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Why Rogue One doesn't work well as a prequel to Star Wars — Page 4

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4throck said:

Vader’s redemption starts on ANH when he senses Obi-Wan. Something changes, and he adopts a more restrained fighting style after that point. But before that, he’s quite violent, even on ANH. So the RO scene is perfectly in character I think - we are seeing the prequel Vader.

I don’t see how sensing Obi-Wan, a man he hates, would cause him to go soft or question himself.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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There’s no detailed explanation, but you can see it happening on screen in this classic scene. Vader voices his thoughts aloud and becomes quite calm for a few moments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKF9g_BKmXU

Perfectly fine if you interpret it another way - these movies are not as simple as they appear and multiple interpretations are possible!

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yotsuya said:

The first time we see Jedi in slasher mode is in Return of the Jedi. Then again in The Phantom Menace.

I wouldn’t really call that slasher

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

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Luke is very Vader like when he heads into Jabba’s but that is deliberate. You see him wearing all black. He force chokes a Gamorrean guard. He is there to get revenge on Jabba for his treatment of Han Solo and to free his friend. He at first tried to bargain with Jabba but Luke was prepared to carry out murder if necessary.

He smuggled in his lightsaber for that very purpose. I don’t get this idea that Luke was all good and lightness and pure. Vader wouldn’t have sensed the dark side within Luke and tempted him to cross over in Empire if Luke was incorruptible. If Luke wasn’t so like Anakin.

As for Rogue One it is very uneven and the fan service moments seem a bit forced. But it isn’t all that bad for a movie you might catch on cable television. I remember though when Star Wars was a big event and it meant something and it wasn’t straight to tv or the bargain bin.

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I remember though when Star Wars was a big event and it meant something and it wasn’t straight to tv or the bargain bin.

Yeah. It was really something once.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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JadedSkywalker said:

Luke is very Vader like when he heads into Jabba’s but that is deliberate. You see him wearing all black. He force chokes a Gamorrean guard. He is there to get revenge on Jabba for his treatment of Han Solo and to free his friend. He at first tried to bargain with Jabba but Luke was prepared to carry out murder if necessary.

Well that’s the whole point, you’re not sure if he will turn in the finale. It’s a character moment, like in a real movie.

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thebluefrog said:

Prequels barely work in general.

Can people really come up with any prequels outside of SW that enhance the original?

The problem with most prequels, and generally any instance where a writer is tasked with expanding on details that were off screen previously (and ESPECIALLY in instances where the writer is different than in the original story), is that writers hate being predictable, even when being more predictable would benefit the integrity of previous stories, so they have a strong tendency to avoid directly depicting what is alluded to or implied in the original story and instead opt for an unintuitive alternate sequence of events that leads to the same place (though not always perfectly, which can causes inconsistencies).

The result is that prequels and expanded backstories are rarely ever as satisfying as the original implications were. Writers just aren’t willing to set aside their desire to go against the expectations of the audience.

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I don’t find the unpredictability be true, at least in terms of the Star Wars prequels. This implies that the writer considered the implied contours of the prequel story based off of the originals and then intentionally went in a surprising direction. However, most of my issues with the prequels are that they are far too predictable.

Is Yoda the most powerful Jedi in the OT? Better make him the leader of the entire Jedi Order in the prequels. And give him a lightsaber, because Jedi have lightsabers. And make all the Jedi wear desert cloaks all the time, because that’s what Obi-wan wore on Tatooine.

Are the Clone Wars the major threat in the PT? Better make it a single war and make Palpatine be behind it because he’s the villain. And did you think that the clones would be the bad guys? Ha, no they’re actually good! Until they are bad, just as we all assumed, but because of computer chips or some contrived bullshit.

Did Anakin become more monstrous over the course of the films as he gradually lost his humanity to wounds and emotional scars? Oh he lost an arm once, something that is never mentioned again, and then fell in lava and was put in the monster suit twenty minutes later.

Was Boba Fett cool? Uh yeah, cool enough to be the basis for all the clones. And we get to see him as a kid, isn’t that great?!

And in most cases, the OT implies a far more interesting history than even exists in the prequels.

Was Anakin turned to the dark side because of the evils of the Clone Wars? Nah, he had other issues.

Did Owen know and care about Anakin’s life? Sure doesn’t look like it.

Did Palpatine take power in some Machiavellian plot to trick the Senate? No, they were just dumb as rocks.

Was Obi-wan a reckless crusading idealist in the Jedi Order who flew too close to the sun? Dude doesn’t even have a tan.

Did Anakin speak hopefully of the future life of his child and his wish for him to become a Jedi? Hah, we ain’t got time for that.

