Grievous figure, i.e. the new charismatic vilain
We just going to ignore this?
Oh yeah sorry, I wrote it in French: I meant to write “villain”, with two “l”. “Vilain” is the French spelling.
I think he meant how you referred to Grievous as a compelling villain!
I wrote “charismatic”, which he is (even if I tend to think more of Tartakovsky’s ultimate badass version than Lucas), not “compelling”.
It seems like a very George idea. I’m still skeptical (at best) of it, but thinking on it there’s probably a way to do it that’d be really cool and actually benefit the thematic through line of the trilogy and saga as a whole. If he’s just the big bad reborn again, that’ll be silly. But if he’s more of a specter, if it’s more about the long shadow that he cast and maybe his spirit is playing some role to carry out his legacy, it’d make sense if that’s one of the final sort of challenges that these characters have to overcome.
Nothing in Lucas Star Wars Saga supports he would have resurrected a character that way. Maul wasn’t his idea. It’s a very JJ idea on the contrary (i.e. trying to look cool while making silly mmies such as TFA…).
Am I crazy? Wasn’t Maul entirely Lucas’s idea?
Grievous figure, i.e. the new charismatic vilain
We just going to ignore this?
Oh yeah sorry, I wrote it in French: I meant to write “villain”, with two “l”. “Vilain” is the French spelling.
I think he meant how you referred to Grievous as a compelling villain!
I wrote “charismatic”, which he is (even if I tend to think more of Tartakovsky’s ultimate badass version than Lucas), not “compelling”.
Maybe the word means something else in French.
Here is a part of the interview with the Dark Empire author.
TOM: Our original proposal was to bring back Darth Vader’s costume and mask, with somebody else inside it. We felt the Empire would want to maintain the fearsome image of Vader and wouldn’t much care who was wearing the armor and breathing mask. George vetoed that idea (although he did allow us to have Vader appear in dreams and memories). He said, no, you can’t bring back the Vader costume…but if you can figure out how to bring back the Emperor, that’s o.k.
The obvious way to bring back the Emperor was with cloning, which George immediately approved.
Now, Zahn has said in an interview that bringing back the Emperor goes against the story of Return of the Jedi, where we see the Emperor destroyed by Darth Vader. But Zahn misses something essential about that scene: When the Emperor dares Luke to “strike me down”, he seems utterly indifferent to his own death! He feels that whatever the outcome of this confrontation with Luke, he, Palpatine, will conquer.
http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/08/interview-with-dark-empire-writer-tom.html?m=1
It seems like a very George idea. I’m still skeptical (at best) of it, but thinking on it there’s probably a way to do it that’d be really cool and actually benefit the thematic through line of the trilogy and saga as a whole. If he’s just the big bad reborn again, that’ll be silly. But if he’s more of a specter, if it’s more about the long shadow that he cast and maybe his spirit is playing some role to carry out his legacy, it’d make sense if that’s one of the final sort of challenges that these characters have to overcome.
Nothing in Lucas Star Wars Saga supports he would have resurrected a character that way. Maul wasn’t his idea. It’s a very JJ idea on the contrary (i.e. trying to look cool while making silly mmies such as TFA…).
Am I crazy? Wasn’t Maul entirely Lucas’s idea?
His resurection in TCW ? I thought it was Filoni’s idea. I may be wrong. But Lucas certainly not the one who made him appear in a subsequent movie (Kasdan and Howard did…).
Here is a part of the interview with the Dark Empire author.
TOM: Our original proposal was to bring back Darth Vader’s costume and mask, with somebody else inside it. We felt the Empire would want to maintain the fearsome image of Vader and wouldn’t much care who was wearing the armor and breathing mask. George vetoed that idea (although he did allow us to have Vader appear in dreams and memories). He said, no, you can’t bring back the Vader costume…but if you can figure out how to bring back the Emperor, that’s o.k.
The obvious way to bring back the Emperor was with cloning, which George immediately approved.
