logo Sign In

How would you have done ROTJ? — Page 11

Author
Time
 (Edited)

For me some of the fresh introductions in ESB felt like they were going to go somewhere but didn't in ROTJ (presumably because Lucas felt out of love with Star Wars and what it over and done with).

One obvious example is Boba Fett.

A lot of work went into designing him.

His armour and his ship have the sort of detailing a comic book creator would put into a major new title.

He is clearly designed to be Solo through a mirror darkly.

If Solo was really as mercenary and cynical as he pretended in ANH he would be Fett.

He knows Solo's tricks and uses them to track him.

He truly is solo (he hasn't even got a sidekick like Chewie to keep him company).

It's a shame really he wasn't conceived as such when the first film was written.

He could have conned Greedo into confronting Solo in the cantina, he could have tipped the Stormtroopers off knowing that Solo would escape but just to be a thorn in his side.

When he turned up again in ESB the audience would then be tempted to ask, what's the beef between these two? It's not just a common bounty/hunter relationship here. Has he got some sort of personal grudge?

I know some people will find this galaxy shrinking but ROTJ had a opportunity to show how far Solo had grown and where he may be going (joining the Rebels full time, contemplating settling down with Leia etc) by showing what he could have become through Fett.

I suggested a fan edit scenario where instead of being a bodyguard waiting around to get killed in Jabba's palace Fett worked the Rebels and Empire off each other.

He is hired by Vader to lure the Rebels to the Death Star trap and hired by the Rebels to track the Emperor's movements.

Both gigs giving Fett the information he needs to pick up both paychecks.

If it were actually filmed back in the eighties rather than dropped in a fan-edit insert you could have a confrontation where Solo gets a chance to get even with Fett but doesn't.

Solo could instead (in his smart mouth way) question Fett about what the money is all for, which would mirror Luke trying to get Han to help the Rebels in ANH.

Something like :

Han : "That's a lot of cash Fett, what do you need it for alimony?"

Fett could walk off but without looking at him say "Yes".

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Bingowings said:

For me some of the fresh introductions in ESB felt like they were going to go somewhere but didn't in ROTJ (presumably because Lucas felt out of love with Star Wars and what it over and done with).

One obvious example is Boba Fett.

A lot of work went into designing him.

His armour and his ship have the sort of detailing a comic book creator would put into a major new title.

He is clearly designed to be Solo through a mirror darkly.

If Solo was really as mercenary and cynical as he pretended in ANH he would be Fett.

He knows Solo's tricks and uses them to track him.

He truly is solo (he hasn't even got a sidekick like Chewie to keep him company).

It's a shame really he wasn't conceived as such when the first film was written.

He could have conned Greedo into confronting Solo in the cantina, he could have tipped the Stormtroopers off knowing that Solo would escape but just to be a thorn in his side.

When he turned up again in ESB the audience would then be tempted to ask, what's the beef between these two? It's not just a common bounty/hunter relationship here. Has he got some sort of personal grudge?

I know some people will find this galaxy shrinking but ROTJ had a opportunity to show how far Solo had grown and where he may be going (joining the Rebels full time, contemplating settling down with Leia etc) by showing what he could have become through Fett.

I suggested a fan edit scenario where instead of being a bodyguard waiting around to get killed in Jabba's palace Fett worked the Rebels and Empire off each other.

He is hired by Vader to lure the Rebels to the Death Star trap and hired by the Rebels to track the Emperor's movements.

Both gigs giving Fett the information he needs to pick up both paychecks.

If it were actually filmed back in the eighties rather than dropped in a fan-edit insert you could have a confrontation where Solo gets a chance to get even with Fett but doesn't.

Solo could instead (in his smart mouth way) question Fett about what the money is all for, which would mirror Luke trying to get Han to help the Rebels in ANH.

Something like :

Han : "That's a lot of cash Fett, what do you need it for alimony?"

Fett could walk off but without looking at him say "Yes".

You make too many assumptions here Bingo. A lot of work went into a lot of characters (like the other bounty hunters) and nothing more was planned for them. Sure, Fett looks cool, but let's not wank all over him like TFNers.

