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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 154

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Life is a series of ups and downs. Not everyone who experiences adversity is a loser and a mistake doesn’t define who you are.

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rodneyfaile said:

Life is a series of ups and downs. Not everyone who experiences adversity is a loser.

That’s all good and well, but it doesn’t change the fact that the big three all fell from their pedestals in a major way and a big part of that failure was caused by their own actions. They were obviously the winners at the end of the OT, and through circumstances and their own mistakes let it all slip through their fingers. They lost almost everything they fought for over the course of a trilogy. I think the loser description is quite apt.

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By that definition then, everyone in the entire saga is a loser.

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rodneyfaile said:

By that definition then, everyone in the entire saga is a loser.

If you consider the fact that we went from liberating the galaxy from tyranny and being in a place of power with the potential to change things for the better, to a handful of people fitting into a tiny spaceship facing almost the exact same tyranny then yes, everyone is a loser.

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What did you want the new movies to be then, romantic comedies?

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rodneyfaile said:

What did you want the new movies to be then, romantic comedies?

No, I wanted new stories with new foes, and challenges, not another Empire vs rebels retread, and another Jedi apprentice betraying his master. Been there, done that. Now the victories of the old guard have been undone to give us more of the same. This approach devalues both the victories of the old and the new, since the galaxy can just be reset on a whim and without context or explanation. What will make the probable victory of Rey, Finn, and Poe so special at the end of Episode IX? History tells us that the answer is very little, since another “Emperor” with unlimited resources, stormtroopers, and Tie-fighters can be pulled from behind the curtain to continue the conflict ad nauseum.

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There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

It sounds like when things are different, you don’t like how different they are, and when things are similar, you don’t like how similar they are.

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rodneyfaile said:

There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

In theory yes, in practise it’s more of the same. TLJ starts with the phrase “The First Order reigns”, and we are subsequently told they will control all major systems in weeks. There’s nothing in TLJ that suggests we’re dealing with a terrorist organisation, whilst everything suggests they are an oppressive force in firm control forcing the last remaining good guys to flee from their base, and ending up reducing them to the size of a football team.

It’s rebels, stormtroopers, X-Wings, Tie-fighters, Death Stars, At-At’s, and throne rooms with an evil Emperor all over again. To me those are not new challenges. They are a variation on what came before. It’s the same cross-roads, where we sometimes make a left in stead of a right, or in many cases feign a left only to go right again in the end.

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One could say the same about the three Flash Gordon serials. Ming and his minions just keep coming back for more. 😉

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

One could say the same about the three Flash Gordon serials. Ming and his minions just keep coming back for more. 😉

I don’t hold the Flash Gordon serials in as high a regard as Star Wars. I enjoyed the Transformers cartoon in the 80s even though each episode ended with Megatron yelling “retreat!” at the end, but I wouldn’t want Star Wars to follow suit. 😉

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I do, as they inspired Lucas, as did Buck Rogers, which opens THX-1138. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon film, but couldn’t get the rights. For all the Joseph Campbell stuff Lucas cites, he was essentially just doing his own Buster Crabbe serial.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I do, as they inspired Lucas, as did Buck Rogers, which opens THX-1138. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon film, but couldn’t get the rights. For all the Joseph Campbell stuff Lucas cites, he was essentially just doing his own Buster Crabbe serial.

I know, but being inspired by does not have to mean it should become the same, or that turning Star Wars into a Buster Crabbe serial will make it better.

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In any case I am curious where Abrams will take the story, and whether he will succeed in making the total better than the sum of the parts.

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DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

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If the Holiday Special and prequels didn’t ruin the Star Wars franchise, I highly doubt The Last Jedi will either. People are still talking about Star Wars, and one good trailer for Episode IX is all it will take for Star Wars fever to kick back in.

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Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

Thanks Val! 😃

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rodneyfaile said:

If the Holiday Special and prequels didn’t ruin the Star Wars franchise, I highly doubt The Last Jedi will either. People are still talking about Star Wars, and one good trailer for Episode IX is all it will take for Star Wars fever to kick back in.

