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.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released) — Page 15

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But is it necessary to do during the capture? That's more work for the computer, and you don't want to drop any frames (otherwise, the capture is worthless for this), and you'll have the fields afterwards anyways. I don't see why you can't combine the fields later.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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No, sorry, I didn't mean to capture progressive - that's impossible from a LD player anyway - I meant that the first operation in the AVISynth script should be Telecide(), before any filtering.

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yup, that's my problem then, I have always used huffyuv as yuy2, never as an rgb. bugger.
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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Originally posted by: Moth3r...some people say that the older model CLD-2950 which [the CLD-D925] replaced had a slightly better picture quality...

I read that, too. But then the best, most objective-sounding review I could find opined that the 925 was, in fact, just a bit nicer. So I went for that one. I don't think there's much between them, either way.

And yes, in my A/B testing I did find turning the HQ circuit on actually made the output picture worse. Sort of softer, and more red. I also discovered there is no difference between the cheapest RCA cable and Monster Cable's near-top-of-the-line fancy-ass thing.

As I understand it, you should use telecide on the capture to combine the fields back into progressive frames before any processing.


That's what I thought I read. I'm just lazy; I should really try it myself instead of asking alla time.

@tellan:

I use YUY2 exclusively, and have never had any problems with AviSynth or VDubMod. Never tried Premiere et al, though.


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"I have always used huffyuv as yuy2, never as an rgb."

You may not need to recapture. Stick your current AVI in VDub, save as HuffyUV with the "Always suggest RGB format" clicked, and see if the new AVI will work in Premiere. It's worth a try.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I also discovered there is no difference between the cheapest RCA cable and Monster Cable's near-top-of-the-line fancy-ass thing.

Ok buddy, you've just crossed the line with that remark. There is no way in hell that a 2 dollar video cable from Radio Shack is going to transfer the video signal as efficiently as a high quality dual-shielded Monster Cable. If you're not seeing a difference, it's because you're lucking out and not getting any noise introduced into your signal.

Nothing more to see here. Move along.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Originally posted by: zion
I also discovered there is no difference between the cheapest RCA cable and Monster Cable's near-top-of-the-line fancy-ass thing.

Ok buddy, you've just crossed the line with that remark. There is no way in hell that a 2 dollar video cable from Radio Shack is going to transfer the video signal as efficiently as a high quality dual-shielded Monster Cable. If you're not seeing a difference, it's because you're lucking out and not getting any noise introduced into your signal.

Nothing more to see here. Move along.


It was more like a free cable from Apex! You're right: in theory, and in the lab, I think the MC is measurably better. Good construction, large amount of signal path, great shielding. For a high-quality HD signal or something, I think the MC cable would make a difference. But LD (any LD) is already so noisy and soft (and composite to boot) that I don't think the miniscule amount of noise introduced by a poorly-shielded cable makes any difference at all in a setup where outside RF noise isn't already an issue.

I can post some screen caps taken with the two cables, but believe me, there's no difference. The HQ/no HQ thing Moth3r and I have been discussing makes way more difference.

If you're seeing a difference in your setup with a MC cable, then that's what you should be using! For me, I wanted to believe MC was demonstrably better, but strictly-controlled A/B testing and a completely uninterested third-party opinion (my wife's) showed me the extra $60 or so wasn't worth it.
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I have the CLD 2950 and also have disabled the HQ circuit when capturing I found that letting the ADVC 300 do the NR makes a much better job, I think the only difference between the two players is the ac3 rf output and the digital frame store.

When I manage to get hold of some french thx discs (keep getting sniped dam 56k connection!) I will post some captures.

I do feel a bit lost with all this virtualDub and avisyth talk, is this all PC only software?
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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Karyudo, I understand what you're saying. Though, I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise. I used to be a Home Theater salesman, and now that I'm an electronics tech, my mind is set in it's ways and I don't think I'm going to change. Anyway, I have to justify spending $40 on a couple of THX certified Monster composite cables somehow, right?

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Originally posted by: zion
Anyway, I have to justify spending $40 on a couple of THX certified Monster composite cables somehow, right?


Heh, heh! Yeah, I'll allow you that. There's no doubt MC makes a nice product, and I wouldn't cripple my otherwise-awesome home theatre with junky $2 cables, either.

For LD capping, though, the way I think about it is, How much better do you think the picture could be because of good cables? One percent? Let's assume you could see that difference with a nice, sharp DVD source. I'd say 1% is actually generous; I think that amount of difference would be pretty apparent, yet a lot of people bicker back and forth about whether cables really make a visible difference. So it could be less than that. But let's say it's 1%, and just visible with a good DVD source.

Now, how much worse than a DVD source is LD? I'd say at least 10%; probably more. You've got luma and chroma stored together (i.e. composite), you've got no anamorphism, you've got picture noise inherent in the format, you've got dot crawl and comb filter issues. Even making an LD, you'd be working from an analog tape (albeit a high-quality one), so you're going to have generational losses just to get the thing onto LD. So maybe that 10% is underestimating things somewhat.

Compare the probably-less-than-1% improvement with the probably-more-than-10% degradation in "reference" signal you're comparing, and you're looking at the cable maybe contributing up to 1/11th of the general crappiness of the picture. I think that puts the cable's importance way down there someplace. Its positive effect probably falls below the measurement (in this case, capping) error of the measuring device (in this case, the cap card).

I could be wrong in some of my estimates, but that's about how I see it.

Now, all bets are off if there is significant noise coming from outside sources! There I'd imagine the MC cable's improved shielding, etc., would eliminate a large quantity of outside noise, which itself could conceivably add substantially to the picture quality degradation. So there you could be looking at the cable eliminating 75% of the source of, say, 10% of the noise, for an overall improvement of about 8%.

