And if you’re going by prequel “rules,” they (or at least Obi-Wan) believed that Luke - or at least, one of Anakin’s children - was the Chosen One, rather than Anakin himself as they’d all believed before. So, by buying into the prophecy, yeah, he would’ve seen Luke as the “last hope.”
I’m glad that the new movies are completely am bonding the mentions of a “prophecy” and “the chosen one.” It was never mentioned in the original trilogy, so why did Lucas introduce it in the prequels. So rather than killing Palpatine because he loved his son, Vader killed him because the “prophecy” foretold that he would “bring balance to the Force.”
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
While leaving your expectations at the door works well enough, there’s nothing to subvert in that case. Personally, I just go in with realistic expectations. Have yet to be disappointed. I may have hated Solo, but I wasn’t expecting much to begin with.
Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?
If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”
The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TFA was designed to be a safe bet, so it’s sequel, regardless of who directed it or wrote, would, by nature, have to be the one to turn everything upside down/ spin everything on it’s head, no matter what. Yes, I am aware that threads like Kylo killing Snoke one movie ahead of schedule and Rey being a nobody were already in place as TFA was being developed. Yes, I’m aware JJ or whoever would have followed through with those “twists” in the second movie regardless. All I was saying is that the second movie in the ST would have to be the one to “burn everything down” no matter what, so that was always going to piss a certain group of both Gen X’ers as well as Millennials off, for different reasons.
I did leave my expectations at the door for TLJ, and ended up really enjoying it (for the most part). I was also in awe at the throne room sequence, as well as Luke’s projection reveal. I thought those were both the right screenwriting choices for those moments, and yes, my audience applauded during both scenes as well. When discussing the divisive reaction of the film, I’m not referring to my own personal feelings about TLJ, I’m just speaking on behalf of the very loud and vocal group of people who DID dislike it, so that all sides of the argument are considered in my thesis.
For what it’s worth, I do think TLJ’s “shake up” nature was the plan all along, and I think IX will bring everything full circle and restore us all to a sense of familiarity once again. I agree that, the more people learn to leave personal expectations at the door, the better these movies will feel. Regardless of that, I think IX will be really good. It’ll probably be received slightly better than TLJ, at least, and win back at least a little bit of the jaded part of the fandom, to make them feel like the ST was worth it all along. That’s all just a gut assumption on my part, though. We’ll see what really happens.
http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/full-circle-order-new-way-to-watch-star.html?m=1
Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?
If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”
The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TFA was designed to be a safe bet, so it’s sequel, regardless of who directed it or wrote, would, by nature, have to be the one to turn everything upside down/ spin everything on it’s head, no matter what. Yes, I am aware that threads like Kylo killing Snoke one movie ahead of schedule and Rey being a nobody were already in place as TFA was being developed. Yes, I’m aware JJ or whoever would have followed through with those “twists” in the second movie regardless. All I was saying is that the second movie in the ST would have to be the one to “burn everything down” no matter what, so that was always going to piss a certain group of both Gen X’ers as well as Millennials off, for different reasons.
I did leave my expectations at the door for TLJ, and ended up really enjoying it (for the most part). I was also in awe at the throne room sequence, as well as Luke’s projection reveal. I thought those were both the right screenwriting choices for those moments, and yes, my audience applauded during both scenes as well. When discussing the divisive reaction of the film, I’m not referring to my own personal feelings about TLJ, I’m just speaking on behalf of the very loud and vocal group of people who DID dislike it, so that all sides of the argument are considered in my thesis.
For what it’s worth, I do think TLJ’s “shake up” nature was the plan all along, and I think IX will bring everything full circle and restore us all to a sense of familiarity once again. I agree that, the more people learn to leave personal expectations at the door, the better these movies will feel. Regardless of that, I think IX will be really good. It’ll probably be received slightly better than TLJ, at least, and win back at least a little bit of the jaded part of the fandom, to make them feel like the ST was worth it all along. That’s all just a gut assumption on my part, though. We’ll see what really happens.
Okay. Sorry. I just misread you. I hope you’re just as excited for Episode IX as I am!
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?
If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”
The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TFA was designed to be a safe bet, so it’s sequel, regardless of who directed it or wrote, would, by nature, have to be the one to turn everything upside down/ spin everything on it’s head, no matter what. Yes, I am aware that threads like Kylo killing Snoke one movie ahead of schedule and Rey being a nobody were already in place as TFA was being developed. Yes, I’m aware JJ or whoever would have followed through with those “twists” in the second movie regardless. All I was saying is that the second movie in the ST would have to be the one to “burn everything down” no matter what, so that was always going to piss a certain group of both Gen X’ers as well as Millennials off, for different reasons.