The Holiday Special is complete cringe and there’s lots of cringe in the prequels as well but neither attacked the fans, attempted to majorly alter in-universe rules or made you feel insulted for loving the original Star Wars and it’s characters. During my one and only viewing of TLJ at the cinemas I often felt as if there was an invisible middle finger from Rian Johnson directed at me through the cinema screen and many times I wondered if I was really watching a Star Wars movie and not some secret spoof of nu-Star Wars akin to Spaceballs. Leaving the cinema I felt assaulted and angry, an anger that stayed with me for 8 or more months and still surfaces today when I think about it.

I am not interested in the slightest in watching Ep9 and will not be going to see it. The usual Star Wars hype will of course kick up but a good portion of the usual fans will be missing from it. I’m not predicting the movie to flop or anything like that but I highly doubt it will surpass TLJ box office takes, instead likely to continue on the visible downward trend, if not accelerating due to TLJ, Solo (despite apparently being an “OK” movie) and the way Disney/Lucasfilm staff, directors and actors have been handling the criticism.

Despite the host of new animations and shows released and yet to come out, Star Wars is not currently in a good place.

Anyway, that’s all I’ll say for now as I can’t afford to get mixed up at the moment in a lengthy debate on the matter.

Val

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Star Wars Celebration 5-day tickets sold out pretty quick. I’d say Star Wars is fine. It’s an absolute wonderful time to be a Star Wars fan.

I sympathize though. I felt the same way during the prequels. I didn’t like them, but the look and feel of the prequels were taking over everything I saw that was Star Wars and I didn’t see an end in sight. It was a sad time for me, but now Disney has come along and in my opinion have brought Star Wars back in a big way with new movies and new series with much more to come.

Maybe whatever the Game of Thrones producers are working on will be more to your liking, or even whatever Rian Johnson is working on. Maybe not having classic characters and it being a separate thing will be more acceptable to you?

Star Wars isn’t ending anytime soon. I think there will be a little something for almost everyone. Me? I love it all.

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After watching Balance of the Force and the scene breakdowns, I do think I understand a little better where Rian was coming from in his take on Luke. That the last of the Jedi would intentionally isolate himself in order to make way for a new source of light-side users is something I could get behind.

But.

Always that but.

I didn’t get the impression that Luke had such a strategy in mind based on his interactions with Rey. If anything, during their time together he should have been pleased that his plan has worked so well, and that another powerful source of light has arisen in the galaxy to challenge Snoke and Kylo. If Luke had simply said in the Jedi Tree that the entire religion was fatally flawed, they could have gotten past their antagonism and into a more interesting and rewarding track. Luke could have realized what Rey wanted and said ‘I won’t teach you the Jedi ways, but I can be a mentor and a friend.’ Then when Rey dives into her dark interludes with Kylo the inevitable fallout would be sharper for her growing friendship with the former Jedi.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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rodneyfaile said:

There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

I can’t speak for others, but I have a bit of a problem with this thinking.

For me it’s more about how they go back to pre-ANH with the Sequels, almost resetting the timeline. It’s as if after World War I established new order in Europe, the heir to the Kaiser was suddenly reinstated by a small terrorist organization and then proceeded to redo the World War almost exactly the same.

Of course, that’s not what happened. The Second World War was a direct result from the conclusion of the First World War, with the Germans angry over their defeat and turning to a horrible ideology. If you were to learn about the Franco-Prussian War and then jump to WW2, it wouldn’t make any sense.

Compare that with Star Wars. Imagine watching ROTS and then jumping to TFA. It… isn’t that hard. There’s a Republic mentioned but only shown in a destruction montage. Beyond that it could be reasoned the Empire has stood for 50 years. Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

I’d rather the Sequels have built upon what the Originals laid out. It can have higher stakes, but the Victory over Endor should of had a major impact on the galaxy the same way the Empire took over at the end of ROTS. One possibility that comes to mind is the Vong War from EU… it felt even more important than the Battle of Endor, but without Endor there wouldn’t have been a Republic in the first place. The OT feels important, as it should.

The First Order does not feel like a terrorist organization. They feel like the Empire, and they are by TLJ. Show us the Republic. Play up terrorism, because it’s more impactful than ever. Show them bombing senate buildings, put the galaxy on edge. That would make the saga feel much different. At the end of TLJ, they could fire on Starkiller and become a new Empire. But then we’d at least see the Republic in action holding off this radicals. By removing most of what the Rebel Alliance established, they made the OT’s impact on the saga redundant.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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OutboundFlight said:
Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

Nothing is ever permanent, especially across an entire galaxy. Just because there is a new conflict doesn’t mean the fighting for a previous victory is for nothing.

