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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 151

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it.

I mean, if someone like the movie obviously they’re going to get defensive in regards to criticism. If you like a movie and aren’t willing to defend it, do you even like it?

If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

Couldn’t the same be said in reverse? Why get upset about people liking and defending the movie?

I don’t have a problem with people liking the movie, I have a problem with people dismissing legitimate criticism. Every movie has problems, even some of the best movies ever made. People should learn to acknowledge criticism, not deny it.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it.

I mean, if someone like the movie obviously they’re going to get defensive in regards to criticism. If you like a movie and aren’t willing to defend it, do you even like it?

If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

Couldn’t the same be said in reverse? Why get upset about people liking and defending the movie?

I don’t have a problem with people liking the movie, I have a problem with people dismissing legitimate criticism. Every movie has problems, even some of the best movies ever made. People should learn to acknowledge criticism, not deny it.

I mean, nitpicks and plot holes are some of the most lazy and pointless forms of criticism there is, I wouldn’t stress too much about calling them “legitimate.”

More importantly, it’s all subjective. Just because you think you’ve spotted a legitimate flaw with a work does not mean everyone is forced to agree with you that it is a flaw.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it.

I mean, if someone like the movie obviously they’re going to get defensive in regards to criticism. If you like a movie and aren’t willing to defend it, do you even like it?

If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

Couldn’t the same be said in reverse? Why get upset about people liking and defending the movie?

I don’t have a problem with people liking the movie, I have a problem with people dismissing legitimate criticism. Every movie has problems, even some of the best movies ever made. People should learn to acknowledge criticism, not deny it.

I mean, nitpicks and plot holes are some of the most lazy and pointless forms of criticism there is, I wouldn’t stress too much about calling them “legitimate.”

More importantly, it’s all subjective. Just because you think you’ve spotted a legitimate flaw with a work does not mean everyone is forced to agree with you that it is a flaw.

Okay, I understand your point of view.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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Alright where am I gonna talk about this apparent Colin Trevorrow script leak…

I can’t believe this is real. The timing is just too convenient. It originated from a very specific corner of the internet that has a very specific agenda. Yet now main stream outlets (I say this tepidly) are picking up on and talking about the story.

After being beaten and battered by prequel hate, I promise not to be that to the next generation.

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Considering how quickly Trevorrow appeared to debunk the first time one of his drafts leaked (and then it turned out he was being squirrelly, because the script in question wasn’t his it was Jack Thorne’s, but he WAS supposed to direct it before he left the project) it seems like if this isn’t real, he’ll be piping up pretty soon to say so.

If he doesn’t…

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Didn’t someone come out and say recently that Mortis was never in Trevorrow’s script? That would debunk this, wouldn’t it?

That said, considering the final product I’m fully prepared for Trevorrow’s vision (if it ever does get out) to be better than JJ’s.

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Did they? If so, then yeah, Mr. Burnett got hornswaggled here.

Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trevorrow leaks it eventually.

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Broom Kid said:

Did they? If so, then yeah, Mr. Burnett got hornswaggled here.

Yes, I believe it might have been Jason Ward that tweeted that, if I remember correctly.

Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trevorrow leaks it eventually.

I’d be very surprised. Evicting Trevorrow was probably a delicate situation to begin with. He’s the creative head of the Jurassic films where Kennedy’s husband serves a similar role to her on SW. I doubt Colin would want to get on her or Disney’s bad side.

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I haven’t looked to closely at the summary of this “script,” but I will say it looks like Kylo Ren dies a villain. If that’s true they were right to trash it, even considering the shitshow we ended up with.

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Mocata said:

But is the dagger made of magic Sith nano-metal that can shift with the tides or is it total nonsense

It’s on a moon of Endor that might not have a moon of its own and, if so, no tides.

Or something.

They told me they’d fixed it!

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I don’t know, I think “Kylo Ren is the big bad of the third movie” was just as valid a road to go down as “Kylo Ren gets redeemed” - keep in mind that the concrete notion of “Star Wars is a story of redemption” was more or less retconned into the meta-myth about its creation by a typically unreliable narrator (George Lucas) and the Prequel Trilogy only really exists to canonize that interpretation and sorta/kinda justify Anakin’s actions - which is not a great choice.

Considering Abrams’ predilections for hewing closest to the OT in terms of tone and storytelling notions - the idea of the story being ABOUT redemption doesn’t really track with what the OT story WAS about. Vader was redeemed (ish) in that trilogy, but the series wasn’t ABOUT his redemption. It was about Luke fulfilling his journey to become a Jedi and save the galaxy from tyrannical evil. Vader turning back to the light was more like his own reward for fulfilling that goal, not the overriding thrust of the story up to that point.