People forget Luke was the main character of these films - which of course is why they work (unlike say...Anakin Skywalker and the prequels). But in our modern era I guess Han Solo types are more "cool".

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time

Bingo, I love you.

 

Also, Darth_Ender, Wookiee has two E's.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

Author
Time

Not that much work went into the other bounty hunters.

Bossk it the head of one Cantina denizen in the space suit of another.

Dengar is mostly cloth with some oversized stormtrooper armour.

4LOM is a an insect head on a protocol droid body.

Zuckuss is basically the same head over a brown robe, even IG88 is partly made from re-cycled airplane parts (already used in the first film as a drinks dispenser).

None of them had custom ships and none of them had the same amount of air time and not much of them was designed from scratch.

Author
Time

Bingowings said:

Not that much work went into the other bounty hunters.

Bossk it the head of one Cantina denizen in the space suit of another.

Dengar is mostly cloth with some oversized stormtrooper armour.

4LOM is a an insect head on a protocol droid body.

Zuckuss is basically the same head over a brown robe, even IG88 is partly made from re-cycled airplane parts (already used in the first film as a drinks dispenser).

None of them had custom ships and none of them had the same amount of air time and not much of them was designed from scratch.

Fair enough. The irony here is that they looked just as cool as Fett. No wonder Empire went overbudget.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time

Tyrphanax said:

Bingo, I love you.

 

Also, Darth_Ender, Wookiee has two E's.

 Good catch.  I spelled it right elsewhere.

Man, you tease a guy for his spelling and you never live it down!

Author
Time
 (Edited)

theprequelsrule said:

Bingowings said:

Not that much work went into the other bounty hunters.

Bossk it the head of one Cantina denizen in the space suit of another.

Dengar is mostly cloth with some oversized stormtrooper armour.

4LOM is a an insect head on a protocol droid body.

Zuckuss is basically the same head over a brown robe, even IG88 is partly made from re-cycled airplane parts (already used in the first film as a drinks dispenser).

None of them had custom ships and none of them had the same amount of air time and not much of them was designed from scratch.

Fair enough. The irony here is that they looked just as cool as Fett. No wonder Empire went overbudget.

I think it went overbudget because it was underbudgeted in the first place.

The first film was relatively cheap to make in modern terms (as were ROTJ and the PT), but it was still quite expensive for a genre film, nothing like Star Wars (high production values, special effects heavy, well cast, family Science Fiction Fantasy) had been made since probably The Forbidden Planet.

The second film could have coasted along at the level of the first film reusing all the same models and props (Splinter Of The Mind's Eye was plan B if Star Wars wasn't a big hit).

But I doubt if we would be talking here if it had.

In most ways ROTJ is ESB's Splinter Of The Mind's Eye.

Almost everything that works about that film is recycled from one of the others and almost everything that was new (with the possible exception of the Jabba puppet) was lacking the same sophistication that the first two films had (even so it also cost about the same as ESB despite having all those pre-built props and pre-designed concepts to pool from).

ESB attempted to up the game started by the first film (something rarely attempted with sequels before or since). That's why Kersh took so much effort on building the characters and making the film feel right. To top the first film in terms of look was bound to cost more than the first one (especially as the new locations meant not much could be recycled in terms of sets).

While some people here still prefer the first film most of what the general public view as Star Wars came from the second film.

As for Solo being more cool for modern audiences I remember when the first film came out my primary school music teacher (who in 1977 was already in her fifties) was raving about Han and nothing else.

In her eyes he stole the show.

So it's not a modern thing.

Solo (and Leia ironically considering the bombshell Lucas threw into the plot) was pretty much sidelined in ROTJ and while Luke is the primary character the success of the first two films was down to it being a well balanced ensemble piece.

Having his arc mirror Luke's would underline the main message of the film and the saga as a whole.

Author
Time

darth_ender said:

Tyrphanax said:

Bingo, I love you.

 

Also, Darth_Ender, Wookiee has two E's.

 Good catch.  I spelled it right elsewhere.