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The way I have come to like the political situation in the new movies is by looking at the galaxy almost like an individual, and apply Jungian archetypes, which is often used to analyze characters in the films.

If the Old Republic was like a person, then Sidious was like a person’s Shadow. So when the Old Republic transformed into the Empire, it was like that person’s conscious self became a slave to the autonomous shadow, controlled by their more negative qualities. The Rebel Alliance was like the conscious ego taking control back, but in the end of the ROTJ, the Rebels merely purged/repressed/disowned the Shadow. So one could look at the Rebels/Republic/Resistance and the Empire/First Order as two halves of the same person, like a Jekyll and Hyde, the Ego and the Shadow.

The New Republic seemingly never resolved that problem until, after being repressed for so long, exploded, coming back even worse than before, like a soda that is shaken up and the pressure is suddenly released.

For a person to be more “balanced”, per se, they must find self-actualization or self-realization, and to do that once must integrate their shadow. Basically, someone who reincorporates the shadow into their personality, produces a stronger, wider consciousness in themselves than before. They have to acknowledge their dark side in order to become a fully realized individual.

A lot of this rests on how Episode IX pans out, but if this idea continues into the conclusion, then I would think IX would end in the reunification of the First Order and the Resistance. It sounds a little crazy, but I imagine they could achieve this theme either through Kylo Ren, who controls the First Order and could possibly be redeemed, thus reintegrating the First Order, or through Finn, who will take the lessons he learned from the last two films and help liberate the bulk of the First Order military, the Stormtroopers, from their servitude.

The lessons learned from understanding and dealing with one’s shadow is a big aspect of the Star Wars film, being represented by the dark side of the Force, and both being a metaphor for facing one’s own negative qualities, impulses or emotions. So to me the political situation, which I still could have been explained better in the films, is a continuation of those themes. And looking at it now feels like having the threat being a resurgent Empire was the natural direction to take for this final trilogy. Maybe they could have told that story in different ways, but I don’t think the way they are telling it goes against the Saga. It’s the opposite, to me, at least.

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

It was explained, multiple times in both movies or shown in various ways. The crux is the fall of Ben Solo, which happened off screen. Luke vanished, Han and Leia broke up and went back to what they were good at. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren, the First Order rose and took the old Empire tech and improved on it and developed a new super weapon. About the only thing missing is any clear details about the new Republic, but they are wiped out in TFA. If you need to have everyone in the same place as 30 years ago or super detailed reasons why they aren’t, then you expect them to be main characters still instead of supporting characters. I can understand being critical of the film, but many of your points are based of a false assumption that the old cast is still the focus. This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

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rodneyfaile said:
I sympathize though. I felt the same way during the prequels. I didn’t like them, but the look and feel of the prequels were taking over everything I saw that was Star Wars and I didn’t see an end in sight. It was a sad time for me, but now Disney has come along and in my opinion have brought Star Wars back in a big way with new movies and new series with much more to come.

Fair enough and it’s good that the ST was able to do that for you. Unfortunately it seems to be an ever widening problem with the fandom not split 2 major ways but 3 or 4 now, with some of those splits being chasms.

rodneyfaile said:
Maybe whatever the Game of Thrones producers are working on will be more to your liking, or even whatever Rian Johnson is working on. Maybe not having classic characters and it being a separate thing will be more acceptable to you?

Definitely interested to see what the GoT producers will come up with and I would have been far more interested in Rian’s completely separate trilogy if not for TLJ (and is where he should have done his experimentation with the franchise rather than part 8 of a 9 part saga). No chance of me watching them now and personally I don’t think they will ever happen, I now think it was just another way of Disney trying to play down / throw a blanket over the effects of criticism that they knew was coming and was already starting to make itself heard. It will eventually be “explained” as to why they are no longer getting made.

However it’s not simply a case of not having classic characters in the movies, I would have had no problem with them being in the ST had they been treated with the due care and respect deserved in their story treatments.

rodneyfaile said:
Me? I love it all.

A little contradictory seeing that you just said you hated the PT, no?

Val