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Unusual Sequel Trilogy Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 44

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

I actually felt like there wasn’t enough world building. There was way too much exposition, but exposition and world building aren’t the same thing. World building fleshes out the movie’s universe, giving it the proper context. Exposition is an inconvenience, something the movie just needs to get out of the way.

In my opinion, a proper example of world building would be explaining the whole thing with Palpatine’s return. “Secrets only the Sith knew” isn’t a sufficient explanation. We need to know the broad strokes of how he returned, and why he can’t return again. Otherwise, it just feels like Palpatine can come back any time he wants.

That’s not quite right. Explanations aren’t necessarily world building. In fact having someone spell out how Palpatine survived is exactly what I’d call exposition, which is something that TROS tries to avoid as much as reasonably can (which is only so much).

For example, the First Order captain’s medallion is world building. Zorii saying “free passage through any blockade, landing privileges” that’s exposition.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

I actually felt like there wasn’t enough world building. There was way too much exposition, but exposition and world building aren’t the same thing. World building fleshes out the movie’s universe, giving it the proper context. Exposition is an inconvenience, something the movie just needs to get out of the way.

In my opinion, a proper example of world building would be explaining the whole thing with Palpatine’s return. “Secrets only the Sith knew” isn’t a sufficient explanation. We need to know the broad strokes of how he returned, and why he can’t return again. Otherwise, it just feels like Palpatine can come back any time he wants.

That’s not quite right. Explanations aren’t necessarily world building. In fact having someone spell out how Palpatine survived is exactly what I’d call exposition, which is something that TROS tries to avoid as much as reasonably can (which is only so much).

For example, the First Order captain’s medallion is world building. Zorii saying “free passage through any blockade, landing privileges” that’s exposition.

I somewhat agree. I think describing how Palpatine survived would be exposition, but the way he goes about it is worldbuilding for the Sith. They are forever intertwined.

In that essence, “exposition” isn’t bad either. I think we can all agree understanding why Palpatine returns is important.

For me the biggest issue with the ST’s “worldbuilding” or “exposition” or whatever is it doesn’t add logically to the earlier movies. When you jump from Ep 1 to 2, you are going in expecting Obi-Wan to be training a now Jedi Anakin. Ep 2 to 3 you expect the Clone Wars from how things last ended. 3 to 4 you expect the Empire to be in charge.

The jump from 6 to 7 is so frankly confusing because we expected to see Luke with a Jedi Order and the New Republic established. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to have tons of stuff go down in 30 years, but in terms of storytelling it feels strange. “Return of the Jedi” also is a very strange title when you think about it nowadays. With TLJ, it’s more a case of them having some sort of chance to fix these issues, but they doubled down instead. So it’s not really RJ’s fault, moreso him following Abram’s suit.

The closet comparison I can make is if Revenge of the Sith came out first, and then everyone got hyped for the sequel 19 years later… only to find the Empire was destroyed just a year after ROTS, Anakin was redeemed off-screen and is now missing, and Luke is training to be a Jedi like the entire PT never happened.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Arguably ROTS would have been a lot more interesting if they didn’t line things up to a T for ANH. The approach with TFA is clearly trying to replicate that sort of en medias res feeling you get from being dropped into the world with the original film. It’s a different approach than what some were expecting but I think it’s a valid one.

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OutboundFlight said:

I somewhat agree. I think describing how Palpatine survived would be exposition, but the way he goes about it is worldbuilding for the Sith. They are forever intertwined.

In that essence, “exposition” isn’t bad either. I think we can all agree understanding why Palpatine returns is important.

For me the biggest issue with the ST’s “worldbuilding” or “exposition” or whatever is it doesn’t add logically to the earlier movies. When you jump from Ep 1 to 2, you are going in expecting Obi-Wan to be training a now Jedi Anakin. Ep 2 to 3 you expect the Clone Wars from how things last ended. 3 to 4 you expect the Empire to be in charge.

The jump from 6 to 7 is so frankly confusing because we expected to see Luke with a Jedi Order and the New Republic established. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to have tons of stuff go down in 30 years, but in terms of storytelling it feels strange. “Return of the Jedi” also is a very strange title when you think about it nowadays. With TLJ, it’s more a case of them having some sort of chance to fix these issues, but they doubled down instead. So it’s not really RJ’s fault, moreso him following Abram’s suit.

