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What's your take on Emperor Palpatine being brought back for The Rise of Skywalker? — Page 6

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I’m opposed to fanedits which set up Palpatine in TFA and TLJ mostly because I don’t like what’s done with Palpatine and his return in TRoS and don’t want to taint TFA and TLJ with it. But if you want to have Palpatine return, you kind of have to.

I’m kind of preaching to the choir here, and also preaching to the wall behind the choir, but the reason the Luke’s father twist works, and similar twists like Bruce Willis being dead the whole time, is not because they come out of nowhere like TestingOutTheTest says. It’s because they don’t come out of nowhere. Because you could have seen them coming, and honestly, I think part of the enjoyment comes from knowing that you should have seen it coming.

A good twist works when there’s lots of clues, or ideas that reinforce the twist before the twist actually happens. Nothing too blatant to spoil it, but enough that when it’s revealed you look back and think “Oh, shit, that’s why XYZ was doing ABC!” That’s why Bruce Willis never talks to anybody. That’s why Obi-Wan and Yoda act kinda goofy when talking about Luke’s dad. That’s why Dae-Su was being held prisoner. Although many movie twists are less straightforward than that.

Even when previous media was made without the twist in mind, good twists can be based in the facts of the previous media. You can just say “Oh they were lying” when a twist retcons something someone said, but it’s incredibly easy to read the Vader twist into Alec Guinness’s acting in the Ben’s Hut scene.

This is all the long way to say that twists only work in the story if they’re well rooted in the entire story.

The Palpatine twist comes out of nowhere, and it completely redirects the plot. None of the plot of TRoS is really a continuation of TLJ at all, save for a few almost irrelevant references that feel pasted in just to specifically deflect this criticism (Hux being a spy is the best example). Fanedits that retroactively put Palpatine back into TFA and TLJ make it less jarring by at least putting some connections to TRoS in them.

Lucasfilm themselves couldn’t do that because the idea of Palpatine even being there wasn’t decided until 10 months before TRoS was completed, let alone while TFA or TLJ were even being worked on. But they should have at least rooted Palpatine’s return better in TFA or TLJ. Or if they figured they couldn’t (and this is probably the case because these people are pretty experienced film makers), the concept probably should have been put in the “Cool idea, doesn’t work” bin.

If Palpatine wasn’t in the trailers and we first heard of him in the opening crawl, it may have been more shocking. But shock isn’t a very long-lasting emotion for a movie to portray. It would just worsen the problem. You’d get an admittedly cool moment of shock for one second, and then it would feel a lot more out of nowhere without the 8-month leadup knowing Palpatine was going to be in this movie.

Maybe this is a weird thing to say after wasting 524 words about how Palpatine’s return functions as a twist, but Palpatine’s return really isn’t a twist, I feel like it’s more of a premise. That’s why it feels like TRoS is an Episode 10 without an Episode 9. It feels like this is another story with Rey and Finn and the crew after their main story has been finished. Except their main story hasn’t been finished and never will be.

Hell, I wonder if a fanedit could make it an actual Episode 10, and just say that Episode 9 doesn’t exist. Like how for a while Episodes 1-3 didn’t exist. They skipped 9. It’s like the story ends in medias res, which, sure, is ridiculously unsatisfying and not as cool as starting a story in medias res, but whatever. Maybe it would sell TLJ better as a soft ending.

Anakin Starkiller said:

He finds the wreckage of the Second Death Star, and finds Palpatine desperately clinging to life with dark side magic, and maybe a little help from life support maintained by freak show cultists.

I do really like your idea Sparky, but not quite enough for me to look past Palpatine’s importance to the Saga. If it were any other Sith lord, this would be a perfect end, but not him. He’s our big bad.

That’s kind of why I like the idea. He’s our big bad, and look what he’s been reduced to. Don’t do dark side, kids.

To praise TRoS for a moment, that’s actually why I also really like his character design in TRoS. He’s a corpse who’s spent more time hanging from a life support system than ruling the galaxy. He’s spent about the same amount of time hanging around as he spent in power, there are 35 years between TPM and RotJ, and 31 years between RotJ and TRoS.

Although I think it’s self-explanatory that the storytelling does not at all match up with this. I may think it’s self-explanatory, but for obvious reasons I might have to explain myself anyway: In this movie, Palpatine is actually the villain, who is capable of destroying planets and is hours away from galactic domination. He’s so powerful that he makes the First Order entirely irrelevant overnight. He’s not really weak or pathetic in this movie, which is what I dug in his character design.

