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Mando EP2: Search for the Jedi [V2 RELEASED] — Page 4

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StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Gideon is established as still being alive when he meets Bo-Katan, and it’s not like he starts hunting Gideon prior to Grogu’s capture… could be that Grogu’s capture is what establishes Gideon as being alive at all. Boba might even mention it, I know he mentioned Din being hunted.

But even after Grogu was captured, Mando would still have no idea Gideon was alive. All he saw was some weird droids kidnapping Grogu, and a Star Destroyer jumping into hyperspace. Nothing that confirms Gideon’s survival. I still maintain that cutting Chapter 12 creates a plot hole because of that, and it should be kept in at least a trimmed fashion.

So, while the tanks are fun, and seeing familiar faces that don’t contribute to the story or character development is fun, I think story beats and major character development to the protagonist should be prioritised.

But the character development given to Din didn’t really last. He took his mask off, but after that he put it back on and pretended it never happened. Neither episode is really crucial to the character development, so I’d prefer the one that establishes several new plot elements over an episode where the changes don’t really have much consequence.

Character development is defined by a character making a choice. Having witnesses doesn’t define the moment (which there is one living witness). Think back to when the Armourer asked him if he took it off in front of another, he could have lied… but it’s about honour. That sacrifice and his honour are still being risked even if the Imperials die. He’s still sacrificing everything he held dear prior to meeting Grogu. That’s worth keeping, especially since it was such a big part of the first film’s climax that he was willing to die rather than remove his helmet to receive medical help.

Also, having multiple characters talk about Gideon and inform Din he’s being hunted right before the Imperials kidnap Grogu (again ignored that Bo-Katan mentioned Gideon isn’t dead). There’s no plot hole.

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JakeRyan17 said:
Also, having multiple characters talk about Gideon and inform Din he’s being hunted right before the Imperials kidnap Grogu (again ignored that Bo-Katan mentioned Gideon isn’t dead). There’s no plot hole.

Just watched Chapter 11 again, Bo-Katan never mentioned Gideon by Name either in front of Din or else.
Furthermore cutting the scene in chapter 12 with mayfield telling Din Gideon is alive would be strange later. Why would Din hunt down Gideon again? Why wouldn’t Din questioned anyone to get intel on who hunts him?
So there is a plot hole for Din. Not the viewer, that’s right.

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CMMAP said:

JakeRyan17 said:
Also, having multiple characters talk about Gideon and inform Din he’s being hunted right before the Imperials kidnap Grogu (again ignored that Bo-Katan mentioned Gideon isn’t dead). There’s no plot hole.

Just watched Chapter 11 again, Bo-Katan never mentioned Gideon by Name either in front of Din or else.
Furthermore cutting the scene in chapter 12 with mayfield telling Din Gideon is alive would be strange later. Why would Din hunt down Gideon again? Why wouldn’t Din questioned anyone to get intel on who hunts him?
So there is a plot hole for Din. Not the viewer, that’s right.

It wasn’t Mayfeld who told him that, he found out from the hologram of Dr. Pershing. But you’re right. I heard JakeRyan talking about Bo-Katan mentioning that Gideon was alive, and I thought “That’s weird, I don’t remember that happening.” So I think he must have just been misremembering when he said that. Cutting Chapter 12 does create a plot hole then.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

CMMAP said:

JakeRyan17 said:
Also, having multiple characters talk about Gideon and inform Din he’s being hunted right before the Imperials kidnap Grogu (again ignored that Bo-Katan mentioned Gideon isn’t dead). There’s no plot hole.

Just watched Chapter 11 again, Bo-Katan never mentioned Gideon by Name either in front of Din or else.
Furthermore cutting the scene in chapter 12 with mayfield telling Din Gideon is alive would be strange later. Why would Din hunt down Gideon again? Why wouldn’t Din questioned anyone to get intel on who hunts him?
So there is a plot hole for Din. Not the viewer, that’s right.

