Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 136

Lesser said:

I’ve never been in a theater for a Star Wars movie where anybody groaned or laughed at the movie instead of with the movie. There’s always clapping and cheering. Anybody who’s ever left the theater has always come back hurrying. I think most people in an area just coincidentally feel the same way cause people that dislike a movie tend to be in a theater where everybody mocks it or leaves, whereas I tend to have a more positive outlook and only experience good audience reactions.

Buddy, my post literally right above yours says I experienced two completely different audience reactions.

I didn’t say you didn’t or that it doesn’t happen, I was meaning in general, for the most part, from my own experience talking to people. I apologize if it came across neglectful or naive, just sharing my thoughts and can’t always put it into words correctly.

Lesser said:

I didn’t say you didn’t or that it doesn’t happen, I was meaning in general, for the most part, from my own experience talking to people. I apologize if it came across neglectful or naive, just sharing my thoughts and can’t always put it into words correctly.

Fair enough, and I understand the sentiment. Just saying not everything is confirmation bias, and the fact that I saw two screenings the same night (at the same theater) and the reactions were wholly different in both sort of disproves what you’re saying, to some extent.

Broom Kid said:

“Rey, I have to tell you something!”
“What were you going to tell me?”
“I’ll tell you later”
“Hey, what were you going to tell Rey”
“I’m not going to tell you, I’m going to tell her.”
“Oh no, I felt Rey die. I didn’t get to tell her!”
“OH LOOK, REY IS ALIVE. ISN’T THAT NICE. GUESS I’LL NEVER TELL HER WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT WAS LITERALLY SO IMPORTANT IT’S BASICALLY THE ONLY PLOT THREAD I HAVE IN THIS MOVIE”

Canto Bight reads like Upton Sinclair compared to that.

This is too hecking accurate

Just saw it again. I liked it more this time around.

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

But at least ROTJ had some powerful themes at its core, even if everything ended a bit too neatly. TROS essentially redoes this ending only much bigger, and louder, but ultimately much less effective imo.

Yes, ROTJ had the themes but for me this film really does them better. Of course it will only ever be a copy, since ROTJ already happened, but here’s what I loved…

No Death Star. While a fleet of planet-smashing Star Destroyers isn’t the greatest idea in the world, it is infinitely better than DS II.

Rey was actually tempted to turn to the Dark Side for a legitimately compelling reason - give up your soul to save your friends. Luke’s temptation was simply “go on, get mad 'cos that’s bad!”.

Rey’s temptation and how she dealt with it actually had a bearing on the battle. Luke’s scenario on DS II was irrelevant to the war.

I liked the movie in general, but the above really made it for me.

ROTJ is an interesting comparison because both films fucked up in similar ways, and some ways TROS legitimately improved upon what ROTJ was trying to do. Ultimately though I give the edge to ROTJ just because it’s more coherent and nostalgia I guess.

Shopping Maul said:

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

But at least ROTJ had some powerful themes at its core, even if everything ended a bit too neatly. TROS essentially redoes this ending only much bigger, and louder, but ultimately much less effective imo.

Yes, ROTJ had the themes but for me this film really does them better. Of course it will only ever be a copy, since ROTJ already happened, but here’s what I loved…

No Death Star. While a fleet of planet-smashing Star Destroyers isn’t the greatest idea in the world, it is infinitely better than DS II.

Rey was actually tempted to turn to the Dark Side for a legitimately compelling reason - give up your soul to save your friends. Luke’s temptation was simply “go on, get mad 'cos that’s bad!”.

Rey’s temptation and how she dealt with it actually had a bearing on the battle. Luke’s scenario on DS II was irrelevant to the war.

I liked the movie in general, but the above really made it for me.

TROS copied the whole scenario where Rey/Luke has to watch her friends die, except in ROTJ Luke’s soul was actually on the line, since he had to let his anger get the better of him, such that experiencing the dark side would make him want more. Rey essentially had to choose to let Palpatine possess her, which to me is not half as interesting as willingly becoming an agent of evil yourself. I also feel Kylo’s redemption is not as well developed in this film as Vader’s was in ROTJ. Leia dies, and he suddenly has a change of heart. Vader was shown to have doubts throughout the film, and when the moment came he had to choose between serving his master, and saving the life of his son, which is much more powerful, and compelling in my view. I found Kylo’s potential turn to be much better handled in TLJ, and I feel the last word on his redemption should have been the scene where Rey closes the door on him. So, I don’t agree TROS handled it better in any way. I don’t think it’s terrible either, and if this trilogy can be the OT for a new generation, than that is a good thing, but I also feel an opportunity to do something different with these characters was squandered.

