and resolve of the Imperials at Endor. Luke did have an important role within the battle, even though he wasn’t directly involved in the fighting.

BedeHistory731 said:

Shopping Maul said:

G&G-Fan said:

Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.

From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.

That’s kinda exactly what it is.

The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.

His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.

You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.

Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."

There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.

That’s all well and good, but what about Luke’s role? Luke sacrificed himself because the Empire could sense his presence (which is not a great endorsement for future Jedi but still a noble act) but then made his entire quest an attempt to achieve Vader’s bedside conversion. He literally sat idle while shiploads of innocent beings were being annihilated by the Death Star. Even at the last moment, with Vader defeated, Luke threw his weapon aside and declared his own enlightenment - again while a war continued to rage outside. So yeah, hooray for Vader saving his own flesh and blood at the last moment (is that really so unselfish?) but how is any of this remotely helpful to the rebel cause or even ethically sound? The fact that Vader finally caved and saved his own son, after the Emperor had basically written him off anyway (“take your father’s place at my side”), doesn’t strike me as particularly noble…or even helpful given Luke’s complete obliviousness to anything beyond his and Vader’s religious aspirations.

Well, what else was Luke going to do? I don’t want to defend Luke’s actions, but what use would he have been in the battle? He hasn’t been an active duty fighter pilot for some time and risks being shot by a random TIE pilot (of which there were dozens, if not hundreds). On the ground, what can he do beyond slicing down a few stormtroopers and maybe pulling the shield bunker doors open, which are all things the strike team and Ewoks could do?

Luke’s most useful place is on the Death Star, dealing with Vader and the Emperor. Also, if one wants to add the Legends EU idea of “battle meditation” into the mix, Luke’s actions led to the Emperor’s death. The Emperor’s death, through the force, cratered the morale and resolve of the Imperials at Endor. Luke did have an important role within the battle, even though he wasn’t directly involved in the fighting.

Well the EU thing is just a post-hoc rationalisation to kind of answer what I’m illustrating. TESB sets Luke up as the ‘only hope’ (and Star Wars was retroactively renamed ‘A New Hope’ with this in mind) and yet Luke does nothing to earn this narrative ranking in RoTJ. The death of Palpatine is merely a by-product of Luke’s desire to save Vader. And heck, if the whole thing had taken a few minutes longer then all three of them would’ve been blown up anyway and the galaxy would never again have to worry about space gurus who have a very selective moral sense when it comes to violence, and also turn irreversibly evil when they lose their temper.

I think the actual story, in essence at least, is a good one. I just wish that Luke had gone with the expressed intention of defeating Palpatine with Vader’s redemption as the by-product of Luke’s actions (not the other way around). I also wish Palpatine had actually used legitimate manipulation to sway Luke (ie use guile to win Luke’s empathy and convince him to join the Empire to help heal the fractured galaxy and save his friends in the bargain. The whole ‘get mad and you’ll turn evil’ thing is stupid, as was the notion that Luke would join the Emperor just because he was angry).

G&G-Fan said:

The only way I see a plotline of Vader trying to destroy the Empire from within working is if he’s doing it for selfish Sithy reasons, wanting to take Palpatine’s place and continue the whole “rule the galaxy as father and son” thing. Vader is not the kind of person to admit that he’s wrong, he’s the type to double down based on his emotions. Because he can’t let go of anything. Through the whole movie he keeps avoiding the truth and refusing to admit to his feelings. “If that is your destiny.” “There is no conflict.” “If you do not fight, then you will meet your destiny.”

Stretch that out to cover a whole movie instead of one scene, with Luke questioning him more and more. Vader’s realization in the middle of an ROTJ equivalent is that “I did the right thing for the wrong reasons, maybe Luke has a point,” after Luke voluntarily gets captured and stresses the good in Vader. He would have changed for the better, but still think it’s too late for himself to fundamentally change. That is until he’s presented with Palpatine killing his son, when he realizes that he can truly do something good for the right reasons (saving his son and killing his master directly).

I hate to bring up another comparison, but Frieza/Cell Saga Vegeta is a close example of this kind of arc. He may be trying to help the heroes, but he’s still doing so out of awful reasons/despite the badgering of his allies. The first time he does the right thing for the right reasons is to shoot at Cell so that Gohan can overpower him. Like Vader, he does so because this man tried to kill his son (well, Cell actually succeeded for a few minutes).

That kind of arc works and produces a satisfying redemption. However, it sadly wasn’t what Lucas wanted to tell and the saga’s story suffers as a result. But hey, I buy Vader’s redemption infinitely more than I buy something like Snape’s redemption.

That kind of arc works and produces a satisfying redemption. However, it sadly wasn’t what Lucas wanted to tell and the saga’s story suffers as a result. But hey, I buy Vader’s redemption infinitely more than I buy something like Snape’s redemption.

Really? What is it about Snape’s redemption you find unconvincing (bearing in mind I’m not the biggest Harry Potter connoisseur in the world, but I do like the series)?

Shopping Maul said:

That kind of arc works and produces a satisfying redemption. However, it sadly wasn’t what Lucas wanted to tell and the saga’s story suffers as a result. But hey, I buy Vader’s redemption infinitely more than I buy something like Snape’s redemption.

Really? What is it about Snape’s redemption you find unconvincing (bearing in mind I’m not the biggest Harry Potter connoisseur in the world, but I do like the series)?

If it had been Neville as the chosen one, Severus would’ve had no reason to become Albus’ spy. That and Snape loves tormenting children (especially Neville) and his backstory is vaguely incel-ish. The man takes out his psychological issues on kids and sees no reason to ever stop. Him being Albus’ spy doesn’t redeem him enough, certainly not enough for Harry to partially name his kid after him.

I love that we can now pick this book and movie series apart without judgement. Indeed, they were always shit!

I don’t know there are different Star Wars universes for me at least. There is the 77 film, radio play, Daley and Foster novels and original marvel comics and newspaper strips from Manning. Pre Empire. A vast universe which could unfold and be anything of serialized adventure. And there is the OT universe pre prequel and EU.

Then there is the Lucas Saga verse where the originals never happened, and only 1-6 and Filoni Clone Wars is valid. The EU is fanfiction and only exists to be a part of the licensing arm of Lucasfilm. Purely for profit. None of it is canon.

Then there is the Disney Star Wars universe which includes the Rey Palpatine Saga, and everything else that has happened under their banner. Which includes the revisioned Lucas Saga + Filoni/Favreau, but not George Lucas sequels which never got beyond a treatment and which they didn’t waste further time or money developing.

rocknroll41 said:

Nice to see other people finally becoming sw77 purists like me!

That said, I was watching ESB just yesterday for the first time in awhile and I can at least appreciate how well it’s made from a technical standpoint.

As others here have said, it works very well on its own, but led to serious issues in the long run with the force, saber fights, familial themes, etc.

“Franchise original sin” really is a bitch, isn’t it?

BedeHistory731 said:

rocknroll41 said:

Nice to see other people finally becoming sw77 purists like me!

That said, I was watching ESB just yesterday for the first time in awhile and I can at least appreciate how well it’s made from a technical standpoint.

As others here have said, it works very well on its own, but led to serious issues in the long run with the force, saber fights, familial themes, etc.

“Franchise original sin” really is a bitch, isn’t it?

You know, it’s a funny thing. Nearly every Star Wars fan I’ve met believes there was some “line” that Star Wars crossed at some point that marks when the franchise jumped the shark. But no one ever agrees on when that “line” was crossed. Was it 1980, 1983, 1997, 1999, 2015, 2017, etc.