I agree with AniStar. If anything, Kathleen probably thinks of the prequels as an old shame, given how much she tried to ignore them in the first few years of Disney owning Star Wars.
I don’t think it’s ignoring the prequels so much as a producer looking at what the market is requesting and trying to deliver that. That sums up both of Abrams’ films, which both felt acutely reactionary to the films that preceded them (the prequels and The Last Jedi respectively).
Definitely. The prequel fandom didn’t really form until early/mid 2017, until then Lucasfilm ignored them because the Star Wars fandom at large did too.
Reading R + L ≠ J theories
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment that the Prequel ignoring is just catering to what they think will sell.
Our fandom gets a little too passionate and vocal… too much when it’s negative. Lucasfilm hears all of it, all of the time. There’s literally someone who scavenges through the internet to collect fanart and sent it to employees every week. Not much has changed at Lucasfilm pre/post Disney, even though it may seem like it.
Everyone working there is trying to make people happy, but the more they focus on the torrent of complaints, the less they’re able to achieve that.
It would be nice to have Finn’s goal after his escape in TFA be to inform the resistance of the existance of Star-killer base. After all, he mopped it’s floors and…somehow… Knew its weak spot.
Peace is a lie
There is only passion…
It would be nice to have Finn’s goal after his escape in TFA be to inform the resistance of the existance of Star-killer base. After all, he mopped it’s floors and…somehow… Knew its weak spot.
The hardest scene to re-edit would be at Max’s castle on Takodana. His motivation in that scene is to escape the war.
The Last Jedi wouldn’t need much adjustment, as he believes the war lost at the beginning of the film.
StarkillerAG said:
But Yoda was only a joke for one scene in ESB, and he was intentionally acting silly to test Luke’s patience. It wasn’t his entire character for the whole movie, like slapstick Hux in TLJ.I realized what was so “off” about TLJ’s tone: it felt like the prequels–specifically, Phantom Menace.
I agree TLJ has a different tone than the OT and the rest of the ST, and it’s a fact Rian’s a bigger prequel fan than anyone except maybe Kathleen Kennedy, but I wouldn’t really say it’s similar to TPM or either of the two prequels.
I was specifically referring to the forced humor of TLJ, which is why I said it’s most like Phantom. And even Lucas knew better than to ruin EVERY serious moment with a Jar Jar joke. An example is Jar Jar acting silly at Shmi’s dinner table with his Yoshi tongue, Qui-Gon then ends the nonsense, allowing Anakin and Shmi having a serious dialogue exchange about the dangerous Pod Racing uninterrupted. TLJ, on the other hand, has serious moments, like Luke meeting Rey, broken by little quips. Their serious first talk: “Where are you frommmm…no one’s from nowhereeee…OK FINE THAT IS NOWHERE. Ahem, serious mode…whhhy are you here…?”
It’s like…anime. I like anime, but it’s horrendously rife with “serious moment…then you MUST break the tension with sight gag/dialogue.” I’m betting Rian must be a hardcore anime fan.
The best edits I’ve seen of TLJ were those that removed all of those awkward moment-breaking jokes. Anti-Cringe was pretty good, too.
I wonder what would happen if someone edited TLJ the other way, embracing all the comedy and cutting down the seriousness as much as possible.
It’s like…anime. I like anime, but it’s horrendously rife with “serious moment…then you MUST break the tension with sight gag/dialogue.” I’m betting Rian must be a hardcore anime fan.
Nothing about the humor screams anime to me. If anything, it’s more like live-action blockbusters.
JEDIT: Yes, I obviously mean Marvel films.
It’s like…anime. I like anime, but it’s horrendously rife with “serious moment…then you MUST break the tension with sight gag/dialogue.” I’m betting Rian must be a hardcore anime fan.
I found the humor in TLJ more akin to the one present in some Marvel movies. The MCU entries are full of bathos and comic moments that break the mood of serious or dramatic scenes (Thor Ragnarok comes to mind).
It’s like…anime. I like anime, but it’s horrendously rife with “serious moment…then you MUST break the tension with sight gag/dialogue.” I’m betting Rian must be a hardcore anime fan.