It wasn’t Mayfeld who told him that, he found out from the hologram of Dr. Pershing. But you’re right. I heard JakeRyan talking about Bo-Katan mentioning that Gideon was alive, and I thought “That’s weird, I don’t remember that happening.” So I think he must have just been misremembering when he said that. Cutting Chapter 12 does create a plot hole then.

Right, dr. Pershing, mixed that up with mayfeld ensuring Din this is legit.

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Does Din know that Gideon dies? How does Luke know Vader’s alive in Empire Strikes Back? His ship was shot down in space…

You all keep saying plot hole, it’s not a plot hole.

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JakeRyan17 said:

Does Din know that Gideon dies? How does Luke know Vader’s alive in Empire Strikes Back? His ship was shot down in space…

You all keep saying plot hole, it’s not a plot hole.

The difference with ESB is that there was a time skip of 3 years in between ANH and that movie, by which point Luke would have has plenty of time to figure out Vader was alive. Mando doesn’t have any time in season 2 to figure that out offscreen, he’s on a mission the whole time. It is a plot hole.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Does Din know that Gideon dies? How does Luke know Vader’s alive in Empire Strikes Back? His ship was shot down in space…

You all keep saying plot hole, it’s not a plot hole.

The difference with ESB is that there was a time skip of 3 years in between ANH and that movie, by which point Luke would have has plenty of time to figure out Vader was alive. Mando doesn’t have any time in season 2 to figure that out offscreen, he’s on a mission the whole time. It is a plot hole.

Except we don’t see the entire conversation between Boba, Fennec, and Din as they get on Slave I, fly to Nevarro, then as Cara boards Slave I and they fly to meet Mayfield. There’s plenty of off-screen time to assume a conversation takes place.

Lines in Chapter 15 could also be changed and cut around to “where they took him” instead of saying Gideon by name if it’s THAT big of a deal to you, but it’s something that will easily be assumed and then character development and raising stakes can be preserved.

Our lead character making sacrifices, showing growth from when he refused to do the same action in the previous film’s climax, is a far more important aspect to the story being told, and has more bearing on the primary relationship between Din and Grogu.

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StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Does Din know that Gideon dies? How does Luke know Vader’s alive in Empire Strikes Back? His ship was shot down in space…

You all keep saying plot hole, it’s not a plot hole.

The difference with ESB is that there was a time skip of 3 years in between ANH and that movie, by which point Luke would have has plenty of time to figure out Vader was alive. Mando doesn’t have any time in season 2 to figure that out offscreen, he’s on a mission the whole time. It is a plot hole.

Mando has plenty of time. It would have taken months for Nevarro to rebuild from the Imperial-occupied battlescape it was at the end of Season 1 to the thriving trade hub it is in Season 2. I expect Mando and Grogu had many dead-end adventures while seeking other Mandolorian covens: for this alternate movie timeline, we could assume one of those adventures is where he discovers Gideon’s survival.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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I guess you guys might be right. But if we’re gonna cut that episode, we should at least update the first movie to have the clip of Gideon surviving be before the credits. Post credits scenes, like in Marvel movies, are typically reserved for things that will be shown again later. If there’s no in-story reveal that Gideon is alive, it just becomes weird. He’s dead, then suddenly he isn’t.

So it’s a choice of either bringing the scene of Gideon’s survival back into its original spot, or including Chapter 12. If Chapter 12 is really as non-essential as you guys say it is, I’d vote for the former option.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Does Din know that Gideon dies? How does Luke know Vader’s alive in Empire Strikes Back? His ship was shot down in space…

You all keep saying plot hole, it’s not a plot hole.

The difference with ESB is that there was a time skip of 3 years in between ANH and that movie, by which point Luke would have has plenty of time to figure out Vader was alive. Mando doesn’t have any time in season 2 to figure that out offscreen, he’s on a mission the whole time. It is a plot hole.

