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Worst Ideas in Star Wars/Good Ideas that went Horribly Wrong — Page 4

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thelonius said:

snooker said:

Goshhh Dooku is seriously the biggest missed opportunity of the prequels. He has like, a minute or two of screen time where he isn’t fighting and it’s so infuriating.

For about 20 minutes while watching Episode II for the first time I thought it was brilliant that he captures Obi-Wan and basically tells him the truth. It looked like they were setting up Dooku as one of the founders of the Rebellion. Having a “bad guy” be basically be on the same side as the Rebels would have been an interesting twist. But they flushed that down the toilet by the end of the film.

Lucas doesn’t know how to write morally complex characters. The best he was able to do was depict Windu as a major dick who really, really doesn’t like Sith Lords.

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Anakin’s fall to the darkside was terrible. The whole notion that he was tricked into believing that the Jedi were attempting a coup etc. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

Anakin’s fall to the darkside was terrible. The whole notion that he was tricked into believing that the Jedi were attempting a coup etc. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

How would you have handled Anakin’s fall to the dark side instead? What would you have done instead of having him believe the Jedi were evil?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

theprequelsrule said:

Anakin’s fall to the darkside was terrible. The whole notion that he was tricked into believing that the Jedi were attempting a coup etc. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

How would you have handled Anakin’s fall to the dark side instead? What would you have done instead of having him believe the Jedi were evil?

I’m not sure to be honest, but give me a decade or so (the time between ROTJ and 1994 when Lucas started writing the PT) and I could come up with something that was at least OK.

Obi-wan failed to give Anakin proper instruction - as he told Luke. But we never see that in the PT. Obi-wan always tries to make Anakin a proper Jedi. Anakin is just shown to be an arrogant prick, and borderline mentally ill.

Here is an idea - the PT starts in the Clone Wars with the Republic losing and the Jedi order decimated and desperate for more Knights. Anakin is not suitable morally, but Obi-wan is convinced it is worth the risk due to his great skill in the force and as a warrior in general. He is convinced that he can reform his ethics, but fails to do so.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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It’s funny to think about the point of each of the prequels individually and if they actually add to the Skywalker saga.

TPM right out of the gate falls into irrelevance by depicting Anakin before he is old enough to have developed any moral nuance. We learn nothing about him except that he’s a really swell little kid who flies good and wants to do other things good too, knowing nothing of greed. Oh, and he also has a superficial crush on the queen. Virtually every experience gained in this movie is ignored by its sequels.

AOTC decides to go into developing this superficial crush angle and turn it into True Love, which fails epically. But not to worry, we still have Anakin as a good man nobly upholding the Jedi ideals and resisting the call of the Dark Side. Except that he murders a tribe of sentient creatures (people), thus torpedoing any attempt at the ‘good man’ angle. But maybe if we discard these two movies, the last one will prove that he was still maturing and that he will become a good man, and maybe give some compelling reason for his fall.

So anyway Anakin straight up beheads an unarmed prisoner in the first twenty minutes of ROTS. This somehow isn’t in the scene where he falls to the Dark Side. No, in the scene where he falls to the Dark Side it is because of True Love, Unlimited Power, or Jedi Are Evil maybe. True Love rings false because he strangles his True Love anyway, and The Jedi Are Evil angle feels like petty childishness coming on the heels of his denial of Mastership. So we’re left with Unlimited Power, essentially simple greed. This is the least compelling answer of all, but has thematic roots in TPM so I guess that’s the answer.

There is one interesting aspect of all three of these explanations for his turn to evil - they are all thematically established in the first installment in the most superficial way possible due to Anakin’s immaturity, and then all three are grossly mishandled in the second installment to such an extent that it is manifestly clear that they are all subservient to, and governed by, Anakin’s persisting immaturity. This overarching theme, Anakin’s immaturity, is the only reason for his fall to the Dark Side that rings true.

And this destroys the message of the OT.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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FreezingTNT2 said:

theprequelsrule said:

Anakin’s fall to the darkside was terrible. The whole notion that he was tricked into believing that the Jedi were attempting a coup etc. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

How would you have handled Anakin’s fall to the dark side instead? What would you have done instead of having him believe the Jedi were evil?