I did leave my expectations at the door for TLJ, and ended up really enjoying it (for the most part). I was also in awe at the throne room sequence, as well as Luke’s projection reveal. I thought those were both the right screenwriting choices for those moments, and yes, my audience applauded during both scenes as well. When discussing the divisive reaction of the film, I’m not referring to my own personal feelings about TLJ, I’m just speaking on behalf of the very loud and vocal group of people who DID dislike it, so that all sides of the argument are considered in my thesis.
For what it’s worth, I do think TLJ’s “shake up” nature was the plan all along, and I think IX will bring everything full circle and restore us all to a sense of familiarity once again. I agree that, the more people learn to leave personal expectations at the door, the better these movies will feel. Regardless of that, I think IX will be really good. It’ll probably be received slightly better than TLJ, at least, and win back at least a little bit of the jaded part of the fandom, to make them feel like the ST was worth it all along. That’s all just a gut assumption on my part, though. We’ll see what really happens.
Okay. Sorry. I just misread you. I hope you’re just as excited for Episode IX as I am!
No worries! I have a funny way of talking, so I think it’s normal for people to misread my opinions.
Indeed I am excited for IX! Hopefully the rumor is true that the title will be revealed today.
http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/full-circle-order-new-way-to-watch-star.html?m=1
Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?
If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”
The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TFA was designed to be a safe bet, so it’s sequel, regardless of who directed it or wrote, would, by nature, have to be the one to turn everything upside down/ spin everything on it’s head, no matter what. Yes, I am aware that threads like Kylo killing Snoke one movie ahead of schedule and Rey being a nobody were already in place as TFA was being developed. Yes, I’m aware JJ or whoever would have followed through with those “twists” in the second movie regardless. All I was saying is that the second movie in the ST would have to be the one to “burn everything down” no matter what, so that was always going to piss a certain group of both Gen X’ers as well as Millennials off, for different reasons.
I did leave my expectations at the door for TLJ, and ended up really enjoying it (for the most part). I was also in awe at the throne room sequence, as well as Luke’s projection reveal. I thought those were both the right screenwriting choices for those moments, and yes, my audience applauded during both scenes as well. When discussing the divisive reaction of the film, I’m not referring to my own personal feelings about TLJ, I’m just speaking on behalf of the very loud and vocal group of people who DID dislike it, so that all sides of the argument are considered in my thesis.
For what it’s worth, I do think TLJ’s “shake up” nature was the plan all along, and I think IX will bring everything full circle and restore us all to a sense of familiarity once again. I agree that, the more people learn to leave personal expectations at the door, the better these movies will feel. Regardless of that, I think IX will be really good. It’ll probably be received slightly better than TLJ, at least, and win back at least a little bit of the jaded part of the fandom, to make them feel like the ST was worth it all along. That’s all just a gut assumption on my part, though. We’ll see what really happens.
Okay. Sorry. I just misread you. I hope you’re just as excited for Episode IX as I am!
No worries! I have a funny way of talking, so I think it’s normal for people to misread my opinions.
Indeed I am excited for IX! Hopefully the rumor is true that the title will be revealed today.
Today!? No way! I never heard this rumor!
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?
If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”
The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TFA was designed to be a safe bet, so it’s sequel, regardless of who directed it or wrote, would, by nature, have to be the one to turn everything upside down/ spin everything on it’s head, no matter what. Yes, I am aware that threads like Kylo killing Snoke one movie ahead of schedule and Rey being a nobody were already in place as TFA was being developed. Yes, I’m aware JJ or whoever would have followed through with those “twists” in the second movie regardless. All I was saying is that the second movie in the ST would have to be the one to “burn everything down” no matter what, so that was always going to piss a certain group of both Gen X’ers as well as Millennials off, for different reasons.
I did leave my expectations at the door for TLJ, and ended up really enjoying it (for the most part). I was also in awe at the throne room sequence, as well as Luke’s projection reveal. I thought those were both the right screenwriting choices for those moments, and yes, my audience applauded during both scenes as well. When discussing the divisive reaction of the film, I’m not referring to my own personal feelings about TLJ, I’m just speaking on behalf of the very loud and vocal group of people who DID dislike it, so that all sides of the argument are considered in my thesis.
For what it’s worth, I do think TLJ’s “shake up” nature was the plan all along, and I think IX will bring everything full circle and restore us all to a sense of familiarity once again. I agree that, the more people learn to leave personal expectations at the door, the better these movies will feel. Regardless of that, I think IX will be really good. It’ll probably be received slightly better than TLJ, at least, and win back at least a little bit of the jaded part of the fandom, to make them feel like the ST was worth it all along. That’s all just a gut assumption on my part, though. We’ll see what really happens.