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

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act on instinct said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

act on instinct said:

Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.

Except inferences are there to clog up plot holes so the story would make sense. Why do you think J.J. had Kylo Ren be injured in TFA?

And “I don’t like sand” DOES make sense. He’s using it as a comparison to describe how nice and beautiful Naboo and Padmé are.

Secondly, Anakin grew up with an organization that kept telling him to repress his feelings and attachments, so of course “I don’t like sand” was gonna sound so awkward and lifeless. It reinforces how awful the old Jedi Order is.

You didn’t read what I said at all. My point was that technical connections don’t absolve poor execution. You can cook a chicken without burning it and still make a bland meal.

How are they poorly-executed, exactly? “I don’t like sand” was executed well, it reinforced how bad the old Jedi are and was a natural progression of Anakin growing up with it holding him back emotionally.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Way for that point to go over your head. I’m saying that set-up doesn’t matter. AT ALL. The lack of a set-up makes the actual reveal more surprising and impactful (+ Palpatine being established as a mastermind and having an interest in immortality and willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy). Palps’ return is SUPPOSED to be a surprise.

Set-up matters depending on context. Would Avengers: Infinity Work have worked so well if the Infinity Stones or Thanos hadn’t been established in prior movies?

TROS was meant to be a climax for both the sequel trilogy and the overall Skywalker saga. It has over 40 years of established lore and audience appeal behind it. It should have been a satisfying payoff for the storylines set in motion by TFA and TLJ, but instead it

SparkySywer has a really good point on how the Darth Vader twist works because in retrospective it makes sense. When you rewatch ESB one begins to notice the nuances and clues that originally flew over one’s head. But in the sequel trilogy, looking back at TFA and TLJ, you don’t find many elements that tease or contextualise Palpatine’s return. Their storylines, particularly TLJ’s, don’t seem to be building towards this particular premise. A very diferent situation would have happened if TLJ or both TFA/TLJ had been made with Palps’s comeback in mind.

I perfectly understood as to what was going on. You just didn’t pay attention to the movie.

No need to speak for me. I’m an avid fan, who has rewatched the movies dozens of times, and of course keeping up with the story was not a big issue for me, after all the script is not very nuanced. I never said the first series of scenes were incomprehensible or that they didn’t have relevance to the plot. But the movie has pacing issues. I can follow the story and its details yet at the same time feel overwhelmed as a viewer because way too much is happening in a short span of runtime.

Even if each scene fulfills its objective it leaves a sensation of being really short; before the audience can let the mood sink in, the movie frantically cuts to another sequence, contributing to it feeling overstuffed (of course, it being the last film, there are a lot of dangling threads to resolve, but they easily could have added an extra 20 minutes to devote enough time to all of them). Again, comparing it to TFA and TLJ. We don’t get a long, extended sequence at the beginning like the First Order’s assault on Jakku. Even the space battle over D’Qar, being an action prologue, has a well-developed setting and stakes, and sets the mood for the rest of the film. Instead the first scene of TROS lasts less than a minute (somewhere around ten if you consider the Mustafar and Exegol scenees a single sequence). And then in the span of the following 15 minutes we have another two action moments.

I do believe, though, that the second half of TROS does improve in regards to pacing.

I’ll concede to you that the transmission itself is not really important, which is why I don’t understand what was the point of having it in the first place. The time they deciphered the intel should have been the moment where anyone (save for Kylo) first heard of Palpatine’s comeback instead of muddying the waters with an offscreen broadcast.

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Cadavra said:

By your logic, how Rey beat Kylo Ren and why Holdo doesn’t tell Poe her plan need a logical basis.

First, Rey beating Kylo DID get a logical basis shown in the film itself pretty clearly. The movie went out of its way to (1) establish via her staff that Rey has experience with melee weapons, (2) demonstrate the power of Chewie’s bowcaster, (3) show Kylo getting shot with the bowcaster, (4) linger on Kylo’s wound before the duel, and (5) show Rey firmly on defense until she lets the Force in. This aspect of TFA, at least, is actually a master class in showing rather than telling; all the pieces are patiently doled out IN THE MOVIE ITSELF. I don’t think any of the TROS elements I’m criticizing come anywhere near that close.