Except we don’t see the entire conversation between Boba, Fennec, and Din as they get on Slave I, fly to Nevarro, then as Cara boards Slave I and they fly to meet Mayfield. There’s plenty of off-screen time to assume a conversation takes place.

Lines in Chapter 15 could also be changed and cut around to “where they took him” instead of saying Gideon by name if it’s THAT big of a deal to you, but it’s something that will easily be assumed and then character development and raising stakes can be preserved.

Our lead character making sacrifices, showing growth from when he refused to do the same action in the previous film’s climax, is a far more important aspect to the story being told, and has more bearing on the primary relationship between Din and Grogu.

Fair point. But as long as I didn’t get rusty in storytelling and direction, you should never let the audience assume everything vital to a story and therefore show it (either by words or image). So it’s up to smudger how he intends to tell his story.

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CMMAP said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Does Din know that Gideon dies? How does Luke know Vader’s alive in Empire Strikes Back? His ship was shot down in space…

You all keep saying plot hole, it’s not a plot hole.

The difference with ESB is that there was a time skip of 3 years in between ANH and that movie, by which point Luke would have has plenty of time to figure out Vader was alive. Mando doesn’t have any time in season 2 to figure that out offscreen, he’s on a mission the whole time. It is a plot hole.

Except we don’t see the entire conversation between Boba, Fennec, and Din as they get on Slave I, fly to Nevarro, then as Cara boards Slave I and they fly to meet Mayfield. There’s plenty of off-screen time to assume a conversation takes place.

Lines in Chapter 15 could also be changed and cut around to “where they took him” instead of saying Gideon by name if it’s THAT big of a deal to you, but it’s something that will easily be assumed and then character development and raising stakes can be preserved.

Our lead character making sacrifices, showing growth from when he refused to do the same action in the previous film’s climax, is a far more important aspect to the story being told, and has more bearing on the primary relationship between Din and Grogu.

Fair point. But as long as I didn’t get rusty in storytelling and direction, you should never let the audience assume everything vital to a story and therefore show it (either by words or image).

I understand that, but no matter what: the audience will have seen Gideon’s survival beforehand. Between the scene in The Heiress (talking to Imperial officers) and his scene at the end of The Siege (which could still be connected to the repair seen in The Heiress). This is all assuming that the scene at the end of Redemption isn’t restored to the first film. The scene in the Imperial base doesn’t communicate anything to the audience that won’t be revealed in greater detail later, more than likely this week.

And I may have mis-remembered in Chapter 12, but I thought I remembered Din trying to contradict Bo-Katan and say that Gideon was dead… that would be after her telling him he’s not dead, right? Or by saying something that informs him that Gideon is alive, which is why he attempts to contradict her. I dunno, maybe that’s in The Siege somewhere. It doesn’t really matter though, as that’s not a significant detail. Cut him thinking Gideon is dead and then the problem is solved.

It’s really simple to remove the one line Din has of assuming Gideon’s death. Otherwise, there’s no reason for him to assume that a man he already thought impossibly escaped death did so again in a means we’ve seen at least four times on screen now (surviving a TIE crash; ANH, TFA, TRoS, Ch8).

I’ve always advocated for adding Gideon’s survival, but Smudger has been pretty clear he doesn’t want to. I do think his character development in The Believer is significant enough for inclusion. It’s the low point before Act 3, showing how much Din has changed and grown, and how much he cares for Grogu.

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StarkillerAG said:

I guess you guys might be right. But if we’re gonna cut that episode, we should at least update the first movie to have the clip of Gideon surviving be before the credits. >

We?

It’s still Smudger’s cut!
I think his edit of season 1 is excellent.
Suggestions and ideas are always welcome and can be very helpful.
But here are some who made demands in a way (especially JackRyan) which are in my opinion quite impertinent!
He should first do better, or simply create his own edit.