For me, it’s actually a simple answer. Rather than have Anakin be tricked into believing the Jedi were staging a coup, they should have had the Jedi actually stage a coup. We should understand where Anakin’s coming from, even if we ultimately don’t agree with his choices. The Jedi should have more explicitly flawed as an institution and Anakin should have had an ideological opposition to them in addition to being seduced to the dark side.

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NeverarGreat said:

It’s funny to think about the point of each of the prequels individually and if they actually add to the Skywalker saga.

TPM right out of the gate falls into irrelevance by depicting Anakin before he is old enough to have developed any moral nuance. We learn nothing about him except that he’s a really swell little kid who flies good and wants to do other things good too, knowing nothing of greed. Oh, and he also has a superficial crush on the queen. Virtually every experience gained in this movie is ignored by its sequels.

AOTC decides to go into developing this superficial crush angle and turn it into True Love, which fails epically. But not to worry, we still have Anakin as a good man nobly upholding the Jedi ideals and resisting the call of the Dark Side. Except that he murders a tribe of sentient creatures (people), thus torpedoing any attempt at the ‘good man’ angle. But maybe if we discard these two movies, the last one will prove that he was still maturing and that he will become a good man, and maybe give some compelling reason for his fall.

So anyway Anakin straight up beheads an unarmed prisoner in the first twenty minutes of ROTS. This somehow isn’t in the scene where he falls to the Dark Side. No, in the scene where he falls to the Dark Side it is because of True Love, Unlimited Power, or Jedi Are Evil maybe. True Love rings false because he strangles his True Love anyway, and The Jedi Are Evil angle feels like petty childishness coming on the heels of his denial of Mastership. So we’re left with Unlimited Power, essentially simple greed. This is the least compelling answer of all, but has thematic roots in TPM so I guess that’s the answer.

There is one interesting aspect of all three of these explanations for his turn to evil - they are all thematically established in the first installment in the most superficial way possible due to Anakin’s immaturity, and then all three are grossly mishandled in the second installment to such an extent that it is manifestly clear that they are all subservient to, and governed by, Anakin’s persisting immaturity. This overarching theme, Anakin’s immaturity, is the only reason for his fall to the Dark Side that rings true.

And this destroys the message of the OT.

You’re absolutely right that the main reason that rings true is immaturity, I never thought of it that way.

It’s crazy to me how you can pinpoint all the missed opportunities along the way. I remember, as a kid, seeing TPM and thinking Anakin saying he wants to free all the slaves would be something that comes back later. Nope. But it could have. What if ‘freeing the slaves’ led Anakin to think, misguidedly, that an iron-fisted Palpatine regime was necessary to be in place in every system of the galaxy so that everyone followed the rule of law? I like too how the EU novel Labyrinth of Evil sets up that Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

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DominicCobb said:

like too how the EU novel Labyrinth of Evil sets up that Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

We are never shown the implied addictive character of the Darkside are we? You start to use it because you feel you need the power, but in the end it masters you. There is an implication that it is a malevolent force that twists it’s users to pure evil even if they had noble goals. Palpatine is the end result of the process; power for power’s sake.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

like too how the EU novel Labyrinth of Evil sets up that Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

We are never shown the implied addictive character of the Darkside are we? You start to use it because you feel you need the power, but in the end it masters you. There is an implication that it is a malevolent force that twists it’s users to pure evil even if they had noble goals. Palpatine is the end result of the process; power for power’s sake.

Yes, that’s exactly how it was portrayed in the OT and then Lucas dropped the ball. Just look at the scene where Anakin kills Dooku - instead of instinctively killing him after unleashing his anger to best him, he has to be goaded into doing it after he’s already admitted that it’s not the right thing to do. So stupid.

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DominicCobb said:

theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

like too how the EU novel Labyrinth of Evil sets up that Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

We are never shown the implied addictive character of the Darkside are we? You start to use it because you feel you need the power, but in the end it masters you. There is an implication that it is a malevolent force that twists it’s users to pure evil even if they had noble goals. Palpatine is the end result of the process; power for power’s sake.