This logic applies to how Palpatine survived in RotJ. He wants to transfer his spirit into and possess Rey/Kylo Ren. He explicitly confirms to Ren he’s died before, further reinforced by him visibly exploding in RotJ. He can create bodies from scratch like Snoke, and his current body is identical to his original. Hence, one can infer he transferred his spirit to his clone body after RotJ.

Second, I do think Holdo not telling Poe the plan was poorly handled in TLJ, as well, and there should have been a real explanation for why she didn’t. Did you assume that I don’t think that?

Except Holdo’s refusal DOES make sense and DOES have a real explanation. Given that the First Order is consistently locating the Resistance (“Our base is Starkiller’s next target” in TFA, meaning the FO is aware of their base; in TLJ they evacuate BECAUSE of this, and even in just TLJ the FO tracks the Resistance through lightspeed and no one has any clue as to HOW they tracked 'em thru lightspeed) and given Holdo’s refusal, put two and two together and one can INFER she believes there’s a spy leaking information to the First Order.

Inferences ARE real explanations, they just aren’t explicitly confirmed in dialogue or in visual storytelling. It’s like saying the following inference I’m about to mention isn’t a real explanation - there’s a cat and a broken vase next to a table, put two and two together and one can INFER the cat knocked the vase off the table.

The audience has no reason at that point to believe that Vader is Luke’s father. That’s NOT how foreshadowing works.

You seem to have misread what I wrote again. I didn’t say those elements were foreshadowing or that anyone would suspect Vader was Luke’s father. I said they fit perfectly with the ESB reveal and take on new and deeper meaning when viewed through that lens, regardless of original intent. Which they obviously do.

But both reveals STILL came out of nowhere and had no explicit set-up. That’s my point. That foreshadowing is absolutely NOT necessary. That Palps’ return is surprising BECAUSE of the lack of set-up.

How, exactly?

By me watching Episodes VII and VIII after having seen IX and not feeling any newfound, Palpatine-related interest, that’s how (if anything, it got in the way of all the elements I was interested in). In fact, the most amazing things about my first post-TROS viewings of the previous movies was how I didn’t feel like they were leading up to anything Palpatine-related at all. They didn’t feel to me at all like they connected to TROS. And I am immensely grateful for that, because it helps me continue to enjoy those films on their own terms (even if I do have to settle for swapping out TROS for my own fan script in my personal headcanon).

If you enjoyed them and found meaning in the trilogy as a satisfying whole, great. I would never even think of trying to stop you. But that simply wasn’t my experience, nor was it the experience of most of the friends with whom I enjoy Star Wars.

I meant as in: “How does Palpatine’s return make the events less interesting?” And I already explained WHY it DOES make them MORE interesting.

Except the “Rey Palpatine” storyline ISN’T about family drama.

You’re reading too much into a simple phrase. It’s drama. It’s related to family. That’s all “family drama” means.

God, you don’t understand what it is.

it adds to Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness, whilst also reinforcing that the saga is about the conflict between the Skywalkers and Palpatine himself, with his heir basically flipping him off when she adopts the Skywalker name to honor Luke and Leia.

I don’t see “Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness” being a thing, sorry. I know it’s a point you’re passionate about, I’ve read some of your arguments about it, but I just don’t see her that way. If that interpretation is true and meaningful to you, then again, more power to you. It simply doesn’t factor into my interpretation.

I recommend you read my essay. It lists evidence and symptoms of it.

I also don’t care all that much for her adoption of the Skywalker name. Oh well.

I do. It drives home the point of the trilogy - the Skywalker legacy will live on after the actual bloodline (including Ben) dies off. It’s more meaningful than Luke’s daughter continuing their legacy.

Fair, but Anakin still brought balance for almost 30 years.

Yeah, it’s fair to say the ST doesn’t completely ignore the issue, but it sure doesn’t treat it as significant. If they were gonna use Palpatine, I would very much preferred a meatier treatment of it.

Why does that balance need to be significant, exactly?

Subjective.

That’s one of the most important points here. MOST of what we’re arguing about is subjective. Yes, you inferences mean most of the story’s events make enough sense from a canon perspective, and enjoying it on that level, as a package deal with the theorizing and the reference books and the other supplements is one thing. And yes, some unanswered questions are good in movies (mainly about themes, symbolism, tertiary plot points, etc.). But when discussing a film’s merits as a film, the core experience has to stand on its own, relying only on the other films in the same series. It must be digestible to casuals and fanboys alike, with as few obstacles as possible to both groups’ understanding and satisfaction.

