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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 361

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Hal 9000 said:

I think the most important thing is establishing D-O has the poop on Exegol. And something that has enough of a kick to be a compelling transition to Ach-To.

First of all, I started cracking up at this; thank you, Hal. (I also started cracking up at your summary of the novelization. God, what a mess.) Secondly, why does it matter that D-O has information on Exegol? They get the navigation coordinates by tracking Rey; it can be implied that she also transmits data on the atmospheric conditions of the planet once she gets there. Honestly, that was my impression the first time I watched the film anyway.

Just to be clear on the current trajectory of Ascendant: the film will be structured around the idea that Palpy has always wanted Rey dead? So we cut out Finn’s and Sheev’s lines about “He’s/I’ve always wanted her alive.” Does Palpy ever offer any explanation why he would change his mind for the finale though? How is that going to play out?

The Rise of Skywalker: Untold - A “Rey Nobody” edit of Ep. IX | Looking for voices and VFX - Please reach out if interested!

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I really think that Neerb’s idea is the best bet. Not just for Rey Nobody (although it would be significantly easier to cut the Granddaughter stuff out of that version, I think) - it just makes for a stronger film. One of the main failings of TROS is that things just…happen; there’s no investment, no audience engagement, no subtlety. I think it falls flat because (among other reasons) there’s nothing in it to make the audience care. To make them want to watch. If we add a bit of mystery to the plot, it will make the 90 minute fetch quest much more interesting; there will always be that thought in the back of the audience’s mind, “What’s Palpatine’s plan? What’s Kylo Ren going to do to her?”

And I know Hal has said he wants to keep the connection between Snoke and Sheev; I really do disagree. Palpatine’s immediate goals are different than Snoke’s - Palps wants to possess a new Force user, Snokey Boy wants to conquer the galaxy. The Final Order is really just Kylo’s incentive to help deliver Rey to Palpy. From that lens, it makes sense that Snoke and Palpy have no connection. (Maybe there’s even a way to imply that Kylo coming to Exegol is what “awakens” Palpatine? Like, him entering the temple causes the lights to flicker on, and the GLaDOS machine to activate? That would explain why Palpatine has been MIA for the entire trilogy.)

Not to mention narratively, it’s a huge crutch right out of the gate to try and ret-con the previous two movies. Palpy already feels like a last minute addition (because he is). I honestly think it would be stronger to just acknowledge that fact, lean into it, and move on, rather than come up with some convoluted backpedaling for it.

Just my two cents. Obviously I can’t speak for everyone.

The Rise of Skywalker: Untold - A “Rey Nobody” edit of Ep. IX | Looking for voices and VFX - Please reach out if interested!

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 (Edited)

As much as I like my own idea (in theory) for this movie, one of the main things Hal wants out of this edit is to not just make it better itself, but to make the trilogy feel more cohesive as a whole. The connection between Palpatine and Snoke is very iffy at best, but it is at least a connection. Plus, if the “voices” line were cut to avoid potential confusion of Snoke’s free will, it would also take away the only “payoff” we ever get to Kylo speaking to Vader’s helmet in TFA, which, again, is iffy but at least a connection of some kind. The more conservative solution he’s proposed, cutting only Finn and Palpatine’s lines to more convincingly sell the idea that Palpatine changed his mind in the climax of TROS, is a way to preserve those connections while still also making TROS at least a bit more coherent in of itself.

On that note, if we’re trimming Palps’ dialog about “never” wanting Rey dead, I’d like to bring up my example of such a cut from last night (which I promptly derailed from for the other idea)
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1411675/action/topic#1411675

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That’s fair, I get that. I really do like the sound of cutting the Finn line and the Palpatine line; I’m just confused how Palpatine gets from “Kill the girl” to “My spirit will pass into you.” Would someone be willing to elaborate? Maybe I just missed part of the discussion.

I can appreciate Palpatine “mak[ing] Snoke” if we really want to tie everything together - again, fair point - but I still think the “Every voice” part of the line should be removed.

I like the implication for TFA that Kylo was imploring Vader to speak to him, but he never actually heard anything. My impression of that scene has always been that Kylo is basically praying to his version of a god for guidance, because he feels lost and confused. Kylo has always felt alone, isolated. He feels abandoned by his parents, betrayed by Luke, forsaken by Rey, no one in the First Order actually likes him…everyone to whom he’s tried to reach out has turned their backs on him. Vader is basically all he has left (other than his abusive Master), and is his main motivation for being all Sith-y. I find it more compelling (and sympathetic) if even Darth Vader is giving him the cold shoulder, if all of these people Kylo cares about refuse to condone his descent to the Dark Side. Taking that away, giving him a “friend” in Vader, kind of goes against his whole characterization as a loner, not to mention makes him kind of an idiot to fall for that trick.