Nothing about the humor screams anime to me. If anything, it’s more like live-action blockbusters.
Yeah, none of TLJ’s humor reminds me of any anime I have watched. The humor is much more in the style of Marvel movies, most notably Age of Ultron and Thor Ragnarok. Those movies felt almost like comedies to me.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
Not much has changed at Lucasfilm pre/post Disney, even though it may seem like it.
Most of the people who worked on the ST also worked on the PT. It’s half the reason the ST was made, and probably 100% of the reason Star Wars was sold to Disney, so that they’d still have jobs after Lucas retired.
It’s like…anime. I like anime, but it’s horrendously rife with “serious moment…then you MUST break the tension with sight gag/dialogue.” I’m betting Rian must be a hardcore anime fan.
I found the humor in TLJ more akin to the one present in some Marvel movies. The MCU entries are full of bathos and comic moments that break the mood of serious or dramatic scenes (Thor Ragnarok comes to mind).
TLJ, Marvel, and anime all have bathos, but they all use it in different ways, and in different amounts.
Reading R + L ≠ J theories
Yes, the Marvel comparison is apt as well, but perhaps I wasn’t too clear when the reference to anime. Rian’s approach was very “every serious moment MUST be broken by a joke. Can’t let things get TOO serious for the kids!”
Think like how Dragonball has violent life or death fights…and then cut to a sight/dialogue gag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwQIs9jNmL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OfwZ5L8B0
For example, when Snoke bonks Rey on the head, I remember several people burst out laughing. That’s the kind of uneven bathos that is anime-like: is that supposed to be a serious scene or a joke scene? Is it scary and unnerving that Snoke is torturing her in mid air? Or is it “don’t take this too seriously” like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrUVOYpuEk
Don’t get me wrong, either, TROS had similar problems (not as many, but similar) being unsure whether it wanted a serious moment or not. A good example is how Rey’s being tortured to death by Palpatine of the climax of 3 (or 9?) films…and we cut to Ben Solo’s one line: “Ow.”
I just think those moments, with the exception of the mama joke at the beginning, work really well. Snoke is toying with Rey, it’s a serious scene for Rey but not for Snoke. He’s amused.
I feel like most of the humour in The Last Jedi functions that way.
Yeah, I agree. I’ve felt like making a less-bathos cut of TLJ, but I wouldn’t cut out all that much. I might not even cut out the lightsaber toss, they have a purpose.
Where Marvel humor seems to only be there out of self consciousness of the dumber aspects of the superhero genre, TLJ’s bathos serves a worthwhile purpose. I think Rian Johnson went too far in a lot of places, but especially after watching his commentary I know what he was going for.
Reading R + L ≠ J theories
For the saber toss, I remember there was a much more dramatic take of that from the documentary. It seamed to really fit with the TFA ending. The issue was the string holding the saber being visible, and that Luke’s hand was pre-CG.
I think a combination of the the footage here, the original, and the early teaser, would make for a more serious and dramatic version of the scene.
https://youtu.be/v6AJp5VLCdI (0:21)
Peace is a lie
There is only passion…
The change I’d start with would be color correct the scene to match the ending of TFA, and if keeping the saber toss (BTS footage or otherwise) re-arrange the score so the music swells after Luke throws it (like in poppasketti’s edit).
https://youtu.be/6Lv2Fh64Cfo
How to fix Snoke in the ST| by AT-AT Chat
What do you guys think? I really like the idea of having Snoke turn off a Hologram of Palpatine when Kylo and Rey arrive.
Peace is a lie
There is only passion…
https://youtu.be/6Lv2Fh64Cfo
How to fix Snoke in the ST| by AT-AT Chat
I just watched that too. We don’t have the dialogue or close up shots necessary to make his changes.
I tried to achieve similar things by adjusting Snoke’s line in TFA, moving Kylo’s trip to Exegol from TROS to TFA, removing the line about killing Snoke, adding Palpatine’s message from Fortnite to TLJ between the Resistance not being able to contact allies and Snoke’s arrival, and having Palpatine telepathically communicate that Kylo is weak like his parents when he fails to stop Rey and the Resistance’s escape from Crait.
