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HARMY RULES
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *) — Page 28
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Rob, that's an excellent point. If, like me, you weren't old enough to experience the originals in the theater back in the eighties, this is probably the closest you'll ever get. Even moreso for someone like codester who wasn't even old enough to experience the special editions in '97: a good OT transfer is your holy grail.
[I'd like to say thanks for the donations we've recieved over the past week or two. While I can appreciate the effort as always, I think the money would be put to much better use by the hurricane victims in the southern US. I can't imagine the hell their lives must be right now. I'm going to be taking all we've received these last few weeks and donate it to the Red Cross, plus a little extra out of my own pocket. I would encourage all of you to do the same.]
My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]
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What a jolly one that would be.
<a href="http://www.bynkii.com/archives/2005/05/i_hates_lucas_i.html" title="www.bynkii.com/archives/2005/05/i_hates_lucas_i.html" target="_blank">.Truth.</a><br /><br />"Mmm....starcruiser crash!"
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HARMY RULES
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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The NTSC and PAL versions are different beasts, while the PAL version has the edge in resolution, detail is lost because of the lack of a low noise design PAL laserdisc player being available.
Also, the PAL versions are framed differently, with the PAL version cropped, so missing some picture. That means what is on screen may look better as you have extra resolution and a tighter frame, but it also means you are missing some of the picture completely , which isn't a good thing. If you have a TV with a lot of overscan, then you are really missing out bigtime.
A lot of the problems of watching the NTSC version on Laserdisc, or the current bootlegs, such as missing starfields, awful jaggies, off colours etc. aren't a problem with our transfer so far.
Resolution is a big part of the story, but if some of the detail is lost to noise, then the resolution advantage drops off. If you can process the NTSC version to bring out some of the detail, and you aren't losing detail to noise then you start to get pretty close as far as actual 'usable' resolution goes. Also, we are cleaning up every single frame, so a lot of detail that is lot to dirt and crap is restored also.
If there was an X0 equivalent that could play PAL discs, then I would say the PAL transfer would outshine the NTSC transfer, but with the current PAL players available I'm expecting the result to be different. I've looked at the 925 and 2950 PAL players (both highly regarded) and in nearly every scene for ANH I prefer the X0 output once it has been processed. I haven't looked at Jedi or ESB on PAL yet to compare. There are a couple of scenes that at the moment I prefer on the PAL transfer, but we're just taking that as a challenge to improve those scenes
I wish there was a PAL X0 as it is a hell of a lot less work though when you don't have to worry about IVTC and so on.
So , to answer the question, will the X0 version will outshine the current PAL versions because of the above factors?
We are making sure that we are getting every last drop out of each scene, and it will definately far outshine the current NTSC versions, and at this stage I'm preferring it to the PAL transfers I've scene - especially on colour, framing, look, and in most scenes (surprisingly) on detail.
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“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan
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That's no moon. It's a LaserDisc.
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Originally posted by: Grinder
How much extra work would it be to undo the 3:2 pulldown for an X0 PAL version?
How much extra work would it be to undo the 3:2 pulldown for an X0 PAL version?
That is Step One of any decent preservation project. If Laserman's talking about anything else but (e.g. colour, detail, etc.), then that's already done. There is no point in doing ANYTHING to a given cap until you've IVTC'ed. Even Dr. Gonzo's version of several years ago was IVTC'ed.
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Originally posted by: Moth3r
NTSC to PAL conversion is normally not necessary, as the vast majority of modern players/displays sold in Europe are NTSC compatible (or at least convert to PAL-60).
NTSC to PAL conversion is normally not necessary, as the vast majority of modern players/displays sold in Europe are NTSC compatible (or at least convert to PAL-60).
Yes, but then you still have 3:2 pulldown right?
That's no moon. It's a LaserDisc.
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Three women were sitting around talking about their husbands' performance as a lover.
The first woman says "My Husband works as a marriage counselor. He always buys me flowers and candy before we make love. I like that."
The second woman says, "My husband is a motorcycle mechanic. He likes to play rough and slaps me around sometimes. I kinda like that."
The third woman just shakes her head and says, "My husband works for Microsoft. He just sits on the edge of the bed and tells me how great it's going to be when I get it."
***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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Also, they have mentioned that the audio hasn't even been discussed yet. Couple that with "raw" footage and you've got a product that won't represent the project very well.
So I guess we'll just have to hear from the team on the subject...
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As for removing the 3:2 pulldown (i.e. Inverse telecine or IVTC) it was the first thing that was done to bring it back to the original 24 progressive frames. It was a bitch too, as there are errors on the laserdisc in some scenes where the 3:2 gets out of whack, so has to be manually adjusted.
We haven't even *looked* at the audio side of things at the moment, so no comments there.