The closet comparison I can make is if Revenge of the Sith came out first, and then everyone got hyped for the sequel 19 years later… only to find the Empire was destroyed just a year after ROTS, Anakin was redeemed off-screen and is now missing, and Luke is training to be a Jedi like the entire PT never happened.

That’s a really good take. It’s why the sequel trilogy felt so disjointed. It wanted to be both a fresh start for Disney but also wanted to play it safe and have the nostalgic lore of the originals.

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

ROS needed to be the second film–it clearly was a mishmash of his 2 and 3rd film ideas scribbled on one page, since ROS introduced so many extraneous characters…in the finale? If the 2nd film had at least followed naturally with the 1st, the new characters introduced in 2 would have natural storyarcs flow into 3, like Lando from Empire to Lando the hero in Jedi.

There may be a way to do an edit that shaves off all the extra pointless characters and mixes TLJ and ROS into a more coherent storyline.

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thebluefrog said:

OutboundFlight said:

I somewhat agree. I think describing how Palpatine survived would be exposition, but the way he goes about it is worldbuilding for the Sith. They are forever intertwined.

In that essence, “exposition” isn’t bad either. I think we can all agree understanding why Palpatine returns is important.

For me the biggest issue with the ST’s “worldbuilding” or “exposition” or whatever is it doesn’t add logically to the earlier movies. When you jump from Ep 1 to 2, you are going in expecting Obi-Wan to be training a now Jedi Anakin. Ep 2 to 3 you expect the Clone Wars from how things last ended. 3 to 4 you expect the Empire to be in charge.

The jump from 6 to 7 is so frankly confusing because we expected to see Luke with a Jedi Order and the New Republic established. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to have tons of stuff go down in 30 years, but in terms of storytelling it feels strange. “Return of the Jedi” also is a very strange title when you think about it nowadays. With TLJ, it’s more a case of them having some sort of chance to fix these issues, but they doubled down instead. So it’s not really RJ’s fault, moreso him following Abram’s suit.

The closet comparison I can make is if Revenge of the Sith came out first, and then everyone got hyped for the sequel 19 years later… only to find the Empire was destroyed just a year after ROTS, Anakin was redeemed off-screen and is now missing, and Luke is training to be a Jedi like the entire PT never happened.

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

Not even remotely true but okay.

ROS needed to be the second film–it clearly was a mishmash of his 2 and 3rd film ideas scribbled on one page, since ROS introduced so many extraneous characters…in the finale? If the 2nd film had at least followed naturally with the 1st, the new characters introduced in 2 would have natural storyarcs flow into 3, like Lando from Empire to Lando the hero in Jedi.

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

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JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

They were dumb questions to begin with.

Rey’s parents was kind of interesting but when you don’t answer it and leave us to think about it for a year, then everyone forms clear ideas on who they think they should be (lucky me my theory was correct (until TRoS)) and get disappointed when the reveal isn’t what they asked for. Would the Vader twist in ESB have had anywhere near the same impact if ANH had spent its runtime poking the audience to ask who Luke’s father is? No, because we would’ve seen it coming a mile away, while some fanboys would ramble about how Obi-Wan or Tarkin should’ve been his father instead.

As for everything else, I’d argue it’s less intentional mystery and more Abrams stumbling over his own feet by skipping any kind of backstory. Did you really think Snoke was supposed to be someone we knew? Of course not, because he was just Palpatine 2.0. What Abrams failed to realize was that unlike in ESB, you can’t just introduce the evil ruler of the universe without providing some context. Naturally, people started asking questions about him.

Same goes with the Knights of Ren. From their first appearance in TFA I knew exactly what they’d be and I was right. They were Kylo Ren’s personal extras, with one or two fight scenes, no lightsabers even though they should have them, then they die. What you expected an explanation? You must’ve forgotten who’s making these.

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thebluefrog said:

There may be a way to do an edit that shaves off all the extra pointless characters and mixes TLJ and ROS into a more coherent storyline.