Okay. Sorry. I just misread you. I hope you’re just as excited for Episode IX as I am!
No worries! I have a funny way of talking, so I think it’s normal for people to misread my opinions.
Indeed I am excited for IX! Hopefully the rumor is true that the title will be revealed today.
Today!? No way! I never heard this rumor!
I heard a rumor that it would be today on The Star Wars Show but I don’t know. It might be B.S.
http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/full-circle-order-new-way-to-watch-star.html?m=1
Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?
If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”
The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TFA was designed to be a safe bet, so it’s sequel, regardless of who directed it or wrote, would, by nature, have to be the one to turn everything upside down/ spin everything on it’s head, no matter what. Yes, I am aware that threads like Kylo killing Snoke one movie ahead of schedule and Rey being a nobody were already in place as TFA was being developed. Yes, I’m aware JJ or whoever would have followed through with those “twists” in the second movie regardless. All I was saying is that the second movie in the ST would have to be the one to “burn everything down” no matter what, so that was always going to piss a certain group of both Gen X’ers as well as Millennials off, for different reasons.
I did leave my expectations at the door for TLJ, and ended up really enjoying it (for the most part). I was also in awe at the throne room sequence, as well as Luke’s projection reveal. I thought those were both the right screenwriting choices for those moments, and yes, my audience applauded during both scenes as well. When discussing the divisive reaction of the film, I’m not referring to my own personal feelings about TLJ, I’m just speaking on behalf of the very loud and vocal group of people who DID dislike it, so that all sides of the argument are considered in my thesis.
For what it’s worth, I do think TLJ’s “shake up” nature was the plan all along, and I think IX will bring everything full circle and restore us all to a sense of familiarity once again. I agree that, the more people learn to leave personal expectations at the door, the better these movies will feel. Regardless of that, I think IX will be really good. It’ll probably be received slightly better than TLJ, at least, and win back at least a little bit of the jaded part of the fandom, to make them feel like the ST was worth it all along. That’s all just a gut assumption on my part, though. We’ll see what really happens.
Okay. Sorry. I just misread you. I hope you’re just as excited for Episode IX as I am!
No worries! I have a funny way of talking, so I think it’s normal for people to misread my opinions.
Indeed I am excited for IX! Hopefully the rumor is true that the title will be revealed today.
Today!? No way! I never heard this rumor!
I heard a rumor that it would be today on The Star Wars Show but I don’t know. It might be B.S.
Maybe. At least maybe later this week.
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
Shopping Maul said:
Look, the whole Force thing is as elastic as anyone wants it to be. I just think the reason so many fans are up in arms about Rey’s instant and consequence-free power levels is that the previous films greatly imply a deep and difficult learning curve with regards to the Force. Also, the OT has the Force (and Jedi) as something forgotten and elusive and even snickered at. If Force-powers really did pop up everywhere like the ST implies, surely someone like Vader wouldn’t have wielded the terrifying influence he did in TESB. Wouldn’t there be a reasonable number of Imperial officers who just happened to be pretty good at levitation or Force-choking (perhaps they saw Vader do it and learned it instantly like Rey did) that could defy Lord Vader’s many homicidal tantrums? No, Vader was the last personification of a forgotten art. It’s not like Admiral Ozzel could turn to his fellow officers and say “look, don’t worry about Vader. My kid Force-choked his teacher the other day. Anyone can do this s##t”.Making the Force - which is/was the spiritual backbone of the series - something easily dealt with and more or less unlimited diminishes it and, by extension, Luke Skywalker’s journey.
Except that in ANH and TESB, we don’t see Luke having any real difficulty learning the force. No more than Rey does in TFA. Luke easily lifts his saber (without any lessons) and only has issues when he perceives the X-wing as too big to lift (and he did move it, just didn’t finish lifting it out). Rey does not just pick things up. She doesn’t show any force skills until Kylo tries to pull the location of BB-8 from her. Assuming that her ability with the force was there all along and just under used as with Luke and Anakin, she would be able to sense what he was doing and then she turned it back on him (not very successful at first). Then she used the mind trick on a stormtrooper and had to struggle to do it right. Not once did Rey just suddenly start doing something without Kylo teaching it to her, and rarely perfect the first time. In their lightsaber duel we see her using her extant fighting skills (as seen in the beginning of the film) and the Kylo says he can teach her that she needs to use the force. Well, thanks to him she had kind of figured that out and puts the pieces together and ends up whipping his injured ass. In TLJ when they both fight the room full of Praetorian guards, Kylo is pitted against more of them than she is. They both come out in the end, but Kylo had the tougher job. So no where does Rey just pull a force power out of her ass as Luke did in the Wampa cave and she does have a learning curve that pretty much matches Lukes the few times we see him learn something new.