Which I have to say, I would pursue.


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Virtual Dub is the only reason I still use Windows...

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Now, all bets are off if there is significant noise coming from outside sources! There I'd imagine the MC cable's improved shielding, etc., would eliminate a large quantity of outside noise, which itself could conceivably add substantially to the picture quality degradation. So there you could be looking at the cable eliminating 75% of the source of, say, 10% of the noise, for an overall improvement of about 8%.

Which I have to say, I would pursue.

Now consider for a moment that you live in a dormitory like I do. Right off the bat, you've got a lot of noise coming from the power outlets. And even though I've got one of the better Monster power centers, I still get a significant amount of noise into my video sources. Add to that the fact that I've got a pluthera of wires going in and out and crossing all over the place behind my computer desk, things are bound to get a little messy. When I compare my monster video cable to a standard one, I can see a big difference.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Originally posted by: KaryudoI also discovered there is no difference between the cheapest RCA cable and Monster Cable's near-top-of-the-line fancy-ass thing.
Have you tried the s-video output?

Yes I know that the video stored on a laserdisc is composite to begin with; however, the D925 converts it to RGB for the digital processing circuits, then extracts the chroma and luma for the s-video output. The composite output is the chroma and luma recombined - it would make sense to use the s-video coneection and retain the separation.

For what it's worth, I use an OFC s-video cable with gold plated connectors - nowhere near "top-of-the-line" but a little better than your average freebie.

I also have a composite cable that came free with my graphics card - I guess I should really do some testing to see if there is any noticeable difference.

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Originally posted by: Moth3rHave you tried the s-video output?

Yeah, I did some A/B testing with four cables: Monster S-video, Monster RCA, generic S-video, and generic RCA. In some cases, I thought there was maybe a bit more chroma aberration (noise, splotches, etc.) with the RCA composite output, but the S-video was definitely softer in more cases. Especially when looking at star fields! Which might not be all that important for many movies, but is sort of an issue for SW...

I figured I'd be able to do a better job of cleaning up chroma junk in AviSynth (et al) than trying to invent resolution and detail, so I went with composite output.

Yes I know that the video stored on a laserdisc is composite to begin with; however, the D925 converts it to RGB for the digital processing circuits, then extracts the chroma and luma for the s-video output. The composite output is the chroma and luma recombined - it would make sense to use the s-video connection and retain the separation.


OTOH, I don't think even the digital comb filters in latter LD players are as good as the comb filters in a decent modern 9- or 10-bit cap card chipsets. Even if it's true that the D925 converts to RGB for processing, that doesn't mean it has to separate Y and C, so no comb filtering needs to occur before composite output. In which case, I'd rather have my cap card take care of that.

But I wouldn't take my word for it: do some testing on your own (like you suggested), and then let us know the results!

Sorry, zion, if this is getting a little off-topic. It's kind of important stuff, I think, but it certainly isn't exactly absolutely necessary in your thread. I think I'm pretty much done, though.
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I won't deny that it gets annoying at times when things get off-topic in here, but I haven't had much to say the last few days regarding my project, so no worries. Besides, I'm still waiting for some of my equipment to come in, and I'm working on a different project in the meantime (Sealab 2021 DVD's). Come next week though, it's back to business.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Next time you do some screen shots can you show the x-wings flying past Yavin on the way to the death star?

Cheers
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Zion,

how are you approaching the whole sound aspect of the film? are you demodulating the sound from your LD player and trying to get something surroundish or are you just going straight stereo which is flagged as pro logic surround in Besweet for example?
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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I haven't really done much with sound yet, but I've been throwing a few ideas around lately. My first thought is to have a stereo (pro-logic surround) PCM track. I'm also thinking of trying to create a 5.1 DTS track from the pro-logic audio. If I like the way it sounds, I may just 86 the PCM track and go with 1536k DTS 5.1 which is almost exactly the same file size. Of course I'll be capturing the audio digitally via coax.

As it stands right now, this is what I want on my DVD's:

PCM 2.0 surround (uncompressed) or DTS 5.1 surround (1536k)
Dolby Digital 2.0 (192k)
Dolby Digital 2.0 Commentary (192k)
Dolby Digital 2.0 Music Only (192k)

Those are just ideas in my head at this point. Right now I'm more worried about the audio syncing up correctly and whether I really need to be capturing the audio and video at the same time. So far I've been capturing video only.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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"go with 1536k DTS 5.1 which is almost exactly the same file size."

But will a DVD player be able to handle it?

"Dolby Digital 2.0 Music Only (192k)"

Where are you getting the music track from?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I don't see why a DVD player wouldn't be able to handle it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as the combined audio/video/subpicture bitrate doesn't exceed 10Mbps, it should be fine. Besides, isn't PCM's bit rate just as high?

As for the music-only track, I recieved a copy of the soundtracks from Echo3 so I'll probably use that to create the dvd tracks.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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--edit--

Oops, nevermind, I didn't read your post clearly enough...
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Sounds promising Zion. I hope my LDs are still ok.

I cannot wait to see your next update.

JW

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What kind of card is it?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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It's a MSI TV @nywhere Master card (priceless? ). I bought it because it has the same awesome capture chip as my Winfast card (Conexant CX23883) but the connector is directly on the card rather than via a multi-in cable. I don't know if the quality difference I'm seeing is because of the card itself or the lack of a multi-in cable. But I don't really care, it's the results that matter.

Oh, and this just in - my CLD-D704 is finally here. Time to get down to business...

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]