I was actually thinking of a ST edit that removes Snoke! Well - almost. It would trim him down to just a few lines speaking only in Kylo Ren’s head. All appearances and references to him by name be cut. The First Order has no supreme leader, they are just Imperial remnant. Kylo Ren joined the First Order on his own accord and with his obsession with Vader in mind (who’s voice also speaks to him a few times).

Kylo communing with disembodied voices will kind of evolve from film to film- in TFA Kylo Ren will be guided by the mystery voice of Snoke, taunting him about not being as good as Vader. In TLJ, Kylo will still be communing with Snoke, but he will also begin to hear from the voice of Vader a few times, which sends him off to Mustafar in the end (but we don’t go there until the beginning of TROS). Then in TROS he learn the truth that it was Palpatine all along.

Obviously there would be plenty of logistical issues, for example the entire Throne Room scene from TLJ is gone automatically, Rey leaves Luke and then immediately lands on Crait to rescue the team. Those are some pretty important beats in the flow of that movie, so there would be a lot of collateral damage that would need mending.

But overall I think a big change like this, which would force plenty of smaller changes and cuts, could really help to clean up the story without asking the audience to roll their eyes any more than they already are with the official releases.

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Honestly, I really like how Snoke is set up as the Emperor 2.0 but then Kylo goes “fuck this” and offs him halfway through the trilogy. It’s subversive and it works.

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Everyone forgets how much Empire Strikes Back was hated when it came out for that twist we all find iconic now. They complained it went against everything we knew in Star Wars… similar to how people reacted to the Last Jedi.

Last Jedi is the film that adheres closest time the original concept for the sequel trilogy. Abrams’ films just mishmash and reuse ideas from the original trilogy.

As for new characters that were introduced in Rise of Skywalker, the two most prominent were both added to the script for the same reason: to shout “No homo”. Zorri doesn’t serve the plot, and is only there to be a romantic interest from Poe’s past. Jannah is meant to be a romantic interest to replace Rey (for the sake of Reylo shippers) and Rose. And there was no way we could allow Poe and Finn to have a romantic connection despite their chemistry, fans, and even actors’ desire… but it’s good to know there’s a line JJ won’t cross for fan service.

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JakeRyan17 said:

Everyone forgets how much Empire Strikes Back was hated when it came out for that twist we all find iconic now. They complained it went against everything we knew in Star Wars… similar to how people reacted to the Last Jedi.

Is that true? I know people thought Vader was lying at first, but did they really think it was against Star Wars? There had only been one Star Wars movie at that point, so I doubt it.

As for new characters that were introduced in Rise of Skywalker, the two most prominent were both added to the script for the same reason: to shout “No homo”. Zorri doesn’t serve the plot, and is only there to be a romantic interest from Poe’s past. Jannah is meant to be a romantic interest to replace Rey (for the sake of Reylo shippers) and Rose. And there was no way we could allow Poe and Finn to have a romantic connection despite their chemistry, fans, and even actors’ desire… but it’s good to know there’s a line JJ won’t cross for fan service.

I agree with Zorii, which is why I’m planning to either remove or drastically reduce her role in my TROS edit. But was there anything vaguely romantic with Finn and Jannah? I thought their connection was more about both of them being former stormtroopers, so they’re like siblings in a sense. I didn’t get any romantic vibes.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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DominicCobb said:

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

If you read the Artbook for Force Awakens, many ideas from it were used in ROS. For example, Rey sabering an imperial ship, returning to Palpatine’s throne room, the Death Star wreckage underwater, DIO as a variant of BB8’s design, etc.

Samples:
https://i.imgur.com/ioTT9gl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0oPFoji.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D25CcHS.jpg

Anakin Starkiller said:

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

They were dumb questions to begin with.

Rey’s parents was kind of interesting but when you don’t answer it and leave us to think about it for a year, then everyone forms clear ideas on who they think they should be

As for everything else, I’d argue it’s less intentional mystery and more Abrams stumbling over his own feet by skipping any kind of backstory. Did you really think Snoke was supposed to be someone we knew? Of course not, because he was just Palpatine 2.0. What Abrams failed to realize was that unlike in ESB, you can’t just introduce the evil ruler of the universe without providing some context. Naturally, people started asking questions about him.