Yes, that’s exactly how it was portrayed in the OT and then Lucas dropped the ball. Just look at the scene where Anakin kills Dooku - instead of instinctively killing him after unleashing his anger to best him, he has to be goaded into doing it after he’s already admitted that it’s not the right thing to do. So stupid.

Garbage acting and directing as well. Compare it to the scene it “rhymes with” in ROTJ and there is no comparison. The emotional impact and physical ferocity (man, is Luke pissed off!) in ROTJ are miles beyond the ROTS scene.

edit: forgot to add that the music in the ROTJ scene is much better too.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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In the OT, Anikan was “seduced” by the dark side of the force. As Vader, he similarly tries to seduce Luke with promises of the power of the dark side, and a partnership with his father. In the PT, Anikan was a creep to begin with.

"Close the blast doors!"
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I thought the midiclorians concept was pretty bad. Probably my least favorite idea in all the films.

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The whole political aspect of the prequels is fantastic and amazingly relevant to today but it’s communicated so incredibly poorly.

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theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

like too how the EU novel Labyrinth of Evil sets up that Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

We are never shown the implied addictive character of the Darkside are we? You start to use it because you feel you need the power, but in the end it masters you. There is an implication that it is a malevolent force that twists it’s users to pure evil even if they had noble goals. Palpatine is the end result of the process; power for power’s sake.

Yes, that’s exactly how it was portrayed in the OT and then Lucas dropped the ball. Just look at the scene where Anakin kills Dooku - instead of instinctively killing him after unleashing his anger to best him, he has to be goaded into doing it after he’s already admitted that it’s not the right thing to do. So stupid.

Garbage acting and directing as well. Compare it to the scene it “rhymes with” in ROTJ and there is no comparison. The emotional impact and physical ferocity (man, is Luke pissed off!) in ROTJ are miles beyond the ROTS scene.

edit: forgot to add that the music in the ROTJ scene is much better too.

I disagree - I think Anakin’s fall made infinitely more sense. When Anakin hesitates to kill Dooku, Palpatine appeals to his sense of vengeance. He knows that Anakin is confused and immature and on an ethical knife’s edge, so he just gives a little push. What this does is place Anakin in the position of having done something he cannot walk away from, which in turn feeds his self-deception all the way through to finally betraying the Jedi. I’m not saying it was handled well, but at least we get a sense of manipulation, corruption, and some blurry ethical lines.

In ROTJ all Luke does is lose his temper when Vader threatens his sister. So what? How is that a path to the Dark Side when throwing the Emperor to his death is apparently a free pass to Jedi heaven?

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Anakin already murdered a whole village out of “anger” in AOTC. So killing one extra guy is nothing. It’s not a turning point or a good example of characterisation. Is Dooku more human than the sand people and therefore a darker step along the path? Does Anakin even learn anything new about himself or the dark side? We may never know. There’s no apparent easier path, or any obvious seductive power.

Luke at least used dark powers to allow his easy access to Jabba’s palace, and fell afoul of his abuse of the Jedi mind trick. When he lashes out at Palpatine it’s the same, his temper does more harm than good. Then at the end with Vader it’s clear the strength he gains allows him to win the fight. But instead of seeing this as a great advantage he’s the better man and corrects these mistakes. If he was weaker he might have let the victory influence him in a different way, that’s why these moments in ROTJ work.

Vader’s redemption is certainly iffy, but in the context of acting selflessly instead of selfishly it’s enough. As long as you ignore his supposed child murdering days. In a broader sense he’s finally giving up all that power to remember his humanity. It’s less about killing one last bad guy and more about the sacrifice.

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DominicCobb said:

Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping >into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

That’s how how I would set it up. Anakin and friends (stormtrooper, Ahsoka, whoever) ends up in ever more difficult situation. This happens sometimes by chance, sometimes by the machinations of Palpatine/Dokuu. The dark side becomes Anakin’s easy way out.