So this idea that Luke had this huge learning curve to be able to actually do anything is a joke. It misrepresents the OT horribly. What is true is that Luke had doubts to overcome about just have far the force could take him (lifting an X-wing). And nowhere in the OT is it stated that the force is unique to a select few. The force is in everybody, but it only manifests itself strong enough for a few to become a Jedi. But those few can come from anywhere. The OT never gives us the lineage of any of the three people strong with the force (excluding Luke). In the PT it is implied that the Jedi find those who are strong with the force, train them, and as part of the code, they are celibate. So there is no lineage for them to continue. It is implied that Padme’s pregnancy is as bad or worse than their marriage in terms of violating the code. And when you think about what was revealed logically, the Jedi are weakening the light side by forbidding the strongest in the force from reproducing. They are so scared of the temptation of the dark side that they have walled themselves off and after a thousand generations, they are fooled and beaten by a Sith lord. Their ability to use the force had weakened. The PT is full of things the Jedi did wrong and in TLJ we have that put into words by a bitter Luke. Part of what Yoda admonished him would be to pass on what he learned of how the Jedi failed. Not to let the Jedi die, but for the new order to fix the flaws of the old.
I think that it is pretty clear that the endgame of IX is going to be the reestablishing of balance. How they do that is a mystery at the moment. But the ideas go back to ANH and Abrams and Johnson have been true to the original in every way I can see. This idea that Luke had such problems and had a steep learning curve just isn’t true to the OT. One thing I have found is that Lucas did not just use Samurai cinema as an inspiration, but actual samurai lore as inspiration. From that we can see that a young hotshot can rise up and defeat supposed great masters, but even that young hotshot will face increasing challenges and must always strive to improve. So learning to be a samurai is a never ending lesson meaning that becoming a Jedi is similarly a never ending lesson. So to get to where Yoda was literally takes a lifetime, but a young person can learn what they need to start that journey in a short time. But they need to continually seek to improve. So the long training Lucas always has talked about is true for all and never ends, but does not preclude those who start out high in skills.
Taking the fighting skills to another area, we are introduced to Rey as a fighter. She is already very far ahead of Luke in that area. As a skilled fighter, she would have already learned Ben’s first lesson - to let go your conscious self and act on instinct. That can be learned from a lot of physical activities. And when you really look at the stories of Luke, Anakin, and Rey; Rey is taking the same journey and has the same level of success as Luke. But instead of freeing the galaxy from the tyranny of Palpatine and the Sith, she is up against Kylo and the task of balancing the force. She isn’t fast tracked any more than Luke was. Both are on the Hero’s journey. I think the biggest problems OT fans are having is coming to terms with Luke, Han, and Leia being the Ben and Yoda side of this trilogy. This is the Rey, Finn, Poe trilogy like the PT was the Anakin, Padme, Obi-wan trilogy.
Shopping Maul said:
Look, the whole Force thing is as elastic as anyone wants it to be. I just think the reason so many fans are up in arms about Rey’s instant and consequence-free power levels is that the previous films greatly imply a deep and difficult learning curve with regards to the Force. Also, the OT has the Force (and Jedi) as something forgotten and elusive and even snickered at. If Force-powers really did pop up everywhere like the ST implies, surely someone like Vader wouldn’t have wielded the terrifying influence he did in TESB. Wouldn’t there be a reasonable number of Imperial officers who just happened to be pretty good at levitation or Force-choking (perhaps they saw Vader do it and learned it instantly like Rey did) that could defy Lord Vader’s many homicidal tantrums? No, Vader was the last personification of a forgotten art. It’s not like Admiral Ozzel could turn to his fellow officers and say “look, don’t worry about Vader. My kid Force-choked his teacher the other day. Anyone can do this s##t”.Making the Force - which is/was the spiritual backbone of the series - something easily dealt with and more or less unlimited diminishes it and, by extension, Luke Skywalker’s journey.
Except that in ANH and TESB, we don’t see Luke having any real difficulty learning the force. No more than Rey does in TFA. Luke easily lifts his saber (without any lessons) and only has issues when he perceives the X-wing as too big to lift (and he did move it, just didn’t finish lifting it out). Rey does not just pick things up. She doesn’t show any force skills until Kylo tries to pull the location of BB-8 from her. Assuming that her ability with the force was there all along and just under used as with Luke and Anakin, she would be able to sense what he was doing and then she turned it back on him (not very successful at first). Then she used the mind trick on a stormtrooper and had to struggle to do it right. Not once did Rey just suddenly start doing something without Kylo teaching it to her, and rarely perfect the first time. In their lightsaber duel we see her using her extant fighting skills (as seen in the beginning of the film) and the Kylo says he can teach her that she needs to use the force. Well, thanks to him she had kind of figured that out and puts the pieces together and ends up whipping his injured ass. In TLJ when they both fight the room full of Praetorian guards, Kylo is pitted against more of them than she is. They both come out in the end, but Kylo had the tougher job. So no where does Rey just pull a force power out of her ass as Luke did in the Wampa cave and she does have a learning curve that pretty much matches Lukes the few times we see him learn something new.
