Opinion: Return Of The Jedi is Very Underrated. Do You Agree? — Page 2

“That feels like a lot of nitpicking, and I’m not sure if it’s really valid.”

I’m looking at how from a logical view the throne room scene works. Also, I read and skimmed through the production, including Lucas’s thoughts from The Making of Return of the Jedi. In addition, some snippets from the rough drafts to figure context. I’ve become more convinced over the years that Jedi doesn’t really add up.

Normally, most fans don’t really look at ROTJ’s script. I looked at imdsb’s third draft, which is extremely revealing about the film. Also, I’ve re-watched ROTJ fairly recently. Comparing the film’s dialogue between ROTJ and TESB shows a lot of repetition and borrowing from TESB, or warping the words around lazily, which I’ve seen TROS do recently (TFA: Rey: I’m not going to get you anything. Kylo Ren (cocky): We’ll see.; TROS: Rey: We’ll see.). Luke does a similar thing but with Vader on the bridge scene in multiple parts:

TESB Vader: Now release your anger, only your hatred can destroy me!
TESB Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
ROTJ Luke: Search your feelings, father, you can’t do this. I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate!

TESB Vader: Son… come with me.
ROTJ Luke: Come with me.

The manner in which ROTJ Luke inverts the situation makes ROTJ Luke to be the supposedly more threatening one here, but it also insults TESB Vader at the same time, tbh.

It’s a bit cringy, honestly- it doesn’t feel like Luke is on even ground with Vader; it feels like he’s insulting Vader or forcing him to change, rather than a mutual understanding, which I got better during Luke’s duel with Vader in TESB.

TESB Bespin Cloud City:
Vader: Your destiny lies with me, Skywalker- Obi-Wan knew this to be true.
(Luke tries looking away once, probably for an opening to escape). Luke (looking straight at Vader again, then boldly): No.

Vader: With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.
Luke (still distressed from the loss of his hand): I’ll never join you!

The general lack of emotion from Hamill in the bridge scene (with a questionable reliance on head nodding and shaking to convey non-verbal meaning) is hard for the audience to emphasize with. When David Prowse is doing a better job emoting in the Darth Vader suit than Hamill, something is off.

Luke acting actively by challenging Vader through generally emotionless gestures and cold, indifferent words likely to “punish” Vader (“Then, my father is truly dead.”) is rather inconsistent with Empire’s ending where Luke was scared by Vader nearly killing him and his emotions at the end- denial- fear, horror, acknowledgement of Vader’s relationship with him. Luke was trying to get away from Vader at the end, when Vader cut off his hand, since he was a threat, now Luke is threatening Vader.

“The whole point of that scene is that the audience can’t be sure if Palpatine is telling the truth. He’s manipulative, what he says to one person can be different from what he says to another.”

Unfortunately, from what I have discovered, the ROTJ emperor actually has part of Vader’s idea of “only your hatred can destroy me”- it was discussed during the production of the film, which means that the Emperor is part TESB Vader.

One could assert that the Emperor taught Vader this philosophy, but it wasn’t created until ROTJ’s production.

“He acts like he doesn’t care about Luke, but in reality he’s afraid.”

Can you cite evidence of this? Several-several times in the film- the emperor is unafraid of Luke- dismissing his guards in front of him, taking his lightsaber confidently, calling it a “Jedi weapon”, encouraging Luke to strike him down in order to start the fight (or is convinced that Luke will go to the dark side as soon as it happens), and calling Luke- the threat in Empire- “a young fool”.

“He knows the light is more powerful than the darkness, and tries his best to eliminate the closest threat to his power.”

No, he doesn’t. It’s because the emperor’s petty, and Luke’s a twerp to him.

Lucas:… "But Luke turns off his lazer sword, throws it at the Emperor. “I have controlled my hate;I don’t hate my father. If you are so much on the dark side, you kill me- I dare you.”

“The Emperor gets enraged. The Emperor has a temper. He is a hateful, angry person, and so he says, “You little twerp!” And maybe he does what I had in the other script [either the first rough summary or its revision] where he starts shooting lightning bolts and Luke starts gasping for breath.”- p. 73, The Making of Return of the Jedi

“But he didn’t realize that the closest threat to him was his own second-in-command. Him not realizing that Vader will betray him is a key plot point, it’s not a hole in the story or anything like that.”

