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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 151

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Tyrphanax said:

Not pointing Luke specifically, just the story. I guess you could argue that the final scene in TFA has the weight of the Luke we know from the OT, but you could argue just as easily that it leads just as well into TLJ’s version of Luke so it’s a wash, really.

Luke we already know as an established character by the end of ROTJ. The Luke we see in TLJ just plainly isn’t the same character. You can classify it as “growth” or “character development” or whatever, but it’s not really an expansion of the Luke character we’ve seen before as it is a complete alteration of the core character. It was like a “what if” version of Luke where maybe he failed to defeat the Emperor and redeem his father and fell into despair or something. The whole movie kinda felt like a “what if” thing.

I completely disagree of course. Luke has always been my favorite character and I’m glad they gave him a compelling story rather than just “perfect old Jedi who exiled himself to learn the bestest powers.”

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

My impression of Luke’s mindset from watching only TFA was that he became discouraged with his effectiveness as a teacher and went in search of something that would make him better able to pass on what he had learned. Since he was the last of the Jedi, the only thing remaining would apparently be these texts on a half-mystical island. Keep in mind that he gave the coordinates to R2 before he left, so it’s not like he went there to hide, at least not in the beginning. There’s also the fact that JJ wanted Luke to be practicing Force techniques when Rey found him.

So the idea of Luke in TFA was that of Rocky having lost a fight and needing to train harder for the next one.

Luke in TLJ has lost all hope.

It’s a not insignificant difference.

But isn’t that what he did, according to TLJ? The outcome was just different than what you personally expected.

Even if TFA had kept its written ending (which, again, it wasn’t, which is important to remember), it wouldn’t necessarily contradict anything except Like cutting himself from the force. Like could have “walked away from it all” (TFA quote) and still used the force in his exile. Clearly he’s still powerful in TLJ, and the implication is that during his exile he has been studying the Jedi texts, which lead to his decision to “end the Jedi.” So he hasn’t just been sitting on his ass.

Rian has specifically stated that he wanted Luke’s exile to be active. That was the solution Luke reached.

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DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

Well to me it comes across as trickery, a cheat that gives the audience some thrills at the expense of building a real story that stands own its own. The movie essentially keeps telling you not to trust the story trajectory, because the author might yank the steering wheel at any moment, which in my view prevents immersion.

To quote Plinkett:

“The question is why troll the situation at all? Why not take the audience in a completely new direction?”

Once you take away the surprises and the thrills, TLJ exposes the current generation’s Star Wars is self-referential to a fault, and extremely limited in its scope. RJ took the OT’s setups, and believed you can invent a new joke by just adding a new punchline.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

Well to me it comes across as trickery, a cheat that gives the audience some thrills at the expense of building a real story that stands own its own. The movie essentially keeps telling you not to trust the story trajectory, because the author might yank the steering wheel at any moment, which in my view prevents immersion.

Plenty of movies zig zag and play with expectations. It’s an extremely common device, used in everything from the recent Mission: Impossible to the original Star Wars. There’s nothing that’s a “cheat,” about it, it’s a tried and true storytelling conceit.

The problem, I guess, with mega popular franchises with Star Wars is fans try to outsmart it. “Oh I know everything about Star Wars so in this 2 hour video I will lay out everything that will definitely happen in episode VIII.” When they’re totally wrong, I get why they might feel “cheated.” But trying to predict what’s going to happen and actually watching what is happening are two very different things.

To quote Plinkett:

“The question is why troll the situation at all? Why not take the audience in a completely new direction?”

Once you take away the surprises and the thrills, TLJ exposes the current generation’s Star Wars is self-referential to a fault, and extremely limited in its scope. RJ took the OT’s setups, and believed you can invent a new joke by just adding a new punchline.

The idea that the film is “trolling” says more about the viewer making the claim than the film itself. And I get it. A lot of people who go to see a sequel do so for the comfort of the familiar, they just wanted to be satiated with what they already know. So I can see how curve balls can get them angry. They don’t care if they’re dramatically justified or not, they just want what they know and love, how they want it.

The idea that TLJ relies solely on self-reference to tell it’s story is just plainly untrue, and again says more about the viewer, latching onto and commenting on the things that relate to the familiar, while completely missing what’s right in front of them - that which makes the film unique.

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DominicCobb said:

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something.

I wonder where they got that idea?

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Not pointing Luke specifically, just the story. I guess you could argue that the final scene in TFA has the weight of the Luke we know from the OT, but you could argue just as easily that it leads just as well into TLJ’s version of Luke so it’s a wash, really.

Luke we already know as an established character by the end of ROTJ. The Luke we see in TLJ just plainly isn’t the same character. You can classify it as “growth” or “character development” or whatever, but it’s not really an expansion of the Luke character we’ve seen before as it is a complete alteration of the core character. It was like a “what if” version of Luke where maybe he failed to defeat the Emperor and redeem his father and fell into despair or something. The whole movie kinda felt like a “what if” thing.

I completely disagree of course. Luke has always been my favorite character and I’m glad they gave him a compelling story rather than just “perfect old Jedi who exiled himself to learn the bestest powers.”

And Mark Hamill completely disagrees with you. Funny how that works.

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Tobar said:

DominicCobb said:

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something.

I wonder where they got that idea?

Only skimmed the video, but aside from the fact that none of the clips are from the time he was making TLJ, it’s seems to be his philosophy is a common and easily understood one that a film that inspires strong feelings one way or another is more exciting than a film that just gets a shrug across the board. Though that’s harder to fit into a clickbait headline I guess, and doesn’t fit the theory that he hates fans, which he so clearly does.

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Not pointing Luke specifically, just the story. I guess you could argue that the final scene in TFA has the weight of the Luke we know from the OT, but you could argue just as easily that it leads just as well into TLJ’s version of Luke so it’s a wash, really.

Luke we already know as an established character by the end of ROTJ. The Luke we see in TLJ just plainly isn’t the same character. You can classify it as “growth” or “character development” or whatever, but it’s not really an expansion of the Luke character we’ve seen before as it is a complete alteration of the core character. It was like a “what if” version of Luke where maybe he failed to defeat the Emperor and redeem his father and fell into despair or something. The whole movie kinda felt like a “what if” thing.

I completely disagree of course. Luke has always been my favorite character and I’m glad they gave him a compelling story rather than just “perfect old Jedi who exiled himself to learn the bestest powers.”

And Mark Hamill completely disagrees with you. Funny how that works.

What is is with people thinking that others should just bow their heads and accept Hamill’s opinion as their own?

The irony is that Rian gave him the best material I’ve ever seen him work with, and a showcase for him and the character that, I would argue, is adoring to a fault. Rian has mentioned that Luke is his favorite character, and honestly not only do I think that’s obvious from the finished film, I wish he could have measured this bias, because, even though I share Rian’s preference, in the end Luke upstages what’s supposed to be the film’s actual main character. In this regard I think TFA was a bit more successful with its treatment of Han.

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I’m all for unique and different and subversive, but not at the complete disregard of established character.

It’s not so much that Luke changed: change is obviously part of character development and characters can grow and evolve; it’s kind of the point of any story, really. It’s that it was such a dichotomic(lol) change to the very fundamental core of the character brought on by something offscreen, seen only in flashback in a weird almost downplayed way that we have no emotional connection to.

Luke is the guy who reached into the darkness to pull out the Dark Lord of the Sith despite more powerful and knowledgeable people telling him that it was impossible (that is why they failed), so I just don’t buy that he’d abandon the galaxy to burn while he went off to die alone.

I don’t want him to be the “perfect old Jedi who exiled himself to learn the bestest powers" either; I didn’t really want him to be wearing prequel robes sitting at the head of the New Jedi Order like in the books or something. I was hyped to learn that he was in exile and that he wanted the Jedi to end (why? what happened? what could cause this? Luke wanted to be a Jedi like his father more than anything!), and I didn’t need him to be off learning “Force Nuclear Bomb” or something to defeat the enemy. I was even mostly down with his overall reasons for abandoning the ideals of the Jedi Order! Aside from the hopeless nihilistic angle, I felt like it totally fit my feeling that Luke had transcended the failings of the old Jedi Order.

I would have been content with a simple “I realized I was unable to stop the First Order by myself and I would have been hunted and killed had I remained in the galaxy, so I came out here to wait for someone worthy who could take on the task.” That feels like Luke to me, not “my apprentice went bad and even though I’ve personally dealt with almost that exact situation before and prevailed, I decided to give up on everything and run off to die.” Even Obi-Wan didn’t give up hope when literally everything he had ever known was destroyed by his brother in arms and closest friend; he went off and bode his time until he could send Luke out into the galaxy, and through Luke’s redemption of Vader we know that Obi-Wan wasn’t half the Jedi Luke was.

You could even do it the way it was in the film but actually make us care about the Luke/Ben relationship and actually show us why Ben’s fall shook Luke effing Skywalker so hard that he was willing to abandon the galaxy to burn. The way it is presented to us is just… prequel-level garbage. Did Luke even ever like Ben? What was the nature of their relationship? Was Ben a good likeable kid? Who knows. If Adam Driver wasn’t so great in the role, the character would just be Anakin Skywalker 2.

I didn’t feel cheated, I just felt like I wasn’t watching Star Wars or the character I love. I think that’s the biggest crime of TLJ. It’s so damn frustrating because I went in wanting to love the movie, I wasn’t sitting around for months before release analyzing all the trailers and all the lines and coming up with theories; I went in clean with only what I knew of what came before before and an open mind and left wondering if I had even seen a Star Wars film.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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Alright, I think I’ve had my fun. I was mostly posting in a harsh manner to get a rise out of Dom. =P

In all honesty, I’m still pretty positive about TLJ. It has a lot of faults but the handling of Rey and Ben’s characters was pretty superb.

I also really enjoyed the examination of the failure of the Jedi Order through Luke but I still fundamentally disagree with the idea that 1., Luke would ever ignite his saber(pull a gun) on his nephew in his sleep like that or 2., that he’d completely give up and just wander off to die.

That’s completely anathema to his character. Luke Skywalker is the eternal optimist, he’s the one that believes you can redeem anyone. Even an evil Sith Lord responsible for the deaths of countless sentient beings. To give up on and contemplate KILLING his nephew because he’s starting to have bad thoughts? No.

That aside, I think there’s still enough buried in there for a decent film. Trimmed of most of its excess, I’m quite partial to Hal’s fan edit of the film.

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/oct/02/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-abuse-politically-motivated-russian-trolls

I’ll just leave this here

The “I’ll just leave this here” attitude is so cliché… (get over this kind of passive-agressive behavior, it would be nice)

(please, try not to leave this kind totally biased/trash article more often, especially when already discussed a week ago…)

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

I didn’t mean it that way. I just thought it was odd and required no comment…

I think the findings pretty much reflect what most people knew about trolling. That it might be Russians?..that was news to me.

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I don’t for a moment think all the trolling, or even half, was Russians but I can see that in a political down time they might jump in and amplify the negative comments about the film. They might just be disgruntled Star Wars fans as well. I don’t really think it matters. You can tell from this thread that the negative opinions are very genuine. We could argue the percentage, but does that really matter. TLJ is devisive. I don’t think a Star Wars film has been this devisive since TESB. When it came out few found it as good as the original. Now we love it. Who knows what 10 years will do to everyone’s feelings about TLJ.

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i’m pretty sure i’m going to dislike it still because i have as much of a problem with the execution as i do with the story the film tells. i mean, i don’t even think it’s a good movie.

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yotsuya said:

I don’t for a moment think all the trolling, or even half, was Russians but I can see that in a political down time they might jump in and amplify the negative comments about the film. They might just be disgruntled Star Wars fans as well. I don’t really think it matters. You can tell from this thread that the negative opinions are very genuine. We could argue the percentage, but does that really matter. TLJ is devisive. I don’t think a Star Wars film has been this devisive since TESB. When it came out few found it as good as the original. Now we love it. Who knows what 10 years will do to everyone’s feelings about TLJ.