So insisting that Kylo Ren HAS to be redeemed because “that’s Star Wars” rings false, to me. Vader didn’t HAVE to be redeemed until somewhere about the halfway point of the last movie in the OT. And really, that option didn’t even exist until Lucas decided that the best possible cliffhanger to keep his trilogy viable would be to spring “I am your father” on the story out of nowhere, with no setup or prior lead-up to that moment in either movie to that point. Vader’s redemption was never the point, but that it still works is a testament to how good at their jobs everyone was at the time they were figuring out how to un-knot all these story elements for a happy ending.

But with Kylo - I feel like there are absolutely ways to tell a Star Wars story where the bad guy doesn’t get redeemed, where his tragic, misguided actions serve as an object lesson on what not to do and how not to be all by themselves, without the absolution of forgiveness and redemption layered over the top of them.

Granted, they didn’t take that route, and that’s fine. I wish they’d executed the redemption WAY better than they did - but I don’t agree that an ending where he’s the bad guy, and dies the bad guy, is fundamentally anti-Star Wars, or invalid on its face, either.

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Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.

The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.

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Nah. Whether redemption was added as a layer in 1983 or not, it’s in Star Wars’s bones now. Moreover, Star Wars is, at its very core, a story about hope and optimism. For the final film in the saga to give up hope in redemption for the last Skywalker is unthinkable. For Han’s death to be in vain, for his and Leia’s child to be killed as a monster when he’s been conflicted for two full movies - it’s an absolute no go for me.

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I don’t think it’s unthinkable at all. And honestly, it’s a good thing for a movie to deal with, in these times specifically.

Also, honestly, “Star Wars’ bones” could do with some breaking and re-setting. The idea that the only path to hope and optimism in a Star Wars story lies in redeeming its villain seems really reductive and narrow, to me. That closes down so many storytelling possibilities that can still be hopeful and optimistic. The trick is not automatically deciding to center so much of your story’s weight and emotional drive on the bad guy at the expense of literally everyone else in the story.

It’s certainly not in Star Wars’ bones to do that. It didn’t happen in the first two films of the series, for example. The two that most people still tend to consider its best entries.

Telling a story about what you do when someone in your family doesn’t want to be saved and won’t let you help is just as powerful, meaningful, and useful to kids as teaching them to have the hope and optimism to try in the first place.

Not every attempt is going to be rewarded. And the lack of reward doesn’t mean everything that came before was in vain.

I still think that was a valid storytelling avenue. They could have gone down that path. If the only reason to close that path is basic dogma, I disagree with it. Star Wars is what it needs to be at the time it’s being made and coming out. It’s a reinterpretation of classic myths. It isn’t one in and of itself. It needs the freedom to riff and vary on different mythological aspects.

Kylo’s redemption shouldn’t have been a fait accompli in the writer’s room, and that it was is probably a big part of why the film is so unsatisfying.

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Broom Kid said:

Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.

The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.

It’s goofy and dumb because the dagger has no reason to exist. The tides are a very minor point. It seems like the wreckage would shift over time, due to a large part of it being flooded, but I suppose the dagger could have been made just a couple decades ago. But I’m still wondering who made it, and why they shaped it to match the skyline of the wreckage. It’s goofy and dumb because if Rey had been standing a bit closer to shore, or a few yards to the right, the dagger would have been useless.

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Broom Kid said:

I don’t think it’s unthinkable at all. And honestly, it’s a good thing for a movie to deal with, in these times specifically.

Also, honestly, “Star Wars’ bones” could do with some breaking and re-setting. The idea that the only path to hope and optimism in a Star Wars story lies in redeeming its villain seems really reductive and narrow, to me. That closes down so many storytelling possibilities that can still be hopeful and optimistic. The trick is not automatically deciding to center so much of your story’s weight and emotional drive on the bad guy at the expense of literally everyone else in the story.

It’s certainly not in Star Wars’ bones to do that. It didn’t happen in the first two films of the series, for example. The two that most people still tend to consider its best entries.

Telling a story about what you do when someone in your family doesn’t want to be saved and won’t let you help is just as powerful, meaningful, and useful to kids as teaching them to have the hope and optimism to try in the first place.

Not every attempt is going to be rewarded. And the lack of reward doesn’t mean everything that came before was in vain.