The only evidence I’ve heard to the contrary is that he says “Show me again the power of the Dark Side,” but that’s easily interpreted as “Snoke showed me the power of the Dark Side. Please, show it to me again to prove that I’m on the right track.”

The fact that it also avoids the discrepancy between Snoke trying to kill Rey and Palpatine needing her alive is just the icing on the cake.

The Rise of Skywalker: Untold - A “Rey Nobody” edit of Ep. IX | Looking for voices and VFX - Please reach out if interested!

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The line about transferring Palpatine’s spirit has already been moved to the opening sequence in address to Kylo Ren. That should be enough to imply he could change his mind and select a new target, in principle.

I’m not saying it’s great but to me it would’ve had a lot fewer people walking out of the movie genuinely confused about Palpatine’s plans throughout the plot.

What would be sublime is a line to add to the Palpatine-Pryde conversation to further imply this. At present he does say Leia threw a monkey wrench into his plans and he intends for Rey to come to Exegol…
somehow.

Actually… in this new streamlined approach, why the heck would he expect her to come there?

Anyway, some line about “Now I’ll focus on her” or something would help further. It might not need to be a slam dunk match if hologram processing is applied and perhaps further applied to the entire scene to get it to fit in.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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“Search for the girl. She may be yet of some use to us”

The Skywalker Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX
This is the way.

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Could you isolate and manipulate the line from the D23 special look to say, “her journey is nearing its end” to imply his plans have changed to focus on Rey?

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

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 (Edited)

This could work using existing Palpatine quotes to piece it together:

Emperor:
The Princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plan. But her foolish act will be in vain. Come to me on Exegol, General Pryde.

Pryde:
As I served you in the old wars, I serve you now.

Emperor:
I want the girl, the force is strong with her. Her journey nears its end. The Final Order begins.

Pryde:
Yes, my lord.

The Skywalker Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX
This is the way.

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I like the cut of your jib, DZ-330

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

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Yes, however for it to work the “Long have I waited…” and assumptions that this always has been the plan needs to be removed.

It needs to be clear there was 3 targets in this order:

  1. Rey’s dad
  2. Ben Solo
  3. Rey

Maybe instead of “Weak… like your parents”, when Rey resists it can turn to “Weak… like your father”

The Skywalker Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX
This is the way.

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DZ-330 said:

Yes, however for it to work the “Long have I waited…” and assumptions that this always has been the plan needs to be removed.

Yes that is why I suggested to Hal that he removes the “for my granddaughter to come home” part after he says that because in the version we’re going for it wouldn’t have been a long time waiting for her to come home. He only just recently changed plans.

With that line removed and the “I never wanted you dead” line the conversation goes, “Long have I waited… you will take the throne.” So he’s really talking about how long he has waited for a worthy vessel to take the throne.

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 (Edited)

Exactly. Now we’re onto something!

Edit: flipping around the responses somehow makes it flow even better

Emperor:
The Princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plan. But her foolish act will be in vain. I want the girl, the force is strong with her.

Pryde:
Yes, my lord.

Emperor:
Her journey nears its end. Come to me on Exegol, General Pryde. The Final Order begins.

Pryde:
As I served you in the old wars, I serve you now.

And then while on Exegol:

“I don’t want you dead… I want you here.”

"Long have I waited… your father… Ben Solo… now YOU will take the throne.”

“Weak… like your father.”

The Skywalker Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX
This is the way.

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^ I can try swapping those two lines but I’m skeptical it will work well.

In this way of thinking about it, Palpatine wanted Rey dead as a child bc he sensed her power as a threat. Her parents wouldn’t betray her location so he killed them.

And that ought to work fine in this and a Rey Nobody version. Unless the latter goes for keeping her parents and deadbeats.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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 (Edited)

Thing is… Rey’s father isn’t force sensitive according to Canon. And for good reason. Otherwise he never would have been allowed to escape Exegol. While that might work, it would be simpler just to reduce it to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren as his first choice.

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 (Edited)

It was still Palpatine’s plan to use Rey’s father until he discovered it wouldn’t work. But whatever is the easier for the viewer to understand.