To make another comparison, I mostly liked Solo, and I loved Maul’s cameo at the end, which I understood instantly because I followed The Clone Wars and Rebels. But I can also separate my personal enjoyment of the product from from my recognition that including Maul was a bad move from a general-audiences filmmaking standpoint, because it needlessly confused the hell out of a lot of people who didn’t know why a guy they last saw die in a movie from 1999 was suddenly back and running a crime cartel.

Yes, that’s what I’m arguing here. Film is subjective in whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing to YOU, but it’s objective in the sense of whether in-story and in-universe events and plot points and stuff DO make sense or not. That’s what MauLer - f%#king MauLer - means when he says film is objective.

Regarding Maul’s appearance in Solo, by your logic, it’s never explained how Anakin survived being burned up on Mustafar. Oh wait, one can infer the dark side kept both characters alive. And casual audiences don’t care or know about inference in storytelling, it’s their fault they haven’t paid attention in English class - that’s the problem with most Star Wars movie fans post-1998 (the “1998” is intentional).

Same with TFA and TLJ, by your logic.

Sure. I have no problem agreeing that both films have things that aren’t adequately explained, although in TFA and TLJ those things do not detract from my enjoyment nearly as much because I find them far stronger and more enjoyable movies overall.

Except TFA & TLJ DO have things that ARE explained. Those explanations rely on INFERENCE as well, same with TRoS, the prequels and every short film from Pixar. Even f%$king children’s cartoons rely on inference.

Except it IS impressive, because the Knights of Ren were trained and are skilled fighters - they’re more skilled than stormtroopers, who use blasters.

Most skilled normal fighters (outside of Mandalorians) are no match for a well-trained Jedi or Dark Jedi.

And? That’s not the point. Why else would Kylo Ren keep 'em around? Because they’re well-trained. They’re more of a threat to Resistance forces than stormtroopers. And all other Jedi (except Luke) were DEAD at the point he took 'em in.

And again, there was no indication Palps knew they were Force-sensitive.

If Snoke knew, then Palpatine would have known.

There’s no indication from the films Snoke knew, either.

I never said that, it’s just Palps personally wanted to be MORE powerful.

Well then if it’s just a matter of what he wanted, then any old able-bodied Force-sensitive would suffice. Guy would’ve been smart to dispatch some henchmen to search the galaxy for a few, just in case Oochi did something stupid like get himself killed in the desert while searching for Palpatine’s granddaughter.

[Camera zooms in like it’s an episode of The Office.]

That’s why Palpatine decided to turn Ben to the dark side.

Is there something wrong with that? No?

Sure there is. It robs the scenario of moral or thematic depth, and needlessly creates practical complication and confusion.

Again, subjective. I’d rather have my story make sense than have moral/thematic depth. And it is NOT confusing, as I’ve explained so many times in this thread.

This, alone, IMPLIES it works that way.

If something seems to work a certain way, and the best answer for why is circular (it works that way because we see it work that way), then it’s either a flawed concept or a flawed execution.

How is it flawed, exactly? It’s literally how it works in storytelling.

As I stated, Palpatine using Force lightning in RotJ, ALONE, implies he’s a powerful dark side Force-user and that only skilled dark side Force-users like him can use Force lightning. Why do you think neither Luke or Obi-Wan or Yoda or Vader use it?

Palpatine was OVERCONFIDENT. It’s something Luke spells out in RotJ: “Your overconfidence is your weakness.”

Sure, but overconfident doesn’t mean incompetent, and it certainly never has in Palpatine’s case.

Except Palpatine being overconfident DOES make him incompetent. Because of that, he’s so incompetent he doesn’t realize Vader’s about to pick him up and throw him into the shaft. In the same way, he doesn’t realize Rey’s gonna reflect his Force lightning onto his face, and he was hoping for her to die from his attack.

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Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Way for that point to go over your head. I’m saying that set-up doesn’t matter. AT ALL. The lack of a set-up makes the actual reveal more surprising and impactful (+ Palpatine being established as a mastermind and having an interest in immortality and willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy). Palps’ return is SUPPOSED to be a surprise.

Set-up matters depending on context. Would Avengers: Infinity Work have worked so well if the Infinity Stones or Thanos hadn’t been established in prior movies?

The difference is that Palpatine was a pre-established character who’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, a mastermind, and is willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy. He’s played both sides during the prequels, for f&$k’s sake! We’ve seen what Palpatine does and can do.