I still think that was a valid storytelling avenue. They could have gone down that path. If the only reason to close that path is basic dogma, I disagree with it. Star Wars is what it needs to be at the time it’s being made and coming out. It’s a reinterpretation of classic myths. It isn’t one in and of itself. It needs the freedom to riff and vary on different mythological aspects.

Kylo’s redemption shouldn’t have been a fait accompli in the writer’s room, and that it was is probably a big part of why the film is so unsatisfying.

I’m sorry, I will just never agree with this. On a fundamental I believe it would be antithetical to the core heart of the series. I could say more but that is really what it comes down to. Even if the writers didn’t understand much of what made the films in this series good, I’m glad they understood the necessity of this, at the very least.

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I know why it’s goofy and dumb, I’m not arguing that it isn’t. I’m saying that the tides aren’t really one of those reasons. The tides aren’t going to shift what’s essentially a small city that fell out of the sky and embedded itself in the ocean floor. I hadn’t heard that particular complaint before, is all.

I’m sorry, I will just never agree with this. On a fundamental I believe it would be antithetical to the core heart of the series. I could say more but that is really what it comes down to.

“Always with you it cannot be done… you must UNLEARNNN”

Kylo being bad and staying that way isn’t antithetical to Star Wars at all, I don’t feel. The “core heart” of the series isn’t so inextricably tied up in redeeming its worst villains. In fact, it can be easily argued that pursuing that particular theme has led to 5 of its most disappointing entries.

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I think Revenge of the Sith proves both paths are options in a given story, still the series shouldn’t be without a hero exactly or wholly reject redemption as a been there done that, the themes are too universal. For me Star Wars is a lot about trust and agency, so Star Wars should be about good and evil and making the right choices in that way, as long as the characters who fail to do so are represented as having tragically failed, Kylo for example wouldn’t have to be turned good but would need to be tortured deep down to remain bad without breaking the ultimate moral.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Cthulhunicron said:

Broom Kid said:

Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.

The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.

It’s goofy and dumb because the dagger has no reason to exist. The tides are a very minor point. It seems like the wreckage would shift over time, due to a large part of it being flooded, but I suppose the dagger could have been made just a couple decades ago. But I’m still wondering who made it, and why they shaped it to match the skyline of the wreckage. It’s goofy and dumb because if Rey had been standing a bit closer to shore, or a few yards to the right, the dagger would have been useless.

I agree that it’s goofy and dumb, but on my second viewing it became clear that the dude who killed Rey’s parents is the one who forged the knife, Sith runes and weird wreckage skyline and all, and that it was not some ancient artifact that completely coincidentally pointed to a certain spot in a wreck that didn’t exist 35 years ago, which was the impression I got the first time.

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Just read the new alleged Collin Trevorrow script details from RMB’s “part 2” video (for context, RMB is the guy who also “leaked” the proposed Collin script details the other day).

Wow, that script sounds really, REALLY bad! Luke’s ghost disowning Kylo (“you’re no Skywalker”)? Rey becoming blind? Damerey? Rey being rewarded (seemingly) for becoming a “grey” Jedi? Hux stabbing himself with a lightsaber cause he can’t feel the force?

This is all way too dark and/or random for a finale starwars movie. I’m seriously having a hard believing any of this is real.

http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/full-circle-order-new-way-to-watch-star.html?m=1

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I like it very much, something character driven, fresh and new that respects what came before and builds upon it, not the lazy remake we got.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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I like the idea of Hux delving into the occult, maybe as a way to compete with Kylo, but yeah his lightsaber seppuku is pretty dark. Though honestly it is a cooler death than what he got!

The First Order/Resistance stuff seems really fun and interesting, but this movie seems to ignore any connection Rey and Ben had in TLJ whatsoever. I would’ve preferred more redeemed Ben Solo rather than super evil Kylo Ren.

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ChainsawAsh said:

I agree that it’s goofy and dumb, but on my second viewing it became clear that the dude who killed Rey’s parents is the one who forged the knife, Sith runes and weird wreckage skyline and all, and that it was not some ancient artifact that completely coincidentally pointed to a certain spot in a wreck that didn’t exist 35 years ago, which was the impression I got the first time.

I still don’t get why Ochi left the wayfinder in the wreckage. He put all the navigation information into D-O, so we know he had the wayfinder at some point. Maybe he got it from a different wayfinder? I dunno.

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Like TROS He does redeam himself in this script by giving his life essence to Rey at the end of their force battle.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…