Did Owen and Beru begin their lives on a different planet but then move to Tatooine to get away from the Empire? That would have made sense, but no, they’re still hanging out in the same place that Anakin left them, still with the same names.

Was Anakin the best starpilot in the galaxy? No, but he was pretty good at space Nascar as a kid, I’m sure that’s just as interesting.

Where did C-3PO come from? Well I’m glad you never asked but here’s the answer…

…And these are just the character traits referenced in the OT! Imagine what someone could do with an entire trilogy of new events and characters. Instead we get a first movie with the comedic key of Jar Jar Binks and who was practically written out of the sequel, and a second movie with a mystery plot that got written out of its sequel, then a third movie which hinges for its tragedy on clones with previously unknown computer chips in their brains and an entire Senate and Jedi Order whose brains could have really used the processing power.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

I don’t find the unpredictability be true, at least in terms of the Star Wars prequels. This implies that the writer considered the implied contours of the prequel story based off of the originals and then intentionally went in a surprising direction. However, most of my issues with the prequels are that they are far too predictable.

Is Yoda the most powerful Jedi in the OT? Better make him the leader of the entire Jedi Order in the prequels. And give him a lightsaber, because Jedi have lightsabers. And make all the Jedi wear desert cloaks all the time, because that’s what Obi-wan wore on Tatooine.

Are the Clone Wars the major threat in the PT? Better make it a single war and make Palpatine be behind it because he’s the villain. And did you think that the clones would be the bad guys? Ha, no they’re actually good! Until they are bad, just as we all assumed, but because of computer chips or some contrived bullshit.

Did Anakin become more monstrous over the course of the films as he gradually lost his humanity to wounds and emotional scars? Oh he lost an arm once, something that is never mentioned again, and then fell in lava and was put in the monster suit twenty minutes later.

Was Boba Fett cool? Uh yeah, cool enough to be the basis for all the clones. And we get to see him as a kid, isn’t that great?!

And in most cases, the OT implies a far more interesting history than even exists in the prequels.

Was Anakin turned to the dark side because of the evils of the Clone Wars? Nah, he had other issues.

Did Owen know and care about Anakin’s life? Sure doesn’t look like it.

Did Palpatine take power in some Machiavellian plot to trick the Senate? No, they were just dumb as rocks.

Was Obi-wan a reckless crusading idealist in the Jedi Order who flew too close to the sun? Dude doesn’t even have a tan.

Did Anakin speak hopefully of the future life of his child and his wish for him to become a Jedi? Hah, we ain’t got time for that.

Did Owen and Beru begin their lives on a different planet but then move to Tatooine to get away from the Empire? That would have made sense, but no, they’re still hanging out in the same place that Anakin left them, still with the same names.

Was Anakin the best starpilot in the galaxy? No, but he was pretty good at space Nascar as a kid, I’m sure that’s just as interesting.

Where did C-3PO come from? Well I’m glad you never asked but here’s the answer…

…And these are just the character traits referenced in the OT! Imagine what someone could do with an entire trilogy of new events and characters. Instead we get a first movie with the comedic key of Jar Jar Binks and who was practically written out of the sequel, and a second movie with a mystery plot that got written out of its sequel, then a third movie which hinges for its tragedy on clones with previously unknown computer chips in their brains and an entire Senate and Jedi Order whose brains could have really used the processing power.

Well, that is one way to look at it. I think there are some mild inconsistencies. Most of the things you list aren’t things I get from the OT at all. So I see no issue with where the PT went with them.

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 (Edited)

Some of them may be more implied or more Neverar’s interpretations, but half of them are outright said in the OT. Obi-Wan being a reckless crusading idealist, Anakin speaking hopefully of his child becoming a Jedi, Anakin being the best star pilot in the galaxy, I don’t know how to miss that from the OT.

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

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I think a more accurate way to say it is that writers of prequels really don’t like to be beholden to established narrative beats. Is the new stuff they come up with also predictable? Sure, oftentimes it is, but I think the writers at least feel like they are doing something new when they deviate and twist background details in unintuitive ways. Like, the prequels could have easily just not had the droids or Boba Fett at all, leaving them instead to the intuitive, straightforward origins we can infer from the OT. Their entire prequel backstory is basically one big “I bet you didn’t expect THAT to be where they came from!” contrivance.

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I noticed something else that I didn’t mention in my original post. How did Vader track the Tantive IV through hyperspace when hyperspace tracking wasn’t possible yet? And as they’re escaping, Captain Antilles gives the order to prepare the escape pods, as though he knows they won’t be able to get away.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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“Alert all commands, calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory.”

From Empire. I don’t think R1 is meant to take place immediately before the original film. I think at least several hours, but more like a couple days, take place between the films. I see no big issue.