Man, you tease a guy for his spelling and you never live it down!

Only if you keep making mistakes. ;-)

Author
Time

It would have added to the symmetry if Boba Fett was given the exact same money that was given to Solo in ANH (he doesn't need to pay off Jabba now).

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Bingowings said:


As for Solo being more cool for modern audiences I remember when the first film came out my primary school music teacher (who in 1977 was already in her fifties) was raving about Han and nothing else.

In her eyes he stole the show.

So it's not a modern thing.


This reminded me of something I've noticed about Han. He seems a lot more sly in SW than in the sequels, with a much more weasely voice in parts, like when he says "I don't have it with me" to Greedo on Tatooine and during his conversation with Luke & Ben on the Falcon about the existence of the Force.

I'm not criticisizing this, mind you. Just making an observation.

Author
Time

In that scene he is still a smuggler by trade, the man caring enough to turn up at the end and save the day was still hidden behind his professional bravado.

He is also talking to another chancer, who is proposing robbing and killing him (which make's Lucas' reasoning for 'Gringo' shooting first utterly farcical).

Lando is almost a projection of the man he could be if he continues to become responsible, the guy has to weigh his past friendship with the safety of the people in Cloud City (Leia would appreciate that if she wasn't a chip off the old block).

So having Fett as a projection of Han if he went in the other direction completes the set.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Here’s a bump spurred by the recent discussion of the ‘Obi-wan once thought as you do’ scene for Adywan’s edit.

It always felt like there was more to the story when Vader said ‘You don’t know the power of the Dark Side…I must obey my master.’ What was so powerful that would essentially hold Vader hostage to this evil man? I suppose in the film we are supposed to assume that the Dark Side is so seductive that after you fall you are incapable of ever recovering, but even then why is Vader so adamant about serving Palpatine? It’s not like Palpatine is the source of the Dark Side.

So my theory is that Palpatine has some ability with the Dark Side which Vader cannot replicate, for instance he might have kept Vader alive with the Force after his injuries and may periodically give Vader a new ‘infusion’ to prevent him from further deterioration. In this way Vader is a literal hostage of the Emperor.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Here’s how I’d fix Return of the Jedi:

  • Boba Fett gets a better death instead of being simply thrown into the Sarlaac pit
  • I’d fix the “Luke and Leia are siblings” thing by removing the cheek kiss in A New Hope and both incest kisses in The Empire Strikes Back.
  • Remove the lines “So it is true, from a certain point of of view.” and “A certain point of view?”, immediately cut to Obi-Wan’s speech to Luke about Anakin.
  • Endor is replaced with the Wookie homeworld, obviously (Ewoks are replaced with Wookies)
  • Remove Ackbar’s “It’s a trap!” line, a line so bad that it has been mocked by many as a meme for a long time.
  • The second Death Star is replaced with Palpatine’s flagship, similar to the Supremacy in The Last Jedi.

ENDING CHANGE:

When Luke is attacking Vader, he slashes the helmet off, as we see his face. Also, when Palpatine is electrocuting Luke, Vader, having redeemed himself, decides to fight Palpatine off as he gets electrocuted, sacrificing his own life and allowing Luke to escape. Palpatine, realizing that the Empire is close to its destruction, orders the remaining Imperials to rebuild in the Unknown Regions via hologram before he and the remaining Imperials flee to the Unknown Regions (Vader witnesses the hologram part as he dies).

Palpatine’s flagship is destroyed. Upon returning to the Wookie homeworld, Anakin’s ghost appears to Luke and warns him that Palpatine will return and the Empire will rebuild in the Unknown Regions. Luke tells Leia and Han about this, as he comes up with a plan to rebuild the Jedi Order while Han and Leia reform the Republic to fight against the rebuilt Empire as it becomes stronger than ever. This would set up the sequel trilogy.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

I have some very drastic ideas regarding fixing ROTJ. Before I begin, I want to clearly state I enjoy ROTJ as it is. It is my fourth favorite SW movie and makes for a fun time. It is a fine conclusion to the OT. But it still pales in comparison to ANH and ESB, particularly when you consider all the nuances Empire was setting up. George Lucas has said he just wanted to “wrap up” Star Wars after ESB, but what if he hadn’t been tired of the franchise at that point, and was willing to continue?