Snoke & Hux:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x6D30tDtGy9CvefkYC6iPZ0xvgZericq/view?usp=sharing
Kylo to Exegol in TFA:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rARUzDyLV0hM6eQX4m5U7MkG7AEWxRmU/view?usp=sharing
Palpatine’s message:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tUe4Nz4dKptm5UzcBu2QhX9N9FuaISoa/view?usp=sharing
Palpatine & Kylo on Crait:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s-thAiSISTEYqjn0oiyRuoWgdiBScyZ-/view?usp=sharing
I still don’t think introducing Palpatine so early really works, JakeRyan. It raises the uncomfortable question of why Palpatine’s name is never spoken during the entire runtime of TLJ, even among the First Order. It feels too much like a fan edit, and not enough like something intended by the filmmakers.
My suggestion for connecting Palpatine to the first two movies would be just adding subtle hints, like Hal did in his edits. He did a great job adding teases of Palpatine without making it too obvious. Then, you could include Kylo meeting Palpatine at the very end of TLJ, as a “one year later” flash forward. It would be a nice sequel hook to get people excited for the next movie, and it would allow for Palpatine to be introduced earlier without feeling weird.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.
If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.
Alternatively, I would like to see if you could have Palpatine in TROS, “My boy, I trained Snoke.”
The idea that Snoke was just another apprentice of Palpatine, like Maul, Dooku or Vader before him would make the Snoke-Palpatine connection a lot simpler than Palpatine saying he made him. Him making Snoke still leaves us with a lot of unanswered questions. Who is Snoke a clone of? Why did he have multiple clones of him? Why did Palpatine puppeteer him in particular? Etc, etc. Did Snoke know he was being controlled by Palpatine, or did Palpatine control him completely?
I also think Snoke having his own agency keeps Kylo killing him feel like a big accomplishment rather than just another test by Palpatine.
Alternatively, I would like to see if you could have Palpatine in TROS, “My boy, I trained Snoke.”
The idea that Snoke was just another apprentice of Palpatine, like Maul, Dooku or Vader before him would make the Snoke-Palpatine connection a lot simpler than Palpatine saying he made him. Him making Snoke still leaves us with a lot of unanswered questions. Who is Snoke a clone of? Why did he have multiple clones of him? Why did Palpatine puppeteer him in particular? Etc, etc. Did Snoke know he was being controlled by Palpatine, or did Palpatine control him completely?
I also think Snoke having his own agency keeps Kylo killing him feel like a big accomplishment rather than just another test by Palpatine.
I like the idea of changing that line.
I guess to me, I just assumed Snoke was completely controlled by Palpatine, like a suit; Snoke doesn’t exist as an autonomous person.
To me, Kylo killing Snoke is still his own act of rebellion rather than a test, as once he’s no longer being watched by his master he tries to recruit an ally.
Then the message acts as Palpatine showing Kylo he’s still in control, intimidating Kylo as much as the Resistance. Basically, Crait has both of his masters return to show that Kylo has not gained the independence he craves.
I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.
If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.
I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.
If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.
I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.
I guess leaving it as late and as subtle doesn’t fix the problem for me. In narrative story structure, the threat and conflict is introduced at the end of the first act. Leaving any of that primary conflict and threat out of The Force Awakens keeps the abrupt about-face change up in the third film, or even at the end of the second.
I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.
If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.
I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.
I guess leaving it as late and as subtle doesn’t fix the problem for me. In narrative story structure, the threat and conflict is introduced at the end of the first act. Leaving any of that primary conflict and threat out of The Force Awakens keeps the abrupt about-face change up in the third film, or even at the end of the second.
That would be the ideal, yes, but I don’t think it’s achievable through editing alone. The writers for the trilogy should have either gone full-on with the “They Saved Palpatine’s Brain” plot, or just stuck with Kylo and the First Order. It’s a problem with the writing, that editing can’t fix. I’m just searching for a way to slightly rectify the problem, while still feeling as natural as possible.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX