Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 150

It’s because he’s a funnier character than we’ve ever had in any of the other movies.

DominicCobb said:

oojason said:

‘Star Wars: The Last Plinkett Review’ - Mr. Plinkett examines Star Wars Episode 8 The Last Jedi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f83D18xL7VE
 

We can only hope they remain true to the title of the video.

I hope not. Another very good Plinkett review 😉

So, I’ve watched about half of it now, and I’m surprised at how meticulous it is. Very good watch.

I largely agree with the RLM review. The only intriguing thing about TLJ for me was the Rey and Kylo dynamic, that was genuinely interesting. All of the background elements I am not a fan of however. I do appreciate that RJ went for something different but it did not turn out great (in the context of the GFFA).

The Mr. Plinkett review was far less critical than I was expecting. It sounds like the more he watched and analyzed the movie, the more he found to like about it, which has been exactly my experience.

The most interesting point they made was that many of the obstacles the characters faced in the film were completely of their own making and very avoidable. Finn and Rose’s whole plan goes south because they parked their shuttle on a public beach? I find that very frustrating as a viewer and not terribly satisfying. Also there’s Poe’s loose lips leading to the destruction of all their shuttles. Kind of just general incompetence.

Tobar said:

Continuing discussion from this thread.

DominicCobb said:

As to [Hux’s] seriousness, I’d say it’s about the same in both. He’s not making jokes in TLJ, he’s the butt of them.

Every moment he has in the film is undercut with him being made a joke. The only actual serious moment he has is when he almost shoots Ren and that was an improvised moment from Gleeson.

That’s far from the “only serious moment” with him (remember he’s the one who tracks them through hyperspace? not to mention his final shot which seems to indicate friction in IX). Not to mention you just named probably single funniest Hux moment in the whole film.

Snoke has a far bigger role with much greater relevance to the plot at hand in TLJ than TFA. Just because you expected him to survive TLJ because of his role in the lore pre-TFA doesn’t mean his death undermines TFA. In any way.

I don’t care at all that he died in TLJ. It was a good moment of character growth for Ben. What is inexcusable is that Snoke was not expounded upon AT ALL before his death.

In that regard it is 100% consistent with how he’s portrayed in TFA, no?

Are we talking about the same character who crawls across a crowded table to stare at Finn in TFA?

Come on. You very well know there’s a galaxy of difference between crawling across a table and literally flying around like a video game character taking out hordes of off-screen enemies.

I mean sure they are two different things, but I’m really struggling to see the issue here. You mentioned something goofy she does, so did I. You’re right we don’t see her shooting at people in TFA, but does that really mean she’s not allowed to ever? She can’t use a jetpack because we don’t see her with one in TFA? I don’t get it.

TFA was the film that sent [Luke] into hiding in the first goddamn place. I’m honestly baffled that anyone expected anything else of his character other than reluctance.

The very nature of his originally intended introduction says otherwise. Here are just a few alternative explanations for why he disappeared:

• As explained in TFA he went off looking for the first Jedi temple. Why? Perhaps in hopes of learning how to defeat Snoke. Why? What if Snoke was an ancient evil of some kind that Luke was unprepared to deal with.
• After finding the temple he crashes and is stranded. Perhaps the nature of the planet is such that it blocks anyone from reaching out or being reached out to in the Force. Which is why the temple was built there in the first place.
• Perhaps there were other survivors from his original academy that he secreted away to continue teaching. Hiding so that they can continue in peace without fear of Kylo returning to finish what he started.
• Perhaps Luke knew he wasn’t meant to be the one to stop Snoke and so he shuts himself off and devotes himself to preparing to train the one who is. Waiting for the Force to bring them to him.

So you believe there are multiple ways they could have continued what you admit was an ambiguous set up for Luke, yet you refuse to see how the way they went was equally valid and in keeping with what was shown? Only the ideas you came up with would’ve been valid?

And they changed what was written for a reason - because it would’ve contradicted Luke “cutting himself off from the Force” (but notice that it was changed and not portrayed that way in the finished film! Oh wait but I thought JJ and Rian were giving each other the middle finger?). Besides that there’s no inconsistency.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. TLJ didn’t contradict TFA at all.