Ultimately, I have come to the realization that in order to fix Return of the Jedi, it must be split into two separate movies. This would turn the Original Trilogy into the Original Quadriology.

My reasoning is as follows. “A New Hope” has a clear plot structure that is established in the opening crawl. The Empire has the Death Star, the Rebellion wants to stop the Death Star. Everything that happens in that movie revolves around destroying or defending the Death Star. The droids get the plans, we follow the plans around, they rescue the princess, and they destroy the Death Star.

“Empire Strikes Back” also has a clear plot structure that is established in the opening crawl, although it’s missable if you aren’t paying attention. The film is all about Vader hunting Luke. Luke on Dagobah is all about teaching Luke to be ready for the inevitable confrontation, while Han and Leia are stalling for said confrontation. Alas, they are captured too early, and Luke has not had enough training to properly confront Vader.

“Return of the Jedi” does not have a clear plot structure. Instead, it has three plots all mashed into one movie. They are…

  1. Rescue Han Solo from the clutches of Jabba, in the aftermath of TESB.
  2. Destroy the Second Death Star
  3. Redeem Darth Vader / Don’t seduce Luke Skywalker

I think this is too much and gives way to a wonky story that is more about wrapping up Empire’s loose ends than giving us a proper conclusion. Let’s consider Han’s rescue. Can anyone tell me what it accomplishes in ROTJ? All it serves is to get Han on Endor, so we can have a proper resolution. It would have been easier to just NOT have Han be captured in the first place. And with a third of ROTJ dedicated to stopping a side villain unrelated to the Empire, we cannot properly explore the themes introduced in the latter half of the film.

So if I had been in charge of Star Wars during 1980, I would have created two more Star Wars movies.

Episode III: Luke and Leia try to rescue Han Solo from Jabba. Meanwhile, the Emperor has become displeased by Vader’s failure to bring in Luke and has now recruited Jabba - who looks more like Prince Xizor - to hunt Luke in a race against Vader. Vader goes rogue, forming an unlikely alliance with the Rebels to take down Jabba. Unsure as to the ending - either it returns to the status quo, or Vader and Luke team up against the Emperor to rule father and son.

Episode IV: The Rebels learn the Death Star was just a prototype, and hundreds more are being constructed above Kashyyk. We learn Chewebacca’s backstory as an outcast to his people, but he must return home to convince the Wookies to join the fight. Han sacrifices himself. Luke defeats Vader and walks off into a (binary) sunset.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time

What is it with people wanting Han to be killed off in Return of the Jedi?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

I like that “two movies” idea a lot! I think I’d go about it a little differently, namely to allow Vader’s redemption a bit more development and show him trying to fess up to his mistakes. I like your ideas, Outbound Flight, so allow me to build off of them.

Episode III: Labyrinth of Evil

  • Do the whole rescue of Han deal, working into Han and Lando trying to mend their relationship. It could be a good piece on how Han’s character has grown and the desire to take action rather than sit the Galactic Civil War out like Lando was content to do. You even have them tag-teaming Boba Fett to end their arc, with Fett dying pretty conclusively (e.g., not much left of his body).

  • Have Vader fall out of favor with the Emperor (over space skype), as Palpatine replaces him with a new apprentice (call him Maul, because I’m not keen on prince pheromone from SOTE). Vader is a fugitive, with nowhere left to go in the Empire.

  • Maul tracks the heroes down to Tatooine, with Vader in close pursuit. Vader uses this time to reflect on how Palpatine has thrown him away and how he must join with his son to defeat the Emperor. We get flashbacks to his time as a young man, before Palpatine took him under his wing (different from the Prequel setup, obviously). These are the first inklings that Vader might be regretting his choices.