So this idea that Luke had this huge learning curve to be able to actually do anything is a joke. It misrepresents the OT horribly. What is true is that Luke had doubts to overcome about just have far the force could take him (lifting an X-wing). And nowhere in the OT is it stated that the force is unique to a select few. The force is in everybody, but it only manifests itself strong enough for a few to become a Jedi. But those few can come from anywhere. The OT never gives us the lineage of any of the three people strong with the force (excluding Luke). In the PT it is implied that the Jedi find those who are strong with the force, train them, and as part of the code, they are celibate. So there is no lineage for them to continue. It is implied that Padme’s pregnancy is as bad or worse than their marriage in terms of violating the code. And when you think about what was revealed logically, the Jedi are weakening the light side by forbidding the strongest in the force from reproducing. They are so scared of the temptation of the dark side that they have walled themselves off and after a thousand generations, they are fooled and beaten by a Sith lord. Their ability to use the force had weakened. The PT is full of things the Jedi did wrong and in TLJ we have that put into words by a bitter Luke. Part of what Yoda admonished him would be to pass on what he learned of how the Jedi failed. Not to let the Jedi die, but for the new order to fix the flaws of the old.
I think that it is pretty clear that the endgame of IX is going to be the reestablishing of balance. How they do that is a mystery at the moment. But the ideas go back to ANH and Abrams and Johnson have been true to the original in every way I can see. This idea that Luke had such problems and had a steep learning curve just isn’t true to the OT. One thing I have found is that Lucas did not just use Samurai cinema as an inspiration, but actual samurai lore as inspiration. From that we can see that a young hotshot can rise up and defeat supposed great masters, but even that young hotshot will face increasing challenges and must always strive to improve. So learning to be a samurai is a never ending lesson meaning that becoming a Jedi is similarly a never ending lesson. So to get to where Yoda was literally takes a lifetime, but a young person can learn what they need to start that journey in a short time. But they need to continually seek to improve. So the long training Lucas always has talked about is true for all and never ends, but does not preclude those who start out high in skills.
Taking the fighting skills to another area, we are introduced to Rey as a fighter. She is already very far ahead of Luke in that area. As a skilled fighter, she would have already learned Ben’s first lesson - to let go your conscious self and act on instinct. That can be learned from a lot of physical activities. And when you really look at the stories of Luke, Anakin, and Rey; Rey is taking the same journey and has the same level of success as Luke. But instead of freeing the galaxy from the tyranny of Palpatine and the Sith, she is up against Kylo and the task of balancing the force. She isn’t fast tracked any more than Luke was. Both are on the Hero’s journey. I think the biggest problems OT fans are having is coming to terms with Luke, Han, and Leia being the Ben and Yoda side of this trilogy. This is the Rey, Finn, Poe trilogy like the PT was the Anakin, Padme, Obi-wan trilogy.
I strongly disagree that Rey is/was no more fastracked than Luke. TESB is entirely about Luke’s struggle and consequent failure. He goes to Yoda all guns blazing and is absolutely humbled. Rey nails everything without effort and suffers no failures at all.
For example, imagine how cool it would’ve been if Rey had lost to Kylo in TFA (perhaps he looks into her mind and, sensing something special, spares her life). This way she would have been shown that being a Jedi is about more than just kicking ass, that her rudimentary (and aggressive) survival skills pale next to the pure flow and finesse of a trained Force user. This would give her somewhere to go, much in the same way that Luke learned that being a Jedi was so much more than just fencing lessons from a ‘great warrior’.
Imagine how cool it would have been if Rey couldn’t lift the rocks in TLJ. She realises in that moment that for all her bluster about flying off and saving Kylo, she really has much to learn. When Leia lifts the rocks for her (a better Leia moment than the space-walk methinks) Rey sees firsthand that mastery will take time.
I don’t actually think Rey’s journey should necessarily reflect Luke’s. We don’t need a repeat here. As a fan I just prefer Lucas’ original ‘space yoga’ version of the Force over the PT’s ‘Chosen One/Midichlorian’ stuff and the ST’s ‘Force on tap for any Tom, Dick and Rey’ version. If the Force isn’t elusive and nuanced and largely unattainable, then it loses it’s uniqueness in the narrative.
