Why don't people hate the Palpatine re-casting in ESB yet despise Force ghost Anakin's re-casting in RotJ? — Page 2

dgraham414 said:

My dislike of one and apathy towards the other comes from the films internal consistency.
If you’re a first time viewer of ROTJ and it’s the first Star Wars movie you’ve seen ever then it’ll be really odd to see a brand new, never before seen, actor portraying… well you can’t even be sure if you have no prior knowledge to bass it off of. That is why the replacement of Sebastian Shaw is so much more reviled then the replacement of the Emperor.

This is another really good point - the change seems to depend on the idea that everyone who watches/rewatches the movies is going to watch them in episode order. But that’s not only very presumptious, but it doesn’t make sense for that to be the assumed default. Watching them in episode order basically breaks the whole saga and makes it duller and more confusing in general, because so much of what the PT even IS, is reverse-engineered from the OT. It’s constantly referencing stuff it assumes you know from having watched the OT already.

It’s a change made solely for the purpose of benefitting people who are watching it in a manner disadvantageous to getting the most out of the series. It ONLY works on rewatches, if it works at all - and it doesn’t.

I don’t like the change. In fact, I don’t like McDiarmid’s performance as Palpatine at all. Well, actually, I do like his performance in the PT, believe it or not, until he becomes Darth Henrietta. But that cackling she-bitch shit makes me puke; give me Clive Revill’s understated delivery anytime.

Broom Kid said:

dgraham414 said:

My dislike of one and apathy towards the other comes from the films internal consistency.
If you’re a first time viewer of ROTJ and it’s the first Star Wars movie you’ve seen ever then it’ll be really odd to see a brand new, never before seen, actor portraying… well you can’t even be sure if you have no prior knowledge to bass it off of. That is why the replacement of Sebastian Shaw is so much more reviled then the replacement of the Emperor.

This is another really good point - the change seems to depend on the idea that everyone who watches/rewatches the movies is going to watch them in episode order. But that’s not only very presumptious, but it doesn’t make sense for that to be the assumed default. Watching them in episode order basically breaks the whole saga and makes it duller and more confusing in general, because so much of what the PT even IS, is reverse-engineered from the OT. It’s constantly referencing stuff it assumes you know from having watched the OT already.

It’s a change made solely for the purpose of benefitting people who are watching it in a manner disadvantageous to getting the most out of the series. It ONLY works on rewatches, if it works at all - and it doesn’t.

Arguably if you’re going in release order it provides a decent bridge from OT back to PT. But if you’re watching in release order, you should be watching the OOT anyway, so it doesn’t matter.

DominicCobb said:
In the context of the whole saga, Hayden is Anakin. Sure, you can understand that Shaw is supposed to be Anakin, but the fact of the matter is he never once looked like that in any of these films. Not to mention, continuity-wise, Shaw is far too old to be playing Anakin (he still works as the unmasked Vader because his injuries, the suit, and the dark side have made him more decrepit). You can say that it doesn’t make sense that the ghost would look like he did decades before he died, but I’d argue it makes as much sense as an imagined fantasy version of older him.

Now, the other thing people complain about is that the Hayden footage was a costume test, and it doesn’t fit. This is true, and it’s a little janky, but it’s not that bad. Here’s the thing though. The people saying Shaw’s acting is not being respected? That’s silly. Shaw’s acting is intact, in his scene with Hamill. Shaw’s ‘acting’ in the ghost scene was literally just George telling him to smile at the camera. That’s it. He had no idea the context, what was going on, or why he was smiling. So I’d say that’s only marginally better than a costume test.

Ultimately what it comes down to for me is that Anakin/Vader shouldn’t end up with a ghost at all at the end of the movie, so both versions are stupid to me, personally.

He didn’t look that old as ghost. If we consider the Prequels Canon, Anakin should be in the late 40s/50s, not young like Hayden Christensen.
About disrespecting actors, i take the opposite view. I believe all the actors of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker were disrespected. David Prowse, the original Vader was overdubbed, replaced by Shaw in RotJ and later ostracized by George Lucas. Sebastian Shaw who plays the unmasked Vader in RotJ is now removed in the final scene, and his face is covered up with CGI(removed eye brows, changed eye color). Jake Llyod was mobbed for playing the young Anakin in TPM. Hayden Christensen is hated for the performance that George wanted from him.

Your_friendly_Imperial said:

DominicCobb said:
In the context of the whole saga, Hayden is Anakin. Sure, you can understand that Shaw is supposed to be Anakin, but the fact of the matter is he never once looked like that in any of these films. Not to mention, continuity-wise, Shaw is far too old to be playing Anakin (he still works as the unmasked Vader because his injuries, the suit, and the dark side have made him more decrepit). You can say that it doesn’t make sense that the ghost would look like he did decades before he died, but I’d argue it makes as much sense as an imagined fantasy version of older him.