Now, Zahn has said in an interview that bringing back the Emperor goes against the story of Return of the Jedi, where we see the Emperor destroyed by Darth Vader. But Zahn misses something essential about that scene: When the Emperor dares Luke to “strike me down”, he seems utterly indifferent to his own death! He feels that whatever the outcome of this confrontation with Luke, he, Palpatine, will conquer.
http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/08/interview-with-dark-empire-writer-tom.html?m=1
Yeah, a clone of a character isn’t the character itself. And it’s in a book (no longer canon). Not in a movie Lucas made.
Interesting to read that Lucas was against the idea of bringing a (lame) wanabe Vader’s figure. Something Kasdan and JJ eventually did (Kylo Ren, lame in TFA, way better in TLJ), which was a very bad idea Rian tried to fix (“remove this stupid mask”); but sadly JJ is directing again for the finale 😕
It seems like a very George idea. I’m still skeptical (at best) of it, but thinking on it there’s probably a way to do it that’d be really cool and actually benefit the thematic through line of the trilogy and saga as a whole. If he’s just the big bad reborn again, that’ll be silly. But if he’s more of a specter, if it’s more about the long shadow that he cast and maybe his spirit is playing some role to carry out his legacy, it’d make sense if that’s one of the final sort of challenges that these characters have to overcome.
Nothing in Lucas Star Wars Saga supports he would have resurrected a character that way. Maul wasn’t his idea. It’s a very JJ idea on the contrary (i.e. trying to look cool while making silly mmies such as TFA…).
Am I crazy? Wasn’t Maul entirely Lucas’s idea?
His resurection in TCW ? I thought it was Filoni’s idea. I may be wrong.
Google search tells me yes (https://ew.com/article/2011/10/12/star-wars-clone-wars-darth-maul/):
Filoni acknowledges that the order to resurrect the Sith Lord came from George Lucas himself
Worth mentioning that Lucas declared Boba Fett not dead too.
But Lucas certainly not the one who made him appear in a subsequent movie (Kasdan and Howard did…).
…so?
Here is a part of the interview with the Dark Empire author.
TOM: Our original proposal was to bring back Darth Vader’s costume and mask, with somebody else inside it. We felt the Empire would want to maintain the fearsome image of Vader and wouldn’t much care who was wearing the armor and breathing mask. George vetoed that idea (although he did allow us to have Vader appear in dreams and memories). He said, no, you can’t bring back the Vader costume…but if you can figure out how to bring back the Emperor, that’s o.k.
The obvious way to bring back the Emperor was with cloning, which George immediately approved.
Now, Zahn has said in an interview that bringing back the Emperor goes against the story of Return of the Jedi, where we see the Emperor destroyed by Darth Vader. But Zahn misses something essential about that scene: When the Emperor dares Luke to “strike me down”, he seems utterly indifferent to his own death! He feels that whatever the outcome of this confrontation with Luke, he, Palpatine, will conquer.
http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/08/interview-with-dark-empire-writer-tom.html?m=1
Yeah, a clone of a character isn’t the character itself. And it’s in a book (no longer canon). Not in a movie Lucas made.
The point is that Lucas was for the idea then so it’s not hard to see why he might be again later. I’m not sure why it really matters either way, just speculating. Evidence says it’s not unreasonable to suspect Lucas could have come up with the idea (yes, also possible he didn’t). Worth mentioning too that beyond those initial treatments he wrote, JJ also met with him before he started writing IX.
Interesting to read that Lucas was against the idea of bringing a (lame) wanabe Vader’s figure. Something Kasdan and JJ eventually did (Kylo Ren, lame in TFA, way better in TLJ), which was a very bad idea Rian tried to fix (“remove this stupid mask”); but sadly JJ is directing again for the finale 😕
A version of the Kylo Ren character was born out of Lucas’s ST treatments. Not exactly the same character, but considering you think that having a mask is what makes him lame, I should mention that it was a masked character in George’s version.
Yeah, I think Filoni was initially reluctant to bring Maul back, but it came from George.