The Skywalker Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX
This is the way.

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 (Edited)

Hal 9000 said:

In this way of thinking about it, Palpatine wanted Rey dead as a child bc he sensed her power as a threat. Her parents wouldn’t betray her location so he killed them.

Also because “he saw what [she] would become” according to Kylo. So basically he knew that whenever she returned she would be a powerful user of the light. Thus why he would want her dead so Kylo doesn’t come back to the light, or possibly get killed.

EDIT: Funnily enough, both of those last things happen to Kylo technically because she was allowed to live.

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Hal 9000 said:

Actually… in this new streamlined approach, why the heck would he expect her to come there?

Probably because he has just sensed a massive shift in the force which he correlates with Leia returning Ben to the light. As a result, he knows Ben has a wayfinder still, and so he is probably hoping that him and Rey will come to him together (where he would theoretically want to kill Ben and thereby corrupt Rey).

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You reckon JJ and Chris Terrio ever really hashed out a clear idea in their minds of what the plan was? I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the clarity was just lost in editing, but maybe the whole thing is a casualty of the rushed production.

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This ^
I’m pretty sure they never were able to come to a solid plan while filming. Look no further than the fact that Palpatine’s original plan in the script was to get Rey and Ben together in order to drain their dyad (which would have been significantly better imo), and JJ also wasn’t sure if he wanted Rey to be a Palpatine even while filming.

If we had access to all the filmed material, I’m convinced we could have made a significantly better film. Instead, we have to make sense out of what we have (or otherwise gut the entire movie).

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Look no further than the fact that Palpatine’s original plan in the script was to get Rey and Ben together in order to drain their dyad (which would have been significantly better imo)

I’m gonna have to disagree. If draining Rey and Ben was Palpatine’s plan all along, then that would undermine all the decisions they made up to that point. It’s still a problem in the final movie - if Rey and Ben hadn’t gone to Exegol, Palpatine wouldn’t have gotten the power to electrocute the civilian fleet and the sith would still lose - but at least he discovers the dyad by accident. If he wanted them together from the beginning, that would mean all of the inspirational moments they’ve had (Kylo being redeemed, Luke lifting the X-Wing, Rey and Ben deciding to stand together) were exactly what Palpatine wanted, and that makes the whole movie worse in my opinion.

You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?

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Ed Slushie said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Look no further than the fact that Palpatine’s original plan in the script was to get Rey and Ben together in order to drain their dyad (which would have been significantly better imo)

I’m gonna have to disagree. If draining Rey and Ben was Palpatine’s plan all along, then that would undermine all the decisions they made up to that point. It’s still a problem in the final movie - if Rey and Ben hadn’t gone to Exegol, Palpatine wouldn’t have gotten the power to electrocute the civilian fleet and the sith would still lose - but at least he discovers the dyad by accident. If he wanted them together from the beginning, that would mean all of the inspirational moments they’ve had (Kylo being redeemed, Luke lifting the X-Wing, Rey and Ben deciding to stand together) were exactly what Palpatine wanted, and that makes the whole movie worse in my opinion.

True, hadn’t thought about that.

Although, it isn’t as much of a problem in the final movie as you say it is. While it’s true that Palpatine himself wouldn’t have been rejuvenated if Ben didn’t show up, that also makes it highly unlikely that Rey wouldn’t have gone through with the sacrifice. This is because Ben is what gives her the hope to resist Palpatine. So Palpy would have possessed Rey and cleaned house with the Resistance. Not sure what Ben could really do from there.

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I guess you could make the argument for Rey not showing up. Luke kinda messed up by convincing her to leave Ahch-To, come to think of it. Ben likely would have realized Rey wasn’t on Exegol, and the two of them would have just chilled elsewhere while the Resistance launched an attack on Exegol.

Fairly certain that Finn, Poe, and co. would have gotten rid of all the Star Destroyers in that battle. Their actions never relied on the Palpatine interactions, did they?

Oh boy, I’m never going to be able to forget this plot hole now.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Oh boy, I’m never going to be able to forget this plot hole now.

Sorry.

You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?

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Ed Slushie said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Oh boy, I’m never going to be able to forget this plot hole now.

Sorry.

It’s fine. Ghosty Luke likely knew future events and saw that this was the easiest way to permanently destroy Palpatine. If neither Rey nor Ben showed up, who knows what shenanigans he would have done during the battle and after. He could probably drain all the troops that tried to attack him and escape somehow.

At least that’s my head canon answer.