Vader’s redemption is pretty bad honestly and comes out of nowhere. Kylo’s redemption has at least been 3 whole movies in the making. The specific moment with Leia is not handled very well but otherwise this is definitely something they’ve improved upon (though there isn’t anything that touches the moment when Vader turns).

DominicCobb said:

Vader’s redemption is pretty bad honestly and comes out of nowhere. Kylo’s redemption has at least been 3 whole movies in the making. The specific moment with Leia is not handled very well but otherwise this is definitely something they’ve improved upon (though there isn’t anything that touches the moment when Vader turns).

The problem for me is, that TLJ to a large degree was about Kylo’s potential redemption, and in the end he chose to become the Supreme Leader. For me TROS didn’t provide a compelling reason to backtrack on that significant development of his character, and it thus feels unearned for me, despite Adam Driver’s good acting. At the end of TLJ Kylo Ren becomes the Emperor, while in TROS he is quite clumsily forced into the Darth Vader role again right down to the mask. For me TESB was always in part about Vader obsessively searching for his son, indicating that his priorities had shifted. Having failed to convert his son, Vader sort of came across as a broken man in ROTJ, resigned to his fate to be replaced by his son (it is too late for me son). Luke gave him an alternative path, that he only took when he was forced to choose between serving a master, who would replace him, or save his son.

To me TLJ ended with Kylo having everything he thought he wanted but has nothing. And in TROS, he feels he is in too deep. “You can’t go back to Leia now, just like I can’t.”

Not saying it couldn’t have been handled better, but I The way Kylo ends TLJ, with his father’s dice fading from his hands, doesn’t feel like a villain is happy where he is.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Vader’s redemption is pretty bad honestly and comes out of nowhere. Kylo’s redemption has at least been 3 whole movies in the making. The specific moment with Leia is not handled very well but otherwise this is definitely something they’ve improved upon (though there isn’t anything that touches the moment when Vader turns).

The problem for me is, that TLJ to a large degree was about Kylo’s potential redemption, and in the end he chose to become the Supreme Leader. For me TROS didn’t provide a compelling reason to backtrack on that significant development of his character, and it thus feels unearned for me, despite Adam Driver’s good acting. At the end of TLJ Kylo Ren becomes the Emperor, while in TROS he is quite clumsily forced into the Darth Vader role again right down to the mask. For me TESB was always in part about Vader obsessively searching for his son, indicating that his priorities had shifted. Having failed to convert his son, Vader sort of came across as a broken man in ROTJ, resigned to his fate to be replaced by his son (it is too late for me son). Luke gave him an alternative path, that he only took when he was forced to choose between serving a master, who would replace him, or his son.

I feel urge to to argue TLJ with you for the nth time, I’ll just say that’s not my read of him in the film.

ROTJ is, in my mind, the same sort of character fumble for Vader as TROS is for Kylo in the first half.

I had time to think a bit about TROS and how it compares to ROTJ.

I’ve seen TROS only once so far, but I’m already ranking it higher than ROTJ. Btw, I also rank TFA higher than ROTJ. ROTJ feels similar to TLJ in that only the story-line between the central protagonist and antagonist is interesting. Leia, Han and Lando all feel like shells of their former selves, just like Fin, Poe and Rose are not real characters in TLJ, but robots to fill the story. Which is ironic, because TLJ was desperate to be the most inclusive Star Wars film, while TROS just focused on getting the spirit of Star Wars right and managed to be much more inclusive this way by accident. Every characters is a living and breathing human being, much more so than in both TLJ and ROTJ.

I also think that TROS takes the themes and controlling idea of ROTJ and plays with them in an interesting way. To me, ROTJ was about choosing family over power. That was the core choice that both Luke and Vader had to make. Yes, it was also about saving your friends for Luke, but that always felt like a secondary goal to me. The climax of ROTJ was all about saving your family for Luke. In TROS the choice is further muddled as Rey has to choose between her true powerful family and her friends, the surrogate family she developed along her journey. We also get to explore some of Reys darker needs, as behind her motivation to have a family lies a desire to be powerful and strong, to the point of wanting to dominate others. We see this when she stops for a moment to contemplate the offer Palpatine is making. It’s a great dilemma that really hits at the core of her character. It’s not really a family that she wants, as she already has that with the Resistance and her friends, but a hidden need to be powerful, which is probably the result of a lifetime of abuse she had to endure on Jakku.