  • Vader finds Luke and Leia, telling them what has happened. He announces his intention to betray the Emperor by aiding the rebellion, which both Luke and Leia have some doubts about. While Luke can sense that Vader is serious, he sees that he’s doing it out of selfish reasons. Throughout the movie, as he feeds correct information to the rebels and helps out Luke and Leia, we see that he can be trustworthy yet still within the dark side.

  • Leia sees how pathetic Vader is and how he had little autonomy under the Emperor. He couldn’t fight the order to destroy Alderaan, even if he tried. She sees him as a useful resource but believes that he should be condemned for his crimes against the galaxy.

  • Pepper in some flashbacks about Vader’s past, with Luke learning his name from locals and confronting Vader with the revelation. He says the whole “That name no longer has any meaning to me” bit from ROTJ, but Luke doesn’t do the whole “true self” deal, not yet.

  • The movie would end with the defeat of Jabba and Maul confronting Luke and Leia. Luke would be outclassed in the fight, with Vader intervening to kill Maul. It would confuse Luke, as he did not feel Vader acting through the dark side. We also might see Leia using the Force, inadvertently, for the first time since the ESB telepathy.

  • Our last scene would be Luke and Vader at the ruins of the Lars Homestead. This is where Luke tells him about the good he sensed in him, begging his father to “come with him” and tease it out. Vader merely responds with “It is too late for me, son.” Luke would respond, “But is it?” The heroes travel back to the rebellion, while Vader remains and meditates on this discovery.

Episode IV - Return of the Jedi

  • With Vader continuing to provide the rebellion with information from a distance, the Empire (now revealed as the “Sith Empire,” which invaded and conquered the Republic - borrowing another Outbound Flight idea) has been pushed to a few straggling planets, one of which is the Wookie homeworld of Kashyyyk. We see this through a montage of imperial worlds falling to the rebels and the destruction of Star Destroyers/imperial artifacts. Learning that the Emperor is aboard his skyhook orbiting Kashyyk, the rebels plan to attack.

  • Han and Leia lead the strike team to take down the shield generator and allow the rebel fleet to engage the last of the imperials (think Jakku, but it’s Kashyyyk instead). Han and Leia’s arc revolves around Chewbacca, with Han believing him capable of convincing the Wookies and Leia doubting that an exiled Wookie will win them much support (Chewbacca led a failed rebellion that resulted in the enslavement of many of his kind, including himself).

  • Yoda and Luke meet, with Yoda dying after telling Luke about the “other Skywalker.” Obi-Wan then confirms it to be Leia, while also telling Luke that turning Vader is impossible. Luke then joins the others with the rebel fleet, telling Leia about her origins and how she can use the Force to further the rebellion’s goals.

  • Luke then tries to find Vader to help him face Palpatine. He finds Vader on Mustafar, the planet where he sustained the injuries that forced him into the life support suit. This is an opportunity for both a flashback (perhaps to his fight with Obi-Wan) and for Luke to remind him about the good he sensed in him. Vader tries to push that down, encouraging Luke to join him in the dark side. They resolve to confront Palpatine and overthrow him, albeit for different reasons.

  • Perhaps Vader converses with Flashback!Anakin, in an inversion of the Dark Side Cave from ESB. He sees a vision of what he could be had he not turned, looking a lot like David Prowse.

  • The Palpatine-Luke-Vader scenes play much as they do in our ROTJ, albeit with Luke and Vader coming to blows because Vader fears Luke will be too powerful for him. They fight, with Luke almost giving in to the Dark Side after Vader threatens to turn Leia. The rest of the scene plays exactly as it did before, with Vader realizing the good within him and tossing the Emperor into the skyhook’s reactor core.

  • The ground battle plays much as did in our ROTJ, albeit with less cutesiness and more strategy from the Wookies. The shield comes down, with Leia coming around to Chewbacca’s plan and using the Force to help access and destroy the generator. No main characters die here.

  • The rebel fleet attacks the skyhook and the fleet, as Lando leads them to destroy its core. The Executor also severs the skyhook from the planet, as a turned Vader uses the Force to influence Piett to ram the ship.