It’s a forced plot point, actually. Long before Rian Johnson did his “plot twists”, which mostly do actually have set-ups proceeding the said twists, and these set-ups make sense. I can’t say the same for Return.

Vader’s Motivation, Part II
Lucas: I don’t like the idea of Vader saying to Luke, “Come on over to our side.” Let’s forget what Vader is really trying to do, kill the Emperor.- p. 73, The Making of Return of the Jedi

Vader’s motivation of having Luke join him is almost entirely absent from the film, except for a deleted scene in ROTJ, with Vader calling out to Luke to join him. Even then, Vader doesn’t go into specifics-i.e. kill the Emperor, train with me more, rule the whole galaxy, etc. It is mostly implied “give yourself to the dark side” and is extremely vague.

When Vader has the opportunity to destroy the Emperor early on when Luke decides to full-on attack the Emperor, he chickens out, even though “Luke’s skills are complete?” Luke is now the foreseen threat to the Emperor, and if we are to take the Emperor seriously at his declaration that Luke will complete his training to the dark side; he was only an act away from the dark side (doesn’t make sense, but if it’s true, then Luke is extremely powerful). Vader: “You don’t know the power of the dark side!” Sometimes the comments are leaning towards favoring the Emperor “It is pointless to resist, my son.” [i.e. The emperor’s offer to the dark side] “The emperor is your master now”.

“He claimed that Luke had a lack of vision, but in reality he was the one who couldn’t forsee his own demise.”"
True- fair enough.

I think RotJ is, for the most part, better than a lot of the SW movies that came after it. But I also feel like it’s the one that suffered the most from Lucas’ changes, which contributes to me feeling like it’s the weakest of the original three. The Jedi Rocks dance number, Ghost Hayden and Vader’s added “No!” were awful additions and it leaves me borderline angry whenever I watch them.

I think ROTJ has some minor flaws, but I still think it’s a great movie. It blows me away that some people think TLJ or ROTS are better films. (They’re entitled to their opinion, I just can’t see it)

I really don’t like the term “underrated” (or “overrated”) for that matter.

Calling something underrated without any context is not useful. What is it’s current rating? Are we assigning a numerical value for it? If it’s currently rated 8.1 but I think it’s an 8.2 is it still worth calling it out for being underrated? If we constantly call something underrated does it then become overrated?

I would prefer to just rate the film and keep it at that.

That being said, Return of the Jedi is my second favorite Star Wars film (behind the original) and is in my top ten films of all time.

I certainly have a lot of nostalgia for that film, considering that it was the first Star Wars film I ever saw as far as I recall. However, I’d still say it’s a vast downgrade from Star Wars and Empire. Besides Luke and Vader’s conflict (which is brilliantly concluded), the plot is definitely less intriguing, and that’s partly due to the film’s jarring second act which feels very pointless. I think trying to avoid the maturity that Empire brought was a mistake in the long run – it would have made the trilogy resonate with me a lot more in terms of its impact if it did. I’d say even the acting and the dialogue can be a bit rough at times. Don’t get me wrong, I really like Return of the Jedi, despite these glaring issues. The best way to describe Jedi is that it’s a very flawed, but ultimately powerful conclusion to the trilogy.

ROTJ was my favorite SW film as a child and I’d say it remains in my top 5. I’d still say it’s the weakest of the OT, specially coming after the impressive heights Empire reached, but it’s still one of the most entertaining to rewatch. I concede that the plot doesn’t make too much sense (specially at the beginning) and sadly many characters get sidetracked, but when it’s good, it’s really great. The space battle of Endor remains my favorite and the relationship between Anakin/Vader and Luke really sums up the emotional core of the saga.

It’s… [sighs] fine.

Servii said:

I do think a lot of fans are overly harsh on RotJ.

I think a lot of fans are overly soft on ROTJ, their objectivity clouded by nostalgia.