It’s everything good storytelling is about. It’s also better than what ROTJ did, because there was never really a question about Luke’s choice. Luke never wanted to be powerful and dominate others, so the Emperor never had leverage over him. His rage when he defeated Vader was just something that came up at that moment, but was never really something that he had to struggle with during his arc. Luke always was a good guy. Rey on the other hand wants to be good, but she also has a really strong and selfish need to belong to a family, which I interpreted as a desire to be powerful. This desire to dominate came out in all her light sabre fights of the ST. You already can see it in TFA when she displays a predatory body language while defeating Kylo. It’s a weakness that can be exploited by a manipulator like Palpatine. And it’s this weakness that really makes her choice in TROS more interesting than the one Luke had to make in ROTJ. Yeah, Rey really was physically much more stronger than Luke, but it’s the psychological realm where she is much more vulnerable than Luke. Luke always was committed to the good side and his self-assured aura displayed in ROTJ is never matched by Rey, even at the end of TROS on Tatooine. Luke never really had to suffer the same kind of horrors during his childhood as he had a sheltered and protective upbringing. Luke had love during his childhood. Rey on the other hand had to survive on her own and naturally there is much more rage inside her, which results in a desire to be self-reliant, powerful and dominant, which is perfectly expressed by the writing and her acting.

So yeah, I think TROS is way better than ROTJ. Not only is it better at capturing the spirit of Star Wars, but it also has better writing and more interesting characters.

raderun said:

I had time to think a bit about TROS and how it compares to ROTJ.

I’ve seen TROS only once so far, but I’m already ranking it higher than ROTJ. Btw, I also rank TFA higher than ROTJ. ROTJ feels similar to TLJ in that only the story-line between the central protagonist and antagonist is interesting. Leia, Han and Lando all feel like shells of their former selves, just like Fin, Poe and Rose are not real characters in TLJ, but robots to fill the story. Which is ironic, because TLJ was desperate to be the most inclusive Star Wars film, while TROS just focused on getting the spirit of Star Wars right and managed to be much more inclusive this way by accident. Every characters is a living and breathing human being, much more so than in both TLJ and ROTJ.

I also think that TROS takes the themes and controlling idea of ROTJ and plays with them in an interesting way. To me, ROTJ was about choosing family over power. That was the core choice that both Luke and Vader had to make. Yes, it was also about saving your friends for Luke, but that always felt like a secondary goal to me. The climax of ROTJ was all about saving your family for Luke. In TROS the choice is further muddled as Rey has to choose between her true powerful family and her friends, the surrogate family she developed along her journey. We also get to explore some of Reys darker needs, as behind her motivation to have a family lies a desire to be powerful and strong, to the point of wanting to dominate others. We see this when she stops for a moment to contemplate the offer Palpatine is making. It’s a great dilemma that really hits at the core of her character. It’s not really a family that she wants, as she already has that with the Resistance and her friends, but a hidden need to be powerful, which is probably the result of a lifetime of abuse she had to endure on Jakku.

It’s everything good storytelling is about. It’s also better than what ROTJ did, because there was never really a question about Luke’s choice. Luke never wanted to be powerful and dominate others, so the Emperor never had leverage over him. His rage when he defeated Vader was just something that came up at that moment, but was never really something that he had to struggle with during his arc. Luke always was a good guy. Rey on the other hand wants to be good, but she also has a really strong and selfish need to belong to a family, which I interpreted as a desire to be powerful. This desire to dominate came out in all her light sabre fights of the ST. You already can see it in TFA when she displays a predatory body language while defeating Kylo. It’s a weakness that can be exploited by a manipulator like Palpatine. And it’s this weakness that really makes her choice in TROS more interesting than the one Luke had to make in ROTJ. Yeah, Rey really was physically much more stronger than Luke, but it’s the psychological realm where she is much more vulnerable than Luke. Luke always was committed to the good side and his self-assured aura displayed in ROTJ is never matched by Rey, even at the end of TROS on Tatooine. Luke never really had to suffer the same kind of horrors during his childhood as he had a sheltered and protective upbringing. Luke had love during his childhood. Rey on the other hand had to survive on her own and naturally there is much more rage inside her, which results in a desire to be self-reliant, powerful and dominant, which is perfectly expressed by the writing and her acting.