When I was a kid I was absolutely drawn in by Luke’s struggle. What struck me so much in TESB, from an emotional standpoint, was that Luke was so alone in all this. He was a bit like Peter Parker in that respect, he had this amazing power that he really couldn’t share with anyone else, and by association a heavy burden that rested on his shoulders alone. He couldn’t exactly confide in Han or Leia with regards to this stuff. His mentors were surly and disparaging. And ultimately he failed - not just himself but the galaxy. There wasn’t an endless pool of broom-wielding Force-mutants out there for Yoda and Obi Wan to draw upon. Luke was the last hope.
The PT took away from this to an extent. Now the Force was entirely genetic and potential Jedi were assessed via a blood-test and sent to stuffy Jedi colleges. But at least Anakin had an emotional struggle, which of course he failed.
Rey just wins. She does nothing but win. She’s better than everyone - Kylo, Luke, even Yoda. That’s fine I guess. I just prefer the Force as a deep and elusive mystery rather than the frivolous fountain of super-powers it has become.
At the end of the day it comes down to these two lines:
After his greatest failure, Luke hangs from the side of cloud city, lacking weapons and a hand. Completely defeated, he calls for help… anyone.
After her greatest “failure” (this is her one moment of weakness so far) Rey escapes from the Supremacy, having failed to bring Ben Solo back. But her first line back is:
Yeah, I like this!
At the end of the day it comes down to these two lines:
After his greatest failure, Luke hangs from the side of cloud city, lacking weapons and a hand. Completely defeated, he calls for help… anyone.
After her greatest “failure” (this is her one moment of weakness so far) Rey escapes from the Supremacy, having failed to bring Ben Solo back. But her first line back is:
Yeah, I like this!
One thing that’s easy to forget apparently is that at the end of Empire, Luke’s back in tip top chipper shape (already has his hand back), confident and with a plan to save Han being his last line in the film. Whereas Rey’s last line in the film is one of fear and doubt.
At the end of the day it comes down to these two lines:
After his greatest failure, Luke hangs from the side of cloud city, lacking weapons and a hand. Completely defeated, he calls for help… anyone.
After her greatest “failure” (this is her one moment of weakness so far) Rey escapes from the Supremacy, having failed to bring Ben Solo back. But her first line back is:
Yeah, I like this!
One thing that’s easy to forget apparently is that at the end of Empire, Luke’s back in tip top chipper shape (already has his hand back), confident and with a plan to save Han being his last line in the film. Whereas Rey’s last line in the film is one of fear and doubt.
It’s important to recognize the context of that scene: in Empire, the exchange concerns Han. They’ve spent a couple hours getting to the fleet and creating a plan. Luke is confident in this plan, or at least hopeful, which is why he is chipper. But had someone said “we probably won’t get Han back”, everyone would have had darker thoughts. The final shot is bittersweet; Luke hasn’t even addressed the Vader issue.
Rey’s scene is a bit sad, but is quickly overturned by Leia’s positive comment. Had Leia been a bit more concerned there would have been more drama. Instead, the final shot is the Resistance all smiling ready to fight another day.
In ANH and TESB, Luke had 1 failure using the force - lifting the X-wing. He did all the others the first time we see him try it (though not always on the first attempt, but that is the same with Rey). Luke stood his ground with Vader and several times drove him back. We didn’t really get to see the finish of Rey and Kylo’s first first fight because the breaking up of the planet separates them. The second time, they don’t actually fight, except while trying to grab the lightsaber, which breaks in two. So Rey hasn’t exactly had a string of unqualified successes. If you really watch both films, you can see her many failures. But if you are concentrating on her force use in saying she never failed, then you have to look at Luke and how he rarely ever failed either. At the end of TESB, Luke quickly goes from the horror of the revelation that Vader is his father to acceptance and then he gets a new hand and is smiling with Leia, who seems more upset than he is. At the end of TLJ, Rey, who was briefly elated by the success she and Chewy had in the air over Crait, is feeling dejected and wondering what the next step is. Luke is already executing a plan to rescue Han, but Rey has no plan. So yes, please delineate how Rey just has it so easy. I don’t see it that way and I fail to see how you can if you take into account all that we see on screen.