Thanos and the Infinity Stones would not in your hypothetical example.

TROS was meant to be a climax for both the sequel trilogy and the overall Skywalker saga. It has over 40 years of established lore and audience appeal behind it. It should have been a satisfying payoff for the storylines set in motion by TFA and TLJ, but instead it

It what? Say it! Are you the king? ARE YOU THE KING?! You’re what? Say it!

SparkySywer has a really good point on how the Darth Vader twist works because in retrospective it makes sense. When you rewatch ESB one begins to notice the nuances and clues that originally flew over one’s head. But in the sequel trilogy, looking back at TFA and TLJ, you don’t find many elements that tease or contextualise Palpatine’s return. Their storylines, particularly TLJ’s, don’t seem to be building towards this particular premise. A very diferent situation would have happened if TLJ or both TFA/TLJ had been made with Palps’s comeback in mind.

Snoke mind-probing Rey has Palpatine’s theme playing. Palpatine has a desire for immortality in RotS, and implies he DOES know how to keep himself alive during the opera scene. Kylo Ren asks for Vader’s helmet to show him that power AGAIN. Snoke is very similar to Palpatine and even repeats his lines in TLJ. Even Snoke’s guards have the same color scheme as Palps’ guards.

I’ll concede to you that the transmission itself is not really important, which is why I don’t understand what was the point of having it in the first place. The time they deciphered the intel should have been the moment where anyone (save for Kylo) first heard of Palpatine’s comeback instead of muddying the waters with an offscreen broadcast.

The point was to give Kylo Ren a motivation to hunt down Palpatine, and to add more weight to when Poe confirms to the Resistance that Palpatine IS alive.

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I feel like we’ve been going around in circles on most of this, Testing, so I won’t waste either of our time going point-by-point (also, frankly I’m going to resist the urge to respond in kind to some of the more obnoxious lines).

Instead, I’ll just share one piece of sincere advice: it’s fine to be passionate about a movie you like and other people don’t, but trying to badger people into liking something never works. If anything, it’s more likely to leave people less inclined to take a fresh look at the thing you’re championing.

Co-author of STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER - THE TEAM DALE REWRITE

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Cadavra said:

I feel like we’ve been going around in circles on most of this, Testing, so I won’t waste either of our time going point-by-point (also, frankly I’m going to resist the urge to respond in kind to some of the more obnoxious lines).

I just wanted you to understand my perspective and see where I’m coming from. That’s the point of discussion. And if you’re referring to stuff in capitals, I’m just using that to highlight my point and come across as a bit stern so you’d understand.

Instead, I’ll just share one piece of sincere advice: it’s fine to be passionate about a movie you like and other people don’t, but trying to badger people into liking something never works. If anything, it’s more likely to leave people less inclined to take a fresh look at the thing you’re championing.

I edited it to remove that part.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

act on instinct said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

act on instinct said:

Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.

Except inferences are there to clog up plot holes so the story would make sense. Why do you think J.J. had Kylo Ren be injured in TFA?

And “I don’t like sand” DOES make sense. He’s using it as a comparison to describe how nice and beautiful Naboo and Padmé are.

Secondly, Anakin grew up with an organization that kept telling him to repress his feelings and attachments, so of course “I don’t like sand” was gonna sound so awkward and lifeless. It reinforces how awful the old Jedi Order is.

You didn’t read what I said at all. My point was that technical connections don’t absolve poor execution. You can cook a chicken without burning it and still make a bland meal.

How are they poorly-executed, exactly? “I don’t like sand” was executed well, it reinforced how bad the old Jedi are and was a natural progression of Anakin growing up with it holding him back emotionally.

You’re looking at that line from a logical, script perspective. Not from an acting, directing, or chemistry perspective. And I think that’s why you will continue to not understand any of our perspectives because you fail to at least acknowledge some of these decisions were executed poorly, whether or not the idea is good on paper. You are still more than welcome to like them, though. Just because it works for you doesn’t mean it should work for everyone else.

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And I think that’s why you will continue to not understand any of our perspectives because you fail to at least acknowledge some of these decisions were executed poorly

It’s called “having an opinion”. You think some decisions were executed badly, I don’t think those specific ones are.

Not from an acting, directing, or chemistry perspective.

I AM looking at the line this way. The things I mentioned are WHY the delivery is lifeless. It being lifeless is the point.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

I AM looking at the line this way. The things I mentioned are WHY the delivery is lifeless. It being lifeless is the point.