  • Our ending is the same, albeit with no jealous Han and Ewok cutesiness. The spirit of Anakin (Prowse) appears to Luke, with Leia catching a glimpse of him as well. Music would be a triumphant version of “Luke and Leia.” The camera pans up and into the stars, starting the credits.

TL;DR: Draw out Vader’s turn, have him act in ways that help undo the Empire’s damage, and give him more moments of reflection. A bit Zuko-ish, but it works. Tangentially, give Han more of an arc with Lando and Chewbacca, while also letting Leia use the Force more.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

FreezingTNT2 said:

What is it with people wanting Han to be killed off in Return of the Jedi?

Two reasons. One, I think the finale should have some big sacrifice from one of the characters to make the victory more grounded. Han is one of the most important characters, and we just had a movie dedicated to rescuing him so you’d think he would play a major role in the finale. However, killing Han does ruin the ST. Lando makes the most sense.

BedeHistory731 said:

I like that “two movies” idea a lot! I think I’d go about it a little differently, namely to allow Vader’s redemption a bit more development and show him trying to fess up to his mistakes. I like your ideas, Outbound Flight, so allow me to build off of them.

I love this!

My one suggestion would be giving Vader a bit of larger presence in Episode IV. Maybe the Empire never realizes that Vader is an insider, so he’s reluctantly beside the Emperor following Maul’s death. The two now have a very cold relationship with both nearly certain the other knows they know. Vader doesn’t think he has the strength to kill the Emperor without Luke. Luke won’t kill the Emperor until Vader turns good. I’d do this because right it now just feels like the Emperor is waiting for Vader and Luke to team up and kill him. It doesn’t make much sense to me why the two would fight while the Emperor watches if they both just want to kill the Emperor.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time

That sounds like a good idea to me, keeping Vader within the Empire and taking things down from the inside. Perhaps the Mustafar confrontation could be Luke surrendering to him?

I’m not sure you need to kill off a big-name hero. ROTJ was satisfying without it. Maybe include Akbar in III and kill him in IV? Take inspiration from the story of Admiral Yi, with him dying on the bridge and his subordinates commanding the battle for him.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

BedeHistory731, given that Palpatine is returning in IX, then here’s my suggestions:

When Luke attacks Vader, he slashes off his helmet, as we see his scarred head. After seeing his scarred head and cut-off mechanical hand, the “I will never turn to the Dark Side!” scene and Palpatine electrocuting Luke stays the same, but Vader fights off Palpatine and as Luke escapes. Vader slashes Palpatine, as we discover that the latter is actually a Force projection (like Luke in TLJ, except that Palpatine is able to interact with other things as a projection), before he continues electrocuting Vader until he is defeated. Palpatine speaks with the remaining Imperials and orders them to meet him in the Unknown Regions to rebuild the Empire (Vader witnesses the hologram discussion as he dies).

Palpatine’s flagship is destroyed, as the remaining Imperials flee to the Unknown Regions. Upon returning to the Wookie homeworld, Anakin’s ghost appears to Luke and warns him that Palpatine will return and the Empire will rebuild in the Unknown Regions. Luke tells Leia and Han about this, as he comes up with a plan to rebuild the Jedi Order while Han and Leia reform the Republic to fight against the rebuilt Empire as it becomes stronger than ever. This would set up the sequel trilogy.

In the sequel trilogy, we have no Snoke: instead, it is Sidious, possibly on the verge of death. When Kylo kills Sidious in TLJ, Sidious’ spirit takes possession of someone (maybe Hux or one of the Knights of Ren or even a Sith acolyte), and the final battle in IX has Rey and Kylo fighting off Sidious and the Knights of Ren (who were loyal to him all along). The Sith acolyte is killed, and, just like in an old post-teaser rumor, takes possession of Kylo, who urges Rey to kill him, and sacrifices himself to get rid of Sidious once and for all.

(That way, we won’t have the whole “bringing back Sidious” thing undermine Anakin’s sacrifice. Also I plan on making remakes for the Star Wars films [not rewrites, but actual remakes] with this)

What do you think?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

My write-up has no sequel trilogy. If it did, it’d be the Thrawn Trilogy.