In ANH and TESB, Luke had 1 failure using the force - lifting the X-wing. He did all the others the first time we see him try it (though not always on the first attempt, but that is the same with Rey). Luke stood his ground with Vader and several times drove him back. We didn’t really get to see the finish of Rey and Kylo’s first first fight because the breaking up of the planet separates them. The second time, they don’t actually fight, except while trying to grab the lightsaber, which breaks in two. So Rey hasn’t exactly had a string of unqualified successes. If you really watch both films, you can see her many failures. But if you are concentrating on her force use in saying she never failed, then you have to look at Luke and how he rarely ever failed either. At the end of TESB, Luke quickly goes from the horror of the revelation that Vader is his father to acceptance and then he gets a new hand and is smiling with Leia, who seems more upset than he is. At the end of TLJ, Rey, who was briefly elated by the success she and Chewy had in the air over Crait, is feeling dejected and wondering what the next step is. Luke is already executing a plan to rescue Han, but Rey has no plan. So yes, please delineate how Rey just has it so easy. I don’t see it that way and I fail to see how you can if you take into account all that we see on screen.
+1
In ANH and TESB, Luke had 1 failure using the force - lifting the X-wing. He did all the others the first time we see him try it (though not always on the first attempt, but that is the same with Rey).
He also failed at the Dagobah tree, and failed to contact Ben under Cloud City, and failed to mind trick Jabba, and failed to foresee the Rancor pit…
Luke stood his ground with Vader and several times drove him back. We didn’t really get to see the finish of Rey and Kylo’s first first fight because the breaking up of the planet separates them.
That’s like saying we don’t get to see the end of Luke’s fight with Vader because a vertical shaft has separated them, but I think it’s clear each time who came out of it unscathed and standing.
The second time, they don’t actually fight, except while trying to grab the lightsaber, which breaks in two. So Rey hasn’t exactly had a string of unqualified successes. If you really watch both films, you can see her many failures. But if you are concentrating on her force use in saying she never failed, then you have to look at Luke and how he rarely ever failed either.
All three of Luke’s final confrontations in the OT would have ended with him dying had it not been for sudden and fortuitous aid. Also, if you consider Qui-gon the main character of TPM, all of the prequels end with the hero being horribly beaten. Rey has held her own in each of her final confrontations and has basically saved herself each time.
At the end of TESB, Luke quickly goes from the horror of the revelation that Vader is his father to acceptance and then he gets a new hand and is smiling with Leia, who seems more upset than he is.
Smiling is a strong term.
At the end of TLJ, Rey, who was briefly elated by the success she and Chewy had in the air over Crait, is feeling dejected and wondering what the next step is.
There’s also the bit where she is all smiles as she reunites with BB-8 and Poe.
Luke is already executing a plan to rescue Han, but Rey has no plan. So yes, please delineate how Rey just has it so easy. I don’t see it that way and I fail to see how you can if you take into account all that we see on screen.
I’m all for viewing the sequel trilogy as drama more than action, so the relative power of the hero to the villain really doesn’t bother me that much. However, I do take exception to a misrepresentation of these movies.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Misrepresentations when it comes to Rey tend to be extremely one sided. The other day someone said Rey’s “only moment of weakness” is when she fails to turn Ben. This is the same Rey that in one scene literally becomes so emotional that she runs crying into a forest to be alone.
Misrepresentations when it comes to Rey tend to be extremely one sided. The other day someone said Rey’s “only moment of weakness” is when she fails to turn Ben. This is the same Rey that in one scene literally becomes so emotional that she runs crying into a forest to be alone.
Oh, I have no problem with Rey in TFA. She had a solid self contained arc that could setup a great one. But TLJ failed to give Rey much of a character besides an unresolved “what is my place in all this” arc that is never finished.
Misrepresentations when it comes to Rey tend to be extremely one sided. The other day someone said Rey’s “only moment of weakness” is when she fails to turn Ben. This is the same Rey that in one scene literally becomes so emotional that she runs crying into a forest to be alone.
Rey’s moments of weakness are too numerous to list, it’s when she’s put in life or death situations that she stands apart from Anakin and Luke.
I hope Episode 9 really delves into the deep psychological wounds of the character, since that’s where the real story is going to be.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
There is something very clear in the sequel trilogy about Rey that many people do not see at all. One of the reasons why Rey may be really good at accomplishing things is because of the way she grew up. Even though Unkar Plutt took her in when her parents abandoned her, she was still practically alone, as she had to hunt and work for her own. She worked for Plutt, earning her own food, and scavenging old ships by herself. Plus, she is experienced in melee combat due to her years of using her quarterstaff. Luke, on the other hand, grew up under strict requirements from Owen and Beru as a farm boy. He wasn’t allowed to go off on adventures out in the Galaxy and this is why he felt that he was going nowhere. Rey, while it wasn’t as strict for her leaving, still had a job to do, which was why she had to stay there. That’s they filmed a scene that got removed of Unkar Plutt finding Rey at Maz Kanata’s castle. Also, she stayed on Jakku because she was waiting for her parents. Each tally in the AT-AT she marked was a day she waited for her parents to come back.