So yeah, I think TROS is way better than ROTJ. Not only is it better at capturing the spirit of Star Wars, but it also has better writing and more interesting characters.

I disagree. Everything in TROS feels rushed with zero time to breath. There’s a ridiculous amount of exposition in the first half of the film, and the writing is very clunky, where the spy literally says to the audience: “I’m the spy!”, as if it wasn’t clear from what happens in the scene. The movie is full of plot holes, and a lot of it feels contrived from Palpatine’s sudden return to Ben’s sudden turn from Supreme Leader to a good guy faster than Anakin turning from a Jedi to a Sith. Almost nothing is explained:

• How is Palpatine alive?
• Where did he get such an enormous fleet, and personel?
• Why did he wait over three decades to reveal himself?
• Where did that huge rebel fleet come from, and why does Lando succeed instantly in convincing the entire galaxy to join the fight, when Leia could not after SKB had been destroyed? In the words of Han Solo: convenient…
• Why does Force lighting almost instantly kill Palpatine, when it didn’t in ROTS, and why does Palpatine not stop using it, if it kills him? He could easily jump away from Rey, as he’s done in the past. It’s not as if he was cornered like in ROTS.
• etc, etc.

I can empathise with people who couldn’t connect with this movie. If you can’t, you just can’t and that’s fine. Art is subjective and we all perceive it in a million different ways.

I went with a cautious attitude into this movie. The opening on the planet felt like a loud clap and it enjoyed its abruptness. It was something new for the Star Wars universe as was the visual of the nebula. From then on out the movie flowed like a small river, with me sitting on the sideline and observing whatever passed by. Watching this movie was like entering a plane of warmth, hope and optimism. It felt more like a meditative experience, where you just let whatever happens on screen pour into you without being critical. I know this sounds pretentious, but that’s how I would describe my viewing experience. We all have flawed movies that we like. If I zoom out, I can see the flaws of TROS, but that doesn’t change how I feel about it.

Thoroughly enjoyed this movie…more than the first two and would place this ahead of ROTJ…

I also watched TPM last night just to compare…well, no comparison. No emotional response, feeling bored, cringe worthy scenes etc

As to TROS, the big problem with the movie is the lightning quick edits that represent a need to cut the run time at the expense of fleshing out the scene. I hope there are a lots of deleted scenes in the BR release or even an extended edition (crosses fingers). The emotions I felt watching this were surprisingly strong and compare to watching ANH and ESB for the first time. Abrams does get SW in that respect and is likely the reason the audience score is so high as compared to TLJ (which I also liked).

I will be back with more thoughts later.

I think making “sense” of the movie is most easily done if you look at it from the POV that it’s still 2016. It’s a story that - again - isn’t really ABOUT anything, thematically, and isn’t really saying anything beyond “here is how our plot is closed out,” and the decisions made to close out that plot seem to be focused almost solely on answering every last fan-chewed “mystery” that was hashed out in the early months of 2016 before many of the principals started disengaging from the media entirely.

Seriously, it’s not so much getting mad at The Last Jedi, or going out of its way to retcon it. This movie is more or less pretending it didn’t happen, save for the Force Projecting. Everything else is basically a race to answer a checklist of the main questions (whether they were already addressed or not) posed by The Force Awakens as fans understood them in 2016:

“Who is Snoke and what is his backstory?”
“What is Rey’s parentage and how did she wind up there?”
“Why is Rey so strong in the force” (The “Mary Sue” complaint, basically)
“Do Rey and Kylo want to kiss?” (This became “Reylo” eventually)
“Is Finn Force sensitive?”
“Who are the Knights of Ren?”
“What was Luke doing for all that time?”

That’s literally all this film IS about. Answering those questions. But the answers to those questions don’t POINT anywhere thematic or even mythical. They’re just plot - pure plot - and that’s why this movie feels so empty, emotionally. And that emptiness is compounded by the fact the answers they arrived at (and then rushed through) depend on more or less ignoring a better film that answered some of these questions much more simply and effectively, and most importantly, THEMATICALLY.