I don’t know, man. You’re saying the stilted, wooden acting of the scene is because of his Jedi training and not because of stilted, wooden acting? Do you think that intent comes across in the filmmaking? It’s fine if you do, but I don’t know any other people with that read on the scene.

I’m not blaming Hayden, btw. It’s an awkward line, and Lucas bears huge responsibility for all of the actors’ performances.

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I think it’s highlighting a bad example (my fault) when the bigger point is that whether you can draw connections or not it doesn’t make the result strong, the intention can all be there and it still fall flat. Stories are more than math, if there’s not an emotional connection with the audience it doesn’t come together. Think about Back to the Future, analyze too deeply and the logic doesn’t hold up but it’s forgiven for the result, it works on an emotional level and we feel with the characters. Most people aren’t playing a points game with the movies, it’s not a score sheet, it’s a taste test.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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It reminds me of people defending their student films. Obviously student films are rarely ever perfect, as that is the time when young filmmakers are learning the craft.

But, some student filmmakers struggle to take criticism. People will offer some feedback, but then they’ll say that those mistakes actually aren’t mistakes, and the wooden acting or sloppy writing is intentional. Or maybe viewers struggle to understand the story, and they get frustrated that people don’t understand the plot even though all of the pieces are there. So, is it a failure on the audience for failing to understand the plot, or the failure of the filmmaker to make their plot more coherent?

Obviously we’re talking about a blockbuster and not a student film, but the same thing can apply to any film. George or a fan could say Hayden’s acting is wooden because he’s a Jedi who lacks lacks any social intelligence. Maybe one could use that as an excuse in retrospect, but was that the intention when George directed that scene? And even if it was, is it even the right decision if audiences aren’t feeling the emotions or understanding the characters in the way you wanted them to?

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I consider myself a prequel fan, and I’ve never felt able to defend the infamous sand line. It’s just an awkward piece of dialogue, made worse by Lucas’s directing of the actors (which, granted, it was never his biggest strength).

TestingOutTheTest said:

It what? Say it! Are you the king? ARE YOU THE KING?! You’re what? Say it!

Lol I never noticed I didn’t finish my point 😄 I meant to say I’d prefered if TROS had devoted more time to build on what was set by its two immediate predecessors rather than introducing and solving a completely new aspect to the story in a rather short time span. Again, I believe Palpatine being brought back could have worked well in another context (in fact I wish it had been the driving force from the beginning, rather than having a literal stand-in in the form of Snoke), but here it feels rushed making for a payoff that for many seems less satisfying that it should have been.

Snoke mind-probing Rey has Palpatine’s theme playing. Palpatine has a desire for immortality in RotS, and implies he DOES know how to keep himself alive during the opera scene. Kylo Ren asks for Vader’s helmet to show him that power AGAIN. Snoke is very similar to Palpatine and even repeats his lines in TLJ. Even Snoke’s guards have the same color scheme as Palps’ guards.

I’ll grant you that Snoke having Palpatine’s theme feels now better in retrospective (instead of being just an unsubtle remainder of ‘remember! he’s our Emperor stand-in’). But the rest were just similarities to drive home the parallelisms with the OT (almost everything in the ST, from the ships to the armors, is a reimagining or visual callback to familiar elements of the OT). Since Snoke plays the part of Palpatine (at least until he’s killed off), it was expected TLJ would feature familiar OT iconography in the form of red guards and even its own version of the ROTJ creepy advisers.

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Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Snoke mind-probing Rey has Palpatine’s theme playing. Palpatine has a desire for immortality in RotS, and implies he DOES know how to keep himself alive during the opera scene. Kylo Ren asks for Vader’s helmet to show him that power AGAIN. Snoke is very similar to Palpatine and even repeats his lines in TLJ. Even Snoke’s guards have the same color scheme as Palps’ guards.

I’ll grant you that Snoke having Palpatine’s theme feels now better in retrospective (instead of being just an unsubtle remainder of ‘remember! he’s our Emperor stand-in’). But the rest were just similarities to drive home the parallelisms with the OT (almost everything in the ST, from the ships to the armors, is a reimagining or visual callback to familiar elements of the OT). Since Snoke plays the part of Palpatine (at least until he’s killed off), it was expected TLJ would feature familiar OT iconography in the form of red guards and even its own version of the ROTJ creepy advisers.

Unintended, retroactive foreshadowing that Palps’ return pays off and fits in with.