I also am not sure if George wanted the Jedi Killer to copy his look from Vader, but it does seem like the Jedi Killer was meant to be the son of Han and Leia (which was revealed to the Visualists in Summer of 2013). It is possible though that was a Michael Ardnt idea. But the Jedi Killer being the grandson of Darth Vader at least rationalized the character’s desire to emulate Vader, even in appearance.
Yeah, I think Filoni was initially reluctant to bring Maul back, but it came from George.
I also am not sure if George wanted the Jedi Killer to copy his look from Vader, but it does seem like the Jedi Killer was meant to be the son of Han and Leia (which was revealed to the Visualists in Summer of 2013). It is possible though that was a Michael Ardnt idea. But the Jedi Killer being the grandson of Darth Vader at least rationalized the character’s desire to emulate Vader, even in appearance.
Sure, but rational, logical, thematically compelling storytelling doesn’t matter if Mala doesn’t personally like it.
Grievous figure, i.e. the new charismatic vilain
We just going to ignore this?
Oh yeah sorry, I wrote it in French: I meant to write “villain”, with two “l”. “Vilain” is the French spelling.
I think he meant how you referred to Grievous as a compelling villain!
I real disappointing aspect about Grievous is that he wasn’t portrayed nearly as serious and brutal as he was in Genndy Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars micro-series moving forward.
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
Didn’t the micro series air slightly ahead of Episode III? Coming off of that impression of Grevious into the movie version would be a letdown.
Where were you in '77?
If Palpatine could come back from exploding, he is firmly in ‘The Master’ territory and there’s no hope of believing he’s ever gone for good.
I seem to recall that Lucas circa 2005 through TCW was adamant that Sith could not survive death. The one that appeared to Yoda was an apparition only.
And, yes, I know Lucas changes his mind on these things more often than his clothes. But, I hope he sticks with that idea and that JJ and company do, too.
If Palpatine is The Master then who is his Torgo? 😛
Where were you in '77?
Didn’t the micro series air slightly ahead of Episode III? Coming off of that impression of Grevious into the movie version would be a letdown.
The Clone Wars > Clone Wars
If Palpatine is The Master then who is his Torgo? 😛
His sled.
Do you even know what I’m referencing?
Where were you in '77?
TiddySprinklesPimpBillion said:
The Clone Wars > Clone Wars
Fight me. 😛
Didn’t the micro series air slightly ahead of Episode III? Coming off of that impression of Grevious into the movie version would be a letdown.
Yes, the micro-series aired from 2003 to 2005, ending not long before Revenge of the Sith was released. The micro-series was the very first appearance Grievous made too.
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
Didn’t the micro series air slightly ahead of Episode III? Coming off of that impression of Grevious into the movie version would be a letdown.
Yes, the micro-series aired from 2003 to 2005, ending not long before Revenge of the Sith was released. The micro-series was the very first appearance Grievous made too.
Thanks for an actual answer. 😃
Where were you in '77?
And from what I understood they only had concept art for Grievous to go off of, so they had to invent his personality on their own.
But to be fair, I understand why George wanted to make this General character a mustache-twirling villain that runs away and gets beat over and over. It fits into that villain archetype of old serials. I don’t think people would have been as disappointed if Grievous had just been set up that way in the micro-series as well.
Growing up I always rationalized the characterization difference as Grievous being pretty powerful right after his transformation, but slowly became weaker as his remaining organics struggled to exist within his cyborg body.
And from what I understood they only had concept art for Grievous to go off of, so they had to invent his personality on their own.
But to be fair, I understand why George wanted to make this General character a mustache-twirling villain that runs away and gets beat over and over. It fits into that villain archetype of old serials. I don’t think people would have been as disappointed if Grievous had just been set up that way in the micro-series as well.
Growing up I always rationalized the characterization difference as Grievous being pretty powerful right after his transformation, but slowly became weaker as his remaining organics struggled to exist within his cyborg body.
At the end of the micro series he gets injured by Mace, which presumably causes his cough, and which I interpreted as a kid to inform his more cautious demeanor in ROTS. Honestly I don’t even have that much of a problem with how Grievous is portrayed in ROTS. Just don’t think “charismatic” is a word that applies to him.