YMMV

I would say the end is quite bittersweet. Anakin was redeemed but Luke lost his father, Leia the woman who Luke had deep feelings for ended up being his sister. And he all alone is supposed to revive the Jedi Order, despite losing both of his teachers Obi Wan and Yoda. And having no idea what he is supposed to do other than to train Leia as instructed by Yoda. Pass on What you have learned.

Since we know Luke fell to hubris just like Obi Wan and continued the cycle. I don’t see a happy teddy bear picnic ending to the Saga. I’ve seen the Disney trilogy. I know what happens next.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Now the emperor dismisses this, saying that they are safe from the attack (how would Luke even know if he’s telling the truth here?), commands an attack from a button on his large chair that can spin (did Vader’s chair even do this in Empire?), and the DS II starts blowing up… a few large ships. Not everyone, just a few large ships. Wait, the rebels are in a trap with the Empire’s fleet. So, the emperor says that ALL THE REBELS will die. However, from what I remember, the rebels could actually leave, but they were staying around to wait for the rebels to break down the shield barrier on Endor “We’ve gotta give them more time!- Lando”. So, they really weren’t being destroyed entirely- they could just leave (with some casualties) if push came to shove.

This is a good point.

TheBirdwatcher said:

So, Luke decides to defend himself, but the emperor causes him to doubt and says that it’s inevitable, which causes Luke to finally cave in, despite initially having the confidence that ANYTHING that they did here was pointless because THEY WERE ALL going to die.

Why is this inconsistent? He believed that the rebels were going to win but Palpatine has revealed that it was all a trap and the rebels have no chance, so Luke’s confident mindset has been destroyed.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Also, it’s weird that Luke doesn’t believe that the emperor’s lying to him and that he’s witnessing that destruction happening quickly in outer space. Luke’s usually skeptical of other claims- Luke’s destiny being with Vader and the revelation scene with Vader. While he denies that the emperor would convert him, I am surprised that an emotional conflict [death of the rebels] doesn’t come with more doubt or skepticism from Luke.

Palpatine correctly reveals that he knows the rebels plan and shows Luke that the Death Star is operational, how could this be a lie?

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, Luke tries to kill the emperor [the smart thing because the Emperor sent a command to kill the rebels, in doing so, he is preventing more deaths from occurring], and this is blocked by Vader because the fight is pre-arranged. Apparently, according to The Making of ROTJ book, the emperor would have struck Luke down if Vader hadn’t moved. This begs the question though, how is Luke even a threat to the Emperor (which is why the Emperor was afraid of him in Empire and wanted him as an ally- to prevent himself from being destroyed by Luke) if the Emperor would have struck him down, anyway? And then, the Emperor would have been angry with Vader.

It is not made clear in this film or in ESB whether Palpatine sees Luke as a threat in the here-and-now or if he fears that Luke will become more powerful later on. Perhaps this is a problem but it never really bothered me.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, we have Luke going into his stoic (insane) mode where he proclaims his view [or delusion, since his desire to save Vader is only present in Return. He gave no indication of it in Empire, and he didn’t have a conflict over killing his father or not.] that Vader is good still, which is besides the point; Vader can be both incredibly bad AND good. The horror lies in what Vader has already accomplished (killing most of the Jedi, some of the rebels, Biggs, torturing Han and Leia, etc.).

Luke did not know that Vader was his father until the end of Empire (when he was in no position to kill or save him) and this isn’t confirmed by Yoda until this film. It seems pretty obvious to me that Luke, having been conflicted since the end of ESB, decides in this film to save his father. It’s called character development. As for Vader, yes he’s done horrible things but Luke senses in him a potential for redemption.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, Vader and Luke try to seek each other out. Luke trying to keep his emotions in check is ridiculous, if I must be the first person to say this. In Empire, he didn’t care about his feelings, besides avoiding to hate, and he did so maturely by focusing on the right thing- defending his friends. Honestly, it makes Luke look juvenile when he’s supposed to be a man in this film to have him hiding in the background trying to suppress his feelings. Who cares, honestly?