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
NeverarGreat said:
I hope Episode 9 really delves into the deep psychological wounds of the character, since that’s where the real story is going to be.
I agree. For me, she was much more interesting the first 30 minutes of TFA and a bit near the end when she’s having an emotional breakdown. I’d like to get her back to being the stranger we met a few years ago. By stranger, I mean someone with depth and interest.
All we got this last time was her being a bit snarky and somehow weirdly bashful with asking Ben to put his shirt on. Other than being on screen during the film, as a character, she’s largely absent from the story.
That said; Some of my thoughts could also be me having forgotten a lot of the film. I need to watch it again to be sure I’m not way off.
NeverarGreat said:
I hope Episode 9 really delves into the deep psychological wounds of the character, since that’s where the real story is going to be.I agree. For me, she was much more interesting the first 30 minutes of TFA and a bit near the end when she’s having an emotional breakdown. I’d like to get her back to being the stranger we met a few years ago. By stranger, I mean someone with depth and interest.
All we got this last time was her being a bit snarky and somehow weirdly bashful with asking Ben to put his shirt on. Other than being on screen during the film, as a character, she’s largely absent from the story.
That said; Some of my thoughts could also be me having forgotten a lot of the film. I need to watch it again to be sure I’m not way off.
She still is a stranger. Her parents are nobody. It has been confirmed within The Last Jedi and Daisy Ridley that her parents are unimportant to her story and future.
KYLO REN: You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You’re nothing. But not to me.
I believe her future will be with Ben, but she knows that he has to find it within himself where his rightful place should be. Only then will she come back to him.
The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.
I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.
Where were you in '77?
Someone made a good point about how Kylo may have chosen to stay shirtless because he liked the way she reacted to it. She was having to face the fact that he is a man, and not just a monster like she kept saying, similar to the TFA interrogation when Rey called him a creature in a mask, with Kylo responding by unmasking himself. It humanizes Kylo and makes him more sympathetic to Rey.
In ANH and TESB, Luke had 1 failure using the force - lifting the X-wing. He did all the others the first time we see him try it (though not always on the first attempt, but that is the same with Rey). Luke stood his ground with Vader and several times drove him back. We didn’t really get to see the finish of Rey and Kylo’s first first fight because the breaking up of the planet separates them. The second time, they don’t actually fight, except while trying to grab the lightsaber, which breaks in two. So Rey hasn’t exactly had a string of unqualified successes. If you really watch both films, you can see her many failures. But if you are concentrating on her force use in saying she never failed, then you have to look at Luke and how he rarely ever failed either. At the end of TESB, Luke quickly goes from the horror of the revelation that Vader is his father to acceptance and then he gets a new hand and is smiling with Leia, who seems more upset than he is. At the end of TLJ, Rey, who was briefly elated by the success she and Chewy had in the air over Crait, is feeling dejected and wondering what the next step is. Luke is already executing a plan to rescue Han, but Rey has no plan. So yes, please delineate how Rey just has it so easy. I don’t see it that way and I fail to see how you can if you take into account all that we see on screen.
I don’t think doing a ‘tit for tat’ on Jedi abilities is fair for either side of the argument. The only Force ability on record (at the time of ANH) was ESP. Obi does a mind trick and senses the destruction of Alderaan. Luke learns a little ESP with the remote and then uses that technique at the film’s climax.
By this reading Rey is absolutely ‘fast-tracked’ in TFA. She gets Force visions, resists a mind-probe, does a mind trick, levitates a lightsaber, and finally defeats a veritable Sith Lord. Even in TESB Luke struggles to lift rocks and fails pretty much every test. In TLJ Rey kicks everyone’s ass (including Luke’s!) and levitates a mountainside.
That’s not the real problem here (given that the Force and associated abilities/powers evolved throughout the saga). The problem, for me and many others, is that the Force is/was depicted as having nuance and cost. Even Luke and Anakin had natural abilities - nothing like Rey’s massive portfolio but a similar principle - yet they still struggled greatly with the notion of Jedi attainment (which of course is the backbone of the saga). There were emotional and physical costs, the ever-looming threat of the Dark Side and the potential to fail and even bring more harm than good.
Rey has no struggle beyond being personally upset at some of the outcomes. Dark Side? No probs. Levitation? Got it. Kick mentor’s ass? You betcha! It’s just ‘Force on tap’ for this person.
Seriously, if Force abilities are so easily attained, shouldn’t Obi Wan have given Luke a crash course in Mind Tricks before he rushed off to deactivate the Tractor Beam?