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I don’t mean to be “impertinent”, just giving story reasons for my opinions. Yes, I can make my own cut, and might. I didn’t want to “rip off” Smudger’s idea, and wanted to be supportive of his project and do my best to help him make it the best it can be.

But I never claimed ownership of this cut. I thought it was a discussion forum where suggestions and feedback were welcome? I guess it’s not?

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JakeRyan17 said:

I don’t mean to be “impertinent”, just giving story reasons for my opinions. Yes, I can make my own cut, and might. I didn’t want to “rip off” Smudger’s idea, and wanted to be supportive of his project and do my best to help him make it the best it can be.

But I never claimed ownership of this cut. I thought it was a discussion forum where suggestions and feedback were welcome? I guess it’s not?

Yes, as I said before ideas and suggestions are always welcome and certainly helpful.
But (imo) not in that demanding tone.
I already noticed this in the other thread and I would like to say I do not like this way.

That’s all.

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BandobrasTuk said:

StarkillerAG said:

I guess you guys might be right. But if we’re gonna cut that episode, we should at least update the first movie to have the clip of Gideon surviving be before the credits. >

We?

It’s still Smudger’s cut!
I think his edit of season 1 is excellent.
Suggestions and ideas are always welcome and can be very helpful.
But here are some who made demands in a way (especially JackRyan) which are in my opinion quite impertinent!
He should first do better, or simply create his own edit.

Can we please not do the “I’d like to see you do better” thing? It feels kind of petty, especially for an edit where the editor has been welcoming outside feedback. The planning for this edit has been very much a collaborative work, hence why I used “we.”

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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BandobrasTuk said:

JakeRyan17 said:

I don’t mean to be “impertinent”, just giving story reasons for my opinions. Yes, I can make my own cut, and might. I didn’t want to “rip off” Smudger’s idea, and wanted to be supportive of his project and do my best to help him make it the best it can be.

But I never claimed ownership of this cut. I thought it was a discussion forum where suggestions and feedback were welcome? I guess it’s not?

Yes, as I said before ideas and suggestions are always welcome and certainly helpful.
But (imo) not in that demanding tone.
I already noticed this in the other thread and I would like to say I do not like this way.

That’s all.

Are you demanding I not be “demanding”? I’m confused, are you disrespectfully asking me to be more respectful?

I’m defending my opinions, I’m not demanding. I understand that Smudger is gonna do whatever he wants, but if people are gonna say something is a plot hole when it’s not, or that character development doesn’t matter, I’m gonna bring up a counterpoint. I don’t feel that’s out of line, especially as anything I say gets four people talking about how they disagree with me, but if I dare disagree with them I’m being “impertinent”?

I already pointed out that one of the recommendations (which was one I agree with) was fully shut down by Smudger and not going to happen. I don’t see how calling people names and making assumptions about their tone and intent is any more respectful though.

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Oh boy, everyone hoped for it to happen and they actually did it in the last episode of s2❤️

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Luke and R2D2 are in the Mandolorian!

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I definitely think we need some deepfaking with this final episode.

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Luke was a disappointment for me, but it does bring closure to this part of the story.

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I really love Boba killing Fortuna at the end of Season 2.

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SandMTV said:

I really love Boba killing Fortuna at the end of Season 2.

I feel like that more belongs in The Book of Boba Fett cut down into a film than here though.

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All input is welcome in this thread 😃.

Great last episode. However, that cold open has created a problematic story gap. That’s going to take some creative editing to overcome.

I’m erring on the side of a single movie for season 2. I’m excited to finally start cutting things together knowing how the season finishes!

SandMTV said:

I really love Boba killing Fortuna at the end of Season 2.

Great scene, but that has no part in my plan here. I doubt it’ll even make the cut in my Boba series movie!

Current Project:- Ahsoka EP1: Heir to the Empire https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Smudger9s-Ahsoka-Movie-Series-EP1-Heir-to-the-Empire-WIP/id/107396#1551872