Then Vader gives Luke a reason to hate, except that this reason is actually poor- it’s Leia may somehow turn to the dark side. Not- “I killed your best friend. I killed the rebels. I tortured Han and Leia. I indirectly killed your aunt and uncle. I killed Obi-wan.”. It’s a vague reason, and the only reason that Luke cares is because he believed that Leia was the only hope for the rebels, even though they could have found someone else who was force-sensitive or else to connect with the force. Even in Final Fantasy XII, where there’s a similar scene, it’s revealing that a death occurred from a specific person.

The point here is that Vader is using Luke’s loyalty to his friends against him.

TheBirdwatcher said:

So, Luke looses it, complete with hell imagery from the red lights on the elevator shaft. Luke’s going dark? Okay. I guess we go all in with this, even though Luke threw himself off of a pillar in Empire to prevent himself from joining Vader and the dark side.

These are two different situations so Luke reacts differently to each one.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Also, Luke tosses his lightsaber away, instead of keeping it, because… he was warned by Yoda to beware of the Emperor’s abilities? Also, did Luke not realize that the Emperor could use/sense the force by knowing his emotions?
In addition, Luke’s tense breathing here indicates danger, so Luke KNOWS that he is doing something risky. Why not keep the lightsaber for safety? Is Luke intending to die here? What is going on?

As you yourself pointed out, Luke went into this confrontation prepared to die as long as he could save his father. Safety it not his concern and his lightsaber, at this point, represents a temptation to strike out in anger.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, the Emperor shocks Luke because Luke is a punk (young fool), apparently, and young fools who defy the Emperor must die. If Luke isn’t that powerful (by rejecting the dark side) why kill Luke, though? Couldn’t you just leave the guy alone? If he’s of not much help by not being of the dark side according to your perspective, why even kill him? If you were confident in DS II destroying ALL OF THE REBEL ALLIANCE, why is Luke even a concern to you?

I think the Emperor is just being sadistic at this point and, again, I assume that he view Luke as a potential future threat.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, Luke begs for Vader to save him (ala begging Obi-wan to save him in Empire). Luke, you made your stand to defy the Emperor, you threw away your lightsaber, did you not expect the Emperor to retaliate or at least send in some guards to hurt you? Why even make your stand (to die) if you’re going to beg Vader to save you?

Luke’s whole motivation in this scene is to save his fathers soul. It’s why he gave himself up in the first place.

TheBirdwatcher said:

The general lack of emotion from Hamill in the bridge scene (with a questionable reliance on head nodding and shaking to convey non-verbal meaning) is hard for the audience to emphasize with. When David Prowse is doing a better job emoting in the Darth Vader suit than Hamill, something is off.

The lack of emotion is intentional because Luke is trying to suppress his emotions. The dark side is all about giving in to your emotions so it makes sense that Vader is more expressive.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Luke acting actively by challenging Vader through generally emotionless gestures and cold, indifferent words likely to “punish” Vader (“Then, my father is truly dead.”) is rather inconsistent with Empire’s ending where Luke was scared by Vader nearly killing him and his emotions at the end- denial- fear, horror, acknowledgement of Vader’s relationship with him. Luke was trying to get away from Vader at the end, when Vader cut off his hand, since he was a threat, now Luke is threatening Vader.

Luke has clearly grown and changed since ESB as has Vader.

TheBirdwatcher said:

When Vader has the opportunity to destroy the Emperor early on when Luke decides to full-on attack the Emperor, he chickens out, even though “Luke’s skills are complete?” Luke is now the foreseen threat to the Emperor, and if we are to take the Emperor seriously at his declaration that Luke will complete his training to the dark side; he was only an act away from the dark side (doesn’t make sense, but if it’s true, then Luke is extremely powerful). Vader: “You don’t know the power of the dark side!” Sometimes the comments are leaning towards favoring the Emperor “It is pointless to resist, my son.” [i.e. The emperor’s offer to the dark side] “The emperor is your master now”.

Vader no longer wants to rule the galaxy with Luke and/or he doesn’t believe they can other-throw the Emperor any more. It seems likely that finding his son, along with Luke’s continual refusal to join him, has rekindled Anakin’s humanity in some way. The fact that the emperor foresaw (seemingly) the events which brought he and Luke to this juncture seems to preclude the possibility that he can be defeated, at least at this moment.