TFA ends with a clear setup for the sequel that TLJ completely abandons. “Leave the base at once and come to me with Kylo Ren. It is time to complete his training.”

The start of TLJ should have been the mirroring of Rey and Ben through their simultaneous training. You can even keep the “Forcetime” plot device so that they can communicate with each other throughout this time.

The Kylo training segments would also be an opportunity to expound on Snoke.

The fact that Kylo’s training wasn’t visualized in the traditional sense doesn’t mean it was completely “abandoned.” I think there’s multiple interpretations to that - it’s possible that Kylo continued his training off screen and even on - with the whole force time gambit and striking “his true enemy” being a final test of sorts; or that Snoke died before he could totally fulfill that promise. Either way “complete his training” is just a totally vague and one-off sequel hook line, and far from what actually matters in telling a story - consistent character progress, which is definitely there. Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

All you’re really telling me is what I already knew and have been saying: this isn’t an issue of whether or not TLJ “undermined” TFA, you just had very specific expectations for how they’d follow that story and you were mad that the expectations weren’t met (regardless of whether or not the divergent direction they took is in keeping with what came before, which it is).

Tobar said:

SilverWook said:

Did George actually say that?

Sadly.

I always thought it was a parody of that scene from Batman v Superman (as I never heard the phrase before 2016), but I guess I was wrong.

DominicCobb said:

Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

I would say yes. It’s not really dealt with in a way that is satisfactory or satisfying.

“Leia’s a Skywalker. 'Nuff said.” We don’t get to see her character grow and develop her powers after the revelation that she has some in Empire. We get to see her in a gold bikini and she plays with teddy bears.

I would say that undermines her character and how it was established in Empire and hence the film itself.

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

I would say yes. It’s not really dealt with in a way that is satisfactory or satisfying.

“Leia’s a Skywalker. 'Nuff said.” We don’t get to see her character grow and develop her powers after the revelation that she has some in Empire. We get to see her in a gold bikini and she plays with teddy bears.

I would say that undermines her character and how it was established in Empire and hence the film itself.

I agree that Leia is underutilized in ROTJ (and that the bikini undermines her character) but I don’t think making her a Skywalker is the root of that problem. And retconning Yoda’s line doesn’t undermine all of ESB, it just reorients a one-off line. It’s far more blatant a redirect than anything people claim of TLJ, but it’s still kind of a “who cares” change, it doesn’t matter all that much in the grand scheme of the story.

I think most people’s problem with Leia being the other is more a problem of Leia being Luke’s sister, which serves to shrink the universe and make the love triangle of SW and ESB squicky. I can’t think of anything in TLJ that does anything like that at all.

Rian Johnson wrote TLJ based on the script for TFA. He had a script before we ever saw the film. And to make sure his script worked, he and JJ worked together to make tweaks. So Abrams knew where the story was going in TLJ before he committed to the final edit of the film. So many make it sound like TLJ was done in a vacuum without Abrams input and forget that Abrams was a producer on the film and I seriously don’t believe he did more that set things up in TFA (he was never supposed to continue the story). So whatever he might have envisioned he either shared with Rian or had no expectation that his vision would be followed. And we know that even though they publicly said they threw out George’s treatments that they used them. JJ and Rian have not shared how much of their story they borrowed from George’s treatment, but we do know that Luke in self exile and a female student came from George. How much more is anyone’s guess. But Abrams knew what lay ahead in TLJ before the premier of TFA. He even changed a few things in TFA so they fit better.

^
Yeah, what he said.

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

I would say yes. It’s not really dealt with in a way that is satisfactory or satisfying.

“Leia’s a Skywalker. 'Nuff said.” We don’t get to see her character grow and develop her powers after the revelation that she has some in Empire. We get to see her in a gold bikini and she plays with teddy bears.

I would say that undermines her character and how it was established in Empire and hence the film itself.

I agree that Leia is underutilized in ROTJ (and that the bikini undermines her character) but I don’t think making her a Skywalker is the root of that problem. And retconning Yoda’s line doesn’t undermine all of ESB, it just reorients a one-off line. It’s far more blatant a redirect than anything people claim of TLJ, but it’s still kind of a “who cares” change, it doesn’t matter all that much in the grand scheme of the story.

