Is Revenge of the Sith the Best or Worst Prequel? — Page 4

from what i understood, some people prefer TPM because it’s the least offensive one to the OT, and because it’s the one that looks the best.

Also, Jake Lloyd’s Anakin >>> Hayden Christensen’s Anakin.

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense. I have a friend whose biggest problem with the PT is going to Tatooine. I never had an issue with that or with a lot of things that some fans do. I take them as the story George wanted to tell and just go with the PT being inferior to the OT because the story wasn’t quite as interesting. I don’t mind the quirky dialog that comes out of Anakin’s mouth because I’m always imagining the lines coming from James Earl Jones. Both Jake and Hayden use the same phrasing and it sounds atrocious coming from them. I don’t know why Lucas did that, but then I don’t know why he did a great many things. I’d love to have the actor form Clone wars redub Hayden’s lines and hear how that sounds.

And I have a feeling that Lucas’s version of the ST would be just as divisive if not more so that what we are getting. I think he did his best work on the OT mainly because he had a lot of outside input. We know a lot of the greats had input on Star Wars (Spielberg, Coppola, De Palma, and Marsha Lucas - known for her editing skills). Leigh Bracket did the script for TESB and his choice of directors for TESB and ROTJ gave him more time to tweak the scripts. For the PT, he seems to have done the scripts virtually solo and never had others look at them. A big no-no if you know anything about writing.

I’ve actually enjoyed all the films more than I remember. I think AOTC needs a good edit. The clashing of Anakin and Obi-wan needs to be toned down and that stupid droid factory scenes needs some cuts. And I think the end of ROTS could use some editing to get back the surprise of Luke and Leia’s parentage. The end is great for a 4,5,6,1,2,3 viewing order, but sucks for the 1,2,3,4,5,6 viewing order. And no, I would never do a machete order.