As for the NTSC version having more detail, and us 'conquering' NTSC and PAL land, well, neither is strictly true. They are just different beasts, and each will have its advantages and disadvantages.
I think some scenes will look subjectively better on a PAL transfer if the person doing it has done all of their homework and has stabilised the footage, cleaned up the frame, done the colour correction right, (say using something like Final cut pro that allows you to do secondaries), and gets the noise reduction/sharpening just right. You do lose more detail to noise in the PAL transfer than the NTSC, but in some scenes the overall detail can be higher on the PAL transfer, in others it isn't.
But anyway they will be different in that the PAL scene will be missing some of the picture, and will run at a different frame rate with the corresponding problem of everyone speaking as if they have had a very mild dose of Helium.
I'd prefer to watch a well done PAL transfer in a PAL country, but most standard DVD players in the states won't play a PAL disc, so if you are in NTSC land, you would probably want to watch an NTSC transfer.
If you are a 'sound' purist, then you will want an NTSC transfer also.
As for the black levels, I think there is a lot of confusion there, and having the black level elevated to grey does not necessarily 'preserve' the 'luminace range' of the laserdiscs. In fact, if there is no 'true black' in your transfer, then you are reducing the 'luminance range' as you called it.
You have to be careful with NTSC not to end up with a doble pedestal, i.e. that if your Source is IRE 7.5 for black, and you don't do your mastering right, when you stick it in a US DVD player, it will apply the uplift to 7.5 IRE again! This leaves you with very grey blacks, and a *reduced* luminance range.
I've measure the black bars on the US definitive edition, and they are (damn close to) 7.5IRE, which means they should be BLACK when played back on an American laserdisc player on an American TV set. Which also means on any transfer they should be black when played back thorugh an Amercian DVD player on an American TV set. Anyhting else means you aren't getting the full range, or a correct looking picture. So in short we will be doing it right, if it should be black, it will be black.
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Originally posted by: Laserman
As for the black levels, I think there is a lot of confusion there, and having the black level elevated to grey does not necessarily 'preserve' the 'luminace range' of the laserdiscs. In fact, if there is no 'true black' in your transfer, then you are reducing the 'luminance range' as you called it.
You have to be careful with NTSC not to end up with a doble pedestal, i.e. that if your Source is IRE 7.5 for black, and you don't do your mastering right, when you stick it in a US DVD player, it will apply the uplift to 7.5 IRE again! This leaves you with very grey blacks, and a *reduced* luminance range.
I've measure the black bars on the US definitive edition, and they are (damn close to) 7.5IRE, which means they should be BLACK when played back on an American laserdisc player on an American TV set. Which also means on any transfer they should be black when played back thorugh an Amercian DVD player on an American TV set. Anyhting else means you aren't getting the full range, or a correct looking picture. So in short we will be doing it right, if it should be black, it will be black.
As for the black levels, I think there is a lot of confusion there, and having the black level elevated to grey does not necessarily 'preserve' the 'luminace range' of the laserdiscs. In fact, if there is no 'true black' in your transfer, then you are reducing the 'luminance range' as you called it.
You have to be careful with NTSC not to end up with a doble pedestal, i.e. that if your Source is IRE 7.5 for black, and you don't do your mastering right, when you stick it in a US DVD player, it will apply the uplift to 7.5 IRE again! This leaves you with very grey blacks, and a *reduced* luminance range.
I've measure the black bars on the US definitive edition, and they are (damn close to) 7.5IRE, which means they should be BLACK when played back on an American laserdisc player on an American TV set. Which also means on any transfer they should be black when played back thorugh an Amercian DVD player on an American TV set. Anyhting else means you aren't getting the full range, or a correct looking picture. So in short we will be doing it right, if it should be black, it will be black.
I'm glad someone has finally explained this! I've often been confused when people would mention correcting the black would reduce detail, never made any sense at all to me. This flawed fix of the original flaw now makes that make sense.
Ooh, a laserdisc. The Cheat's playin' something on a laserdisc.
Everything is better on a laserdisc. Whatever happened to the laserdisc? Laserdisc!
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Well, I've already got a straight digital copy of the LD PCM track, which is about as good as it gets, and I used that to create a pretty good 5.1 track which received a lot of compliments. What else is there to discuss? The audio part is pretty darned easy to do.
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>
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As for removing the 3:2 pulldown (i.e. Inverse telecine or IVTC) it was the first thing that was done to bring it back to the original 24 progressive frames. It was a bitch too, as there are errors on the laserdisc in some scenes where the 3:2 gets out of whack, so has to be manually adjusted.
Ugh, I know exactly what you're talking about. I especially enjoyed the bit in Jedi when the Emperor is shocking Luke and the 3:2 switches back and forth twice in about 5 seconds. I had to re-encode an entire disc because of that one...