However this leaves some things unhandled:

  1. Anakin’s final change. Amidala’s death is not handled well IMO in the PT.
  2. Anakin getting recruited by Palpatine.
  3. Obi-Wan denouncing Anikin/realizing he is evil.
  4. Obi-Wan possibly defeating Anakin.

3&4 are of course hinted at during the dialogue on the death star in ANH. But it does not have to be Obi-Wan that defeats Anakin. Personally I would have prefered if Obi-Wan desperatly tried to confront and save Anakin in ROtS until he sees Anakin with Palpatine or Anakin doing something that makes Obi-Wan realize Anakin is beyond hope (at least normal hope). It’s a big step going from being someone’s best friend and actively trying to kill them, a feat I don’t think Obi-Wan could perform. Vader could have ended up in a suit after some other combat(s). After all he is supposed to have hunted down and killed many jedi. For continuity at least one such combat should have been in ROtS.
The basic killing of Dokuu in ROtS is actually clever, Anakin ends up in a situation where he is pressed, with Palpatine present. Palp loses one apprentice for a better one. More should have been made of this, it should have been the turning point for Anakin.
So that is how I would have handled it. Basic clone wars setting, Anakin often steaming with battle rage, Palpatine gets “kidnapped”, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka gets knocked out (with a little help from Palp). Dokuu prepares to kill them, Anakin releases his anger and gets recruited by Palpatine. Obi-Wan does not realize this until late in the film, with Yoda warning him. Obi-Wan tries most of the film trying to find a “cure” for his friend, but sees Anakin killing another jedi and walking off with Palp and realizes Anakin is lost, “a master of evil”.

I used to work with a guy whose last name was pronounced Forceborn. Yes, really.

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On the topic of horrible ideas in Star Wars, I’d say the concept of cloning in this entire franchise. It creates massive plot holes, like why did Darth Sidious turn Anakin Skywalker to the dark side if he could just easily clone himself and then turn said clone to the dark side?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

On the topic of horrible ideas in Star Wars, I’d say the concept of cloning in this entire franchise. It creates massive plot holes, like why did Darth Sidious turn Anakin Skywalker to the dark side if he could just easily clone himself and then turn said clone to the dark side?

Or why didn’t he replace Vader’s damaged limbs/organs with cloned parts instead of crude bionics? Or create a massive army of unquestioning Force-wielders?

There are just so many problems with Force-sensitivity being genetic, and this is one of them.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

On the topic of horrible ideas in Star Wars, I’d say the concept of cloning in this entire franchise. It creates massive plot holes, like why did Darth Sidious turn Anakin Skywalker to the dark side if he could just easily clone himself and then turn said clone to the dark side?

Or why didn’t he replace Vader’s damaged limbs/organs with cloned parts instead of crude bionics? Or create a massive army of unquestioning Force-wielders?

There are just so many problems with Force-sensitivity being genetic, and this is one of them.

Come now Duracell, all we would need is simple line that says something like “clones of force sensitives go insane” to get out of that. If we can suspend disbelief and accept that The Force is a real thing, then I think we can accept that you can’t successfully clone force sensitives.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Alright, I can run with clone madness being inherent in Force-sensitive clones. Vader’s persisting handicaps remain unresolved, though (or is Palpatine just that huge a dick?)

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  • The Jedi having a public temple and Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda being famous. The Original Trilogy that few people were ever aware that the Jedi existed, that even fewer people were that Anakin was one and that what Uncle Owen claimed was wrong, and that even fewer people than that were aware of Yoda’s existence.

  • “Darth” being a title. Should every Jedi have “Ben” as a title?

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When the KOTOR games and TOR are set. They should be set in ~2000-1000 BBY (so that they’d be part of the “New Sith Wars” and lead into the “Republic Dark Age” and continuity with TOTJ wouldn’t be an issue) and KOTOR II should be set at least 100 years after Revan’s lifetime and during the Republic Dark Age.

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The notion that a cult — consisting of two individuals at a time, whose influence is limited to a single galaxy — has the power to unbalance a pantheistic/panentheistic spiritual energy field which encompasses an entire immeasurably vast universe.

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Repeated Comment™

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.