Do you even know what I’m referencing?
No and it better not be more Star Wars.
TiddySprinklesPimpBillion said:
Do you even know what I’m referencing?
No and it better not be more Star Wars.
It’s from a movie called Manos: The Hands of Fate.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
Going back to IX, I had some other thoughts regarding Snoke’s function in the ST.
All of the speculation surrounding the Palpatine has made people wonder if Snoke was a servant, vessel, or rival to him.
Looking back at some early concept art from the TFA book, you can see three antagonists appear pretty early in the book: Jedi Killer, Uber, and another character that appears to be Darth Talon.
George was a big fan of Talon when she appeared in the Legacy comic series, and he wanted LucasArts to somehow shoehorn her into a Darth Maul that was subsequently cancelled during the Disney acquisition. In the Art of book, there are four storyboard panels titled “The Seduction”. The first panel shows a young Jedi saving a female twilek from cantina thugs, the second shows them walking together, the third they are sharing a bed after having slept together, and the fourth shows the twilek standing in the threshold of the bedroom while the Jedi appears to be under some kind of duress (possibly Force-induced).
I had assumed Talon was just an early version of the Jedi Killer, but I’ve also been wondering if that Jedi is actually the Son of Solo, and this is how he became evil. He was literally seduced by the dark side. Art of Talon appears a few times in the book.
There is another image of Darth Talon standing in front of a dark, ethereal creature who we can assume is Uber. The piece is titled “Darth Talon, Dark Side of the Force”. The description McCaig gives is, “The tattoos [of Talon] are a lot simpler. They follow a rhythm and they flow. And that’s the evil thing puppeteering her from behind.”
I’ve just always assumed this Talon was cut from the story and the Uber character ended up becoming Snoke, and I think that’s partly true. But, do you think if Palpatine returning was in fact intended from the beginning as Kennedy suggests, is it possible this ethereal Uber “puppetmaster” character was actually disembodied Palpatine, and Snoke served Darth Talon’s function as the “seducer”?
Snoke clearly played a big role in Ben’s fall to the dark side, but instead of literally seducing him, he became much more like a Palpatine type of manipulator. I believe I read somewhere that Snoke was at one point considered to be a female character, so maybe this is what they meant by that.
If Snoke was truly intended to never be the big bad, it would also explain why pulled imagery from the Wizard of Oz, a larger than life hologram in TFA, the Man Behind the Curtain symbolism with the red curtains burning down after Snoke’s death.
This is all wild speculation and obviously things change so much over the course of story development that trying to connect the dots is like playing pin the tail on the donkey, but it is fun to think about. If Sidious is back and not just a haunt or hologram, I’m still not sure if Snoke was knowingly serving him, or was a vessel for his spirit, or something else. I still believe it is the simplest answer: Snoke was his own guy, and if Palpatine is manipulating Kylo Ren, he merely positioned him to become his apprentice and eliminate this rival before he came back physically. (Snoke is just another rival, like Mother Talzin in the Clone Wars)
I’m still a little nervous about how they pull this off because resorting to another Big Evil Guy was not what I was originally hoping for. But it could work.
And from what I understood they only had concept art for Grievous to go off of, so they had to invent his personality on their own.
But to be fair, I understand why George wanted to make this General character a mustache-twirling villain that runs away and gets beat over and over. It fits into that villain archetype of old serials. I don’t think people would have been as disappointed if Grievous had just been set up that way in the micro-series as well.
Growing up I always rationalized the characterization difference as Grievous being pretty powerful right after his transformation, but slowly became weaker as his remaining organics struggled to exist within his cyborg body.
Only the serials I’ve seen have better villains. Grevious doesn’t hold a candle to Ming the Merciless!
Where were you in '77?
TiddySprinklesPimpBillion said:
Do you even know what I’m referencing?
No and it better not be more Star Wars.
And if it was?
Where were you in '77?