The fact that you even asked the questions at all shows that TFA’s soft reboot worked-AT THE TIME. Lucasfilm should’ve made JJ come up with actual answers to the seeds he planted to get people interested since he is notorious for not even knowing where he’s going. It’s insane how uncoordinated Disney and Lucasfilm were by allowing both JJ and Rian to just do whatever they wanted with the plotline, crossing out each other’s writing like children.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Honestly, I really like how Snoke is set up as the Emperor 2.0 but then Kylo goes “fuck this” and offs him halfway through the trilogy. It’s subversive and it works.

This, however, is one of the few “answers” that Rian came up with that sort of worked.

JakeRyan17 said:

As for new characters that were introduced in Rise of Skywalker, the two most prominent were both added to the script for the same reason: to shout “No homo”. Zorri doesn’t serve the plot, and is only there to be a romantic interest from Poe’s past. Jannah is meant to be a romantic interest to replace Rey (for the sake of Reylo shippers) and Rose. And there was no way we could allow Poe and Finn to have a romantic connection despite their chemistry, fans, and even actors’ desire… but it’s good to know there’s a line JJ won’t cross for fan service.

That’s what I mean about last minute character additions. They felt like they should’ve been introduced in 2 rather than the finale. As it turns out, none of the characters introduced in 2 or 3 were as interesting as of TFA’s mystery box characters. At the time, Rey, Finn, Kylo were interesting because we didn’t know their histories in the SW universe. They were new concepts that grew out of the old real life lore–a black, rebellious stormtrooper? A new mystery female Jedi? A psychotic “What Anakin was supposed to act like” emotional Sith? These were new, different takes on what people were used to. JJ is a terrible writer but he comes up with good concepts, and people cared about these new 3 leads.

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

This is why I say there may be a way to edit down the extra characters and side plots to focus on what the sequel trilogy’s main focus came down to be: one or two people’s relationship deciding the fate of the galaxy. It’s a bit of a rehash of the OT, and the PT for that matter…but maybe that’s what the sequels should be, to some degree?

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JakeRyan17 said:

As for new characters that were introduced in Rise of Skywalker, the two most prominent were both added to the script for the same reason: to shout “No homo”. Zorri doesn’t serve the plot, and is only there to be a romantic interest from Poe’s past. Jannah is meant to be a romantic interest to replace Rey (for the sake of Reylo shippers) and Rose. And there was no way we could allow Poe and Finn to have a romantic connection despite their chemistry, fans, and even actors’ desire… but it’s good to know there’s a line JJ won’t cross for fan service.

I still don’t see where people get Finn/Poe from. I literally don’t see any romantic tension between them whatsoever.

Besides, I feel like between Rey and Rose, we’ve already met the “no homo” quota for Finn. If anything, Jannah’s there to fulfill the stormtrooper rebellion idea, albeit extremely clumsily.

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

The difference is in TLJ the secondary characters move the character arcs along, whereas in TRoS they’re just kinda there.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

The difference is in TLJ the secondary characters move the character arcs along, whereas in TRoS they’re just kinda there.

In the end, there was no real arc for Finn, so that renders most of TLJ’s characters kinda there. Canto Bight, DJ, Rose…if Finn HAD died in TLJ, it would’ve been at least some form of resolution. The fakeout is basically the end of his character path in the sequels and it’s pretty weak.

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thebluefrog said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

The difference is in TLJ the secondary characters move the character arcs along, whereas in TRoS they’re just kinda there.

In the end, there was no real arc for Finn, so that renders most of TLJ’s characters kinda there. Canto Bight, DJ, Rose…if Finn HAD died in TLJ, it would’ve been at least some form of resolution. The fakeout is basically the end of his character path in the sequels and it’s pretty weak.

Finn had a clear arc in The Last Jedi, and the clever thing was it was inverted from Rose’s even though the same experiences teach them the lessons. Rose and Poe’s arcs are to go from an “at all costs” approach, ready to sacrifice everything, to understanding that sometimes doing whatever it takes isn’t the same thing as doing it at all costs. Finn’s arc goes from a man without a cause, driven by fear, to becoming someone that understands there are things worth fighting for, even being ready to sacrifice himself. A lot of people say his arc is ruined since he doesn’t sacrifice himself, but that’s not true since he was actually ready to sacrifice himself. He was still making that choice.