Sounds like you guys are doing a heckuvalot of extra work on these. Here's hoping I can dump even my own version in not-too-distant-future...
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I'll have to double check that scene in Jedi now to make sure we got them all.
I think people will want both an NTSC and a PAL version in their arenals. The main aim with the NTSC ones is that the result is better than the NTSC laserdiscs themselves, so that the LDs can finally become redundant as an 'archival' version of the OT.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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BTW, on black levels there are multiple ways to tackle it. I just re-read my previous explanation, and it isn't very clear.
The problem is American NTSC analogue devices, wether VHS, S-VHS, Hi 8 or Laserdisc, outputs black at 7.5 IRE.
i.e. the black output from them isn't at a voltage of Zero (unlike PAL and even Japanese NTSC) but is in fact 0.0536V (If it is correct, in the real world various players vary in their accuracy)
If you plug your laserdisc player into a video capture card that expects 0IRE then you might need to use a proc amp to set the analogue output to 0 IRE. If you don't do this, when you move from analog into digital, then your DVD's will look extremely washed out. You will get the same problem with most DV camcorders as well if you are getting your laserdisc to digital by plugging it into your camcorder.
You can get a reasonable proc amp here. http://www.signvideo.com/single_dual_proc-amp_video-processor.htm
Programs like Final Cut Pro have a 'virtual proc amp' built into the software.
Some capture cards can be set to expect an Input IRE of 7.5 for black, so set it if you need to.
I can post some waveforms from the scope of PAL vs NTSC colourbars, with and withour pedestal if anyone is interested, but basically just remember this.
If you get it wrong when you take an analogue source and make a US NTSC DVD, your blacks get raised twice by the time you see the picture on your telly, and the picture will not have *any* true blacks, will look washed out, will have a compressed range, and you will have to adjust your set away from what it *should* be just to get a decent black level.
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Originally posted by: Laserman
...
Also, the PAL versions are framed differently, with the PAL version cropped, so missing some picture. That means what is on screen may look better as you have extra resolution and a tighter frame, but it also means you are missing some of the picture completely , which isn't a good thing. If you have a TV with a lot of overscan, then you are really missing out bigtime. I think you may be overstating this issue. Decisions on framing were made by the telecine operators who did each transfer, just like if you saw the original films in the cinema, then the amount of picture you would have seen was based on the masking decisions made by the projectionist. "Missing out bigtime" would be comparable to the amount of image lost in watching a P&S transfer on a 4:3 TV!
Originally posted by: Laserman
...
If there was an X0 equivalent that could play PAL discs, then I would say the PAL transfer would outshine the NTSC transfer, but with the current PAL players available I'm expecting the result to be different. I've looked at the 925 and 2950 PAL players (both highly regarded) and in nearly every scene for ANH I prefer the X0 output once it has been processed.
If only......
Also, the PAL versions are framed differently, with the PAL version cropped, so missing some picture. That means what is on screen may look better as you have extra resolution and a tighter frame, but it also means you are missing some of the picture completely , which isn't a good thing. If you have a TV with a lot of overscan, then you are really missing out bigtime. I think you may be overstating this issue. Decisions on framing were made by the telecine operators who did each transfer, just like if you saw the original films in the cinema, then the amount of picture you would have seen was based on the masking decisions made by the projectionist. "Missing out bigtime" would be comparable to the amount of image lost in watching a P&S transfer on a 4:3 TV!
Originally posted by: Laserman
...
If there was an X0 equivalent that could play PAL discs, then I would say the PAL transfer would outshine the NTSC transfer, but with the current PAL players available I'm expecting the result to be different. I've looked at the 925 and 2950 PAL players (both highly regarded) and in nearly every scene for ANH I prefer the X0 output once it has been processed.
Do you know anything about the Theta Voyager? I can't find much information, but from what I've read, it's an OEM combi player based on a Pioneer drive, from a small videophile manufacturer in the US. See here. Apparently it plays PAL laserdiscs and DVDs. LD performance is not up to the standard of the Japanese high-end X0/X9 players, but is comparable to the US high-end CLD-97. Still, even if I could find one for sale, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to afford it...
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Originally posted by: Laserman
But anyway they will be different in that the PAL scene will be missing some of the picture, and will run at a different frame rate with the corresponding problem of everyone speaking as if they have had a very mild dose of Helium.
The audio on the UK VHS (and also I assume on the French Laserdisc boxed set with English audio) has been sped up with the pitch preserved, so the helium effect is no present. But anyway they will be different in that the PAL scene will be missing some of the picture, and will run at a different frame rate with the corresponding problem of everyone speaking as if they have had a very mild dose of Helium.
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