Now, the other thing people complain about is that the Hayden footage was a costume test, and it doesn’t fit. This is true, and it’s a little janky, but it’s not that bad. Here’s the thing though. The people saying Shaw’s acting is not being respected? That’s silly. Shaw’s acting is intact, in his scene with Hamill. Shaw’s ‘acting’ in the ghost scene was literally just George telling him to smile at the camera. That’s it. He had no idea the context, what was going on, or why he was smiling. So I’d say that’s only marginally better than a costume test.

Ultimately what it comes down to for me is that Anakin/Vader shouldn’t end up with a ghost at all at the end of the movie, so both versions are stupid to me, personally.

He didn’t look that old as ghost. If we consider the Prequels Canon, Anakin should be in the late 40s/50s, not young like Hayden Christensen.

Sebastian Shaw was 77 at the time of filming, and, frankly, looks it. Anakin would only be about 45 according to the prequels. Shaw is way too old. Obviously Hayden is too young, but the idea is that he has reverted back to his pre-Vader self.

DominicCobb said:

Your_friendly_Imperial said:

DominicCobb said:
In the context of the whole saga, Hayden is Anakin. Sure, you can understand that Shaw is supposed to be Anakin, but the fact of the matter is he never once looked like that in any of these films. Not to mention, continuity-wise, Shaw is far too old to be playing Anakin (he still works as the unmasked Vader because his injuries, the suit, and the dark side have made him more decrepit). You can say that it doesn’t make sense that the ghost would look like he did decades before he died, but I’d argue it makes as much sense as an imagined fantasy version of older him.

Now, the other thing people complain about is that the Hayden footage was a costume test, and it doesn’t fit. This is true, and it’s a little janky, but it’s not that bad. Here’s the thing though. The people saying Shaw’s acting is not being respected? That’s silly. Shaw’s acting is intact, in his scene with Hamill. Shaw’s ‘acting’ in the ghost scene was literally just George telling him to smile at the camera. That’s it. He had no idea the context, what was going on, or why he was smiling. So I’d say that’s only marginally better than a costume test.

Ultimately what it comes down to for me is that Anakin/Vader shouldn’t end up with a ghost at all at the end of the movie, so both versions are stupid to me, personally.

He didn’t look that old as ghost. If we consider the Prequels Canon, Anakin should be in the late 40s/50s, not young like Hayden Christensen.

Sebastian Shaw was 77 at the time of filming, and, frankly, looks it. Anakin would only be about 45 according to the prequels. Shaw is way too old. Obviously Hayden is too young, but the idea is that he has reverted back to his pre-Vader self.

Could we deepfake a 40-something David Prowse over Shaw? That’s a proposal I’ve thought about for a while.

Still, with both changes - Adywan made ‘04 Emperor work, but the official version is awful; the Christensen ghost was a bad idea (but I get why) that was executed poorly. Give it to him now, use his full body, and make him act exactly like Shaw, then you’d have something. I’m not a fan of either’s execution, but I don’t mind the sentiment.

With this said, the originals should be available in similar quality to the SE - I only watch 4KXX, Despecialized, and Ady’s work for the OT.

I like both.

I do like Adywan, but most of the changes seem nitpicky.

Your_friendly_Imperial said:

I do like Adywan, but most of the changes seem nitpicky.

That’s kinda the idea though. His goal is ‘the Special Editions as they should have been.’ If the SEs are supposed to update the film and fix errors, nitpicky changes seem appropriate.

I think they’re both improvements. Leaving Ghost Shaw in there would be a plot hole, IMO, as unscarred Shaw never existed.

By that logic, the Hayden ghost is also a plot hole, since a long-haired Anakin with an intact right arm and those specific robes also never existed.

And what about Jacob Marley? He never wore chains and cash boxes in life. Plot hole. Dickens was a hack.

ALOL.

His robe shouldn’t even be a ghost!

Anakin Starkiller said:

I think they’re both improvements. Leaving Ghost Shaw in there would be a plot hole, IMO, as unscarred Shaw never existed.

Doesn’t matter. He’s part of the Force and thus can take on any form of his choice.

crissrudd4554 said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

I think they’re both improvements. Leaving Ghost Shaw in there would be a plot hole, IMO, as unscarred Shaw never existed.

Doesn’t matter. He’s part of the Force and thus can take on any form of his choice.

What if he wanted to come back as a goose?

GlastoEls said:

crissrudd4554 said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

I think they’re both improvements. Leaving Ghost Shaw in there would be a plot hole, IMO, as unscarred Shaw never existed.

Doesn’t matter. He’s part of the Force and thus can take on any form of his choice.

What if he wanted to come back as a goose?

Then a goose he would be.