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Could have been a tracker like on the Millennium Falcon. But that would mean there was an Imperial Spy on the Tantive IV.

I mean the radio play was canon once and the Devastator followed Leia’s ship through Hyperspace. And that was decades before Last Jedi.

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I feel that any prequel is always intended to be watched in release order; ie the very fact that it is a prequel means that it should be watched with the knowledge of the film that comes after it.

Chronological order ruins the viewing experience, at least for a first-time viewer (people who have seen all films can choose any order).

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Ice said:

I feel that any prequel is always intended to be watched in release order; ie the very fact that it is a prequel means that it should be watched with the knowledge of the film that comes after it.

Chronological order ruins the viewing experience, at least for a first-time viewer (people who have seen all films can choose any order).

I joke, but this his would not be an issues if everyone had an option to watch the unaltered theatrical cuts. 😃
 

the image is not mine: https://twitter.com/BrandonMutala/status/1471499989448753161

“The other Sequels were the result of an over-anxious press. The original intention was to make three [films], and that was really the end of it. It was not until 10 years after the first [film] that I thought of doing a back story.” - George Lucas, speaking at the Premiere of ROTS in 2005

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Darth Retcon said:

Ice said:

I feel that any prequel is always intended to be watched in release order; ie the very fact that it is a prequel means that it should be watched with the knowledge of the film that comes after it.

Chronological order ruins the viewing experience, at least for a first-time viewer (people who have seen all films can choose any order).

I joke, but this his would not be an issues if everyone had an option to watch the unaltered theatrical cuts. 😃
 

the image is not mine: https://twitter.com/BrandonMutala/status/1471499989448753161

That’s really the main intended purpose of Machete Order. To preserve the Vader twist while allowing a new viewer to recognize who the heck that young ghost guy is in RotJ.

It might be fun to do fan edits of AotC and RotS that account for Machete Order. It’s grown on me as a way of watching the films.

As for Rogue One, it can really be watched whenever, as long as the person has at least seen ANH beforehand. I made the mistake of showing Rogue One first to someone, and they were very confused about Darth Vader.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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Servii said:

Darth Retcon said:

Ice said:

I feel that any prequel is always intended to be watched in release order; ie the very fact that it is a prequel means that it should be watched with the knowledge of the film that comes after it.

Chronological order ruins the viewing experience, at least for a first-time viewer (people who have seen all films can choose any order).

I joke, but this his would not be an issues if everyone had an option to watch the unaltered theatrical cuts. 😃
 

the image is not mine: https://twitter.com/BrandonMutala/status/1471499989448753161

It might be fun to do fan edits of AotC and RotS that account for Machete Order. It’s grown on me as a way of watching the films.

Put me down for that kind of edit, which could include a framing device of Luke meditating and seeing the story from Vader and Kenobi’s perspectives. Voice AI for all three, along with existing lines, would work wonders here.

It also makes it line up with TLJ, which is a plus for me.

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I did something like that when I was, like, 15 or 16 or however old I was. This was before I was on OT.com. I did more to try and make TPM look like a spinoff (Rogue One wasn’t even out yet lol) than to make AotC and RotS fit in more with Machete Order, though.

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

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 (Edited)

Servii said:

Darth Retcon said:

Ice said:

I feel that any prequel is always intended to be watched in release order; ie the very fact that it is a prequel means that it should be watched with the knowledge of the film that comes after it.

Chronological order ruins the viewing experience, at least for a first-time viewer (people who have seen all films can choose any order).

I joke, but this his would not be an issues if everyone had an option to watch the unaltered theatrical cuts. 😃
 

the image is not mine: https://twitter.com/BrandonMutala/status/1471499989448753161

That’s really the main intended purpose of Machete Order. To preserve the Vader twist while allowing a new viewer to recognize who the heck that young ghost guy is in RotJ.

It might be fun to do fan edits of AotC and RotS that account for Machete Order. It’s grown on me as a way of watching the films.

As for Rogue One, it can really be watched whenever, as long as the person has at least seen ANH beforehand. I made the mistake of showing Rogue One first to someone, and they were very confused about Darth Vader.

Sometimes I completely forget the “Machete Order” exists because of George’s unnecessary and careless meddling with his “Special Editions”:

The Star Wars Saga: Introducing Machete Order, in 2011

Star Wars Machete Order: Update and FAQ, in 2015

Both pieces are by the creator of the “Machete Order”: Rod Hilton.

I wonder if he is a member on here given his love for the OT films, the Despecialized Editions, and the 4K fan projects he mentions in his articles above.

I do like he updated them to include a “Where Do Episode VII and Rogue One fit?” section too.

The Secret History of Star Wars | Star Wars Visual Comparisons | George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time-Travelling Revisionist