Is this really an apt comparison though? I’ll admit I only have my own perspective here, but back in 1980 I only recall lavish praise for TESB and a very excited fandom. Admittedly I ignored critics (they never liked the movies I did anyway) and I’m sure there were dissenting voices as with any film, but I honestly never sensed anything that rivals the polarising effect TLJ has had (internet notwithstanding). If anything I’d say RoTJ was the one that started any such rumblings of doubt.

On the flipside Conan the Barbarian '82 was often written off as garbage in the media, and my schoolmates all thought it was boring and much preferred knock-offs like ‘The Beastmaster’. However over time CTB has been hailed as a giant in the genre, so I do see how this can happen.

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Shopping Maul said:

On the flipside Conan the Barbarian '82 was often written off as garbage in the media, and my schoolmates all thought it was boring and much preferred knock-offs like ‘The Beastmaster’. However over time CTB has been hailed as a giant in the genre, so I do see how this can happen.

Hey now, don’t go knocking Beastmaster. That’s a Sunday-afternoon-TV favorite from my childhood 😉

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MTFBWY…A

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The only fuss I recall over Conan was the alleged use of trip wires on the horses, which director John Milius denies ever happened. Lots of horse owners in California, and I saw protesters with signs at one theater local to me back in '82.

Beastmaster came out three months after Conan, so I don’t see how it’s considered a knockoff anymore than The Sword and The Sorcerer which opened a month before Conan. And you had Thundarr The Barbarian on Saturday mornings two years before Conan even came out.

Remember when all those underwater movies came out around the same time as The Abyss? It just happens for some reason. Beefy guys with swords were suddenly in vogue in the early '80’s.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

The only fuss I recall over Conan was the alleged use of trip wires on the horses, which director John Milius denies ever happened. Lots of horse owners in California, and I saw protesters with signs at one theater local to me back in '82.

Beastmaster came out three months after Conan, so I don’t see how it’s considered a knockoff anymore than The Sword and The Sorcerer which opened a month before Conan. And you had Thundarr The Barbarian on Saturday mornings two years before Conan even came out.

Remember when all those underwater movies came out around the same time as The Abyss? It just happens for some reason. Beefy guys with swords were suddenly in vogue in the early '80’s.

Sorry guys - perhaps ‘knockoff’ was the wrong word. The point I was making is that there was a glut of similarly-styled films around the time of Conan '82 that my peers (fellow students and adults alike) seemed to much prefer. I didn’t have the same experience with TESB (which everyone seemed to love).

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This guy gets it ! best analysis I have seen for one of the most misunderstood scenes in the new film that I have seen , I have owned a copy of The Hero with a thousand faces since 1988 and it has been the template for the heroe’s journey in film for decades now and TlJ indeed follows the structure the structure being 1. the call to adventure , refusal of the call ,supernatural aid , the crossing of the first threshhold,the belly of the whale 2.Initiation ; the trials , the meeting with the godess, woman as the temptress, atonement with the father ,apotheosis,the ultimate boon 3.The Return;and finally , where this part of the saga leaves us …refusal of the return and the magic flight . there are many more chapters in the book with common threads to many world mythologies and religions and I believe these will come into play by episode 9…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXK2oJ3tA-8

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Just got around to watching the The Director and the Jedi.

Overall I appreciated it, but I couldn’t help but be reminded of the appendices for The Hobbit. In both cases the focus was on the scale and intricacy of the production, with the concepts and script treated as a given. By contrast, in the Lord of the Rings appendices there was a huge focus on the writing and adaptation, and it would have been so interesting to get the director’s perspective here as well.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Do you mean it seem like the documentary focused more on the aspect of “We’re doing this!” and “Can we live up to the legacy?” rather than really going into them really getting into the nitty gritty of the, like you said writing and execution itself? I totally get what you’re saying though.

Have you also watched the shorter Behind the Scenes videos as well, like the one’s on Luke, Snoke, Crait? I feel like the Luke one goes more into that.

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Check that out, it’s called Balance in the Force. I think it’s just like 11 minutes.