I think most people’s problem with Leia being the other is more a problem of Leia being Luke’s sister, which serves to shrink the universe and make the love triangle of SW and ESB squicky. I can’t think of anything in TLJ that does anything like that at all.

I’m not going to try and argue that TLJ completely undermines TFA, because I don’t think that’s the case at all. But one such example (which is the only one I can really think of) is how TLJ picks up the final scene (the final few shots, really) of TFA.

In TFA, that final moment is treated with complete seriousness and has real gravity to it, enforced both by the score and by Mark Hamill’s small, but effective performance. TLJ unabashedly pulls the rug out from under it, treats it flippantly and plays it for a laugh, which to my mind undermines the seriousness of that scene in TFA. It also undermines Hamill’s performance in TFA. No wonder he didn’t like Johnson’s vision for Luke.

Aside from that example I wouldn’t say that TLJ undermines its predecessor. But there’s definitely a tonal dissonance between the two films. It’s not hard to spot and I think that’s part of why so many people were turned off by TLJ.

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

I would say yes. It’s not really dealt with in a way that is satisfactory or satisfying.

“Leia’s a Skywalker. 'Nuff said.” We don’t get to see her character grow and develop her powers after the revelation that she has some in Empire. We get to see her in a gold bikini and she plays with teddy bears.

I would say that undermines her character and how it was established in Empire and hence the film itself.

I agree that Leia is underutilized in ROTJ (and that the bikini undermines her character) but I don’t think making her a Skywalker is the root of that problem. And retconning Yoda’s line doesn’t undermine all of ESB, it just reorients a one-off line. It’s far more blatant a redirect than anything people claim of TLJ, but it’s still kind of a “who cares” change, it doesn’t matter all that much in the grand scheme of the story.

I think most people’s problem with Leia being the other is more a problem of Leia being Luke’s sister, which serves to shrink the universe and make the love triangle of SW and ESB squicky. I can’t think of anything in TLJ that does anything like that at all.

I’m not going to try and argue that TLJ completely undermines TFA, because I don’t think that’s the case at all. But one such example (which is the only one I can really think of) is how TLJ picks up the final scene (the final few shots, really) of TFA.

In TFA, that final moment is treated with complete seriousness and has real gravity to it, enforced both by the score and by Mark Hamill’s small, but effective performance. TLJ unabashedly pulls the rug out from under it, treats it flippantly and plays it for a laugh, which to my mind undermines the seriousness of that scene in TFA. It also undermines Hamill’s performance in TFA. No wonder he didn’t like Johnson’s vision for Luke.

I mean this is pretty much the only scene where I get people thinking TLJ pulled a 180 on TFA, but I still don’t see it as undermining or causing an inconsistency. It’s basically just coming at it from a different angle. The two different scenes serve very different purposes. As the ending of TFA, the dramatic weight of the scene is such in order to suggest the immensity of the events that have occurred and will eventually follow, which is necessary as the ending moment of the film.

The fact that the moment is built up to be of such momentous proportions is still very important to the story of TLJ (whether the scene itself is portrayed differently or not). The scene in TFA is basically from Rey’s perspective, her whole life and the whole film has been leading up to this point, now she’s putting her faith in this Legend to save everyone. But with TLJ, we see things from the other side. The legend who doesn’t feel like a legend, wondering who this person is, tossing aside this weapon that has caused him such pain (in this regard, Hamill’s weary TFA performance still tracts).

But here’s the important thing. For TLJ to “undermine” this TFA scene, it would have to have ignored it’s portrayal and meaning entirely. TFA positions finding Skywalker as finding the last hope for the galaxy. And though Luke at the beginning of TLJ refuses, by the end of the film he has fulfilled the promise of Rey’s journey and offer. So comparing the final scene of TFA solely to its repeated scene in TLJ misses completely the scene it’s actually anticipating, Luke’s return on Crait (which tonally fits very well with TFA’s finale).

Aside from that example I wouldn’t say that TLJ undermines its predecessor. But there’s definitely a tonal dissonance between the two films. It’s not hard to spot and I think that’s part of why so many people were turned off by TLJ.

I honestly struggle to spot this “tonal dissonance.” The two films are tonally different of course, but I don’t really think any moreso than any other two SW films are from each other. Some say it has too much humor, but weren’t people saying TFA had too much humor, too? Aren’t they similar in that regard?

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.