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thebluefrog said:

DominicCobb said:

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

If you read the Artbook for Force Awakens, many ideas from it were used in ROS. For example, Rey sabering an imperial ship, returning to Palpatine’s throne room, the Death Star wreckage underwater, DIO as a variant of BB8’s design, etc.

Samples:
https://i.imgur.com/ioTT9gl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0oPFoji.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D25CcHS.jpg

I am plenty aware of the TFA art book. But those aren’t “JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3.” They are concepts floated for TFA. Hence my comment, “he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.”

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JakeRyan17 said:

Finn had a clear arc in The Last Jedi, and the clever thing was it was inverted from Rose’s even though the same experiences teach them the lessons. Rose and Poe’s arcs are to go from an “at all costs” approach, ready to sacrifice everything, to understanding that sometimes doing whatever it takes isn’t the same thing as doing it at all costs. Finn’s arc goes from a man without a cause, driven by fear, to becoming someone that understands there are things worth fighting for, even being ready to sacrifice himself. A lot of people say his arc is ruined since he doesn’t sacrifice himself, but that’s not true since he was actually ready to sacrifice himself. He was still making that choice.

In fact, him being stopped from sacrificing himself is part of Rose’s arc, with Poe agreeing with her as part of his. They’ve learned that reckless sacrifice isn’t always the solution.

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More than that, it’s setting up Finn’s arc for the next film (ignored by JJ and co., naturally).

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“not fighting what you hate, but saving what you love”

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Which is? Stormtrooper uprising?

I think they’re referring to Duel of Fates rather than Rise of Skywalker. Or they’re referring to the pre-Trevorrow outline that Johnson wrote. Or both. Basically, there was a great starting point for the character to have an arc in the third film, and instead Abrams made him little more than a shared sidekick.

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JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

The difference is in TLJ the secondary characters move the character arcs along, whereas in TRoS they’re just kinda there.

In the end, there was no real arc for Finn, so that renders most of TLJ’s characters kinda there. Canto Bight, DJ, Rose…if Finn HAD died in TLJ, it would’ve been at least some form of resolution. The fakeout is basically the end of his character path in the sequels and it’s pretty weak.

Finn had a clear arc in The Last Jedi, and the clever thing was it was inverted from Rose’s even though the same experiences teach them the lessons. Rose and Poe’s arcs are to go from an “at all costs” approach, ready to sacrifice everything, to understanding that sometimes doing whatever it takes isn’t the same thing as doing it at all costs. Finn’s arc goes from a man without a cause, driven by fear, to becoming someone that understands there are things worth fighting for, even being ready to sacrifice himself. A lot of people say his arc is ruined since he doesn’t sacrifice himself, but that’s not true since he was actually ready to sacrifice himself. He was still making that choice.

While that’s true the arc could be seen that way, the fact that it had very little impact on the overall narrative renders Finn…boring. If that idea of him leading a Stormtrooper rebellion had come to fruition, that would’ve made his character’s progress throughout all 3 films something to follow on rewatches. As it stands, though, his impact overall is very minimal, despite being hyped as a major character with TFA. The general population don’t remember Finn (or even Poe), they basically remember Rey and Kylo. Even Boyega commented on how badly his character lost relevance as the trilogy progressed. Remember when he grabbed Luke’s saber and the sheer power it radiated as it ignited with his intense face? That scene in every trailer? The guy wanted to kill Kylo right then and there and there was an intensity to the fight. Then he slowly became a joke in TLJ and then full on comedic sidekick in ROS. Couple years and no one’s gonna remember him riding whatever CGI animal in either film.

That being said, it wouldn’t surprise me if the rumors are true and Boyega recants and comes back to Disney as Jedi Finn, especially now that Iger has admitted they screwed up and they need to draw back some disenfranchised fans. That footage will likely be usable with editing.

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I don’t get the idea that he “became a joke in TLJ.” He was a pretty goofy character in TFA and actually dropped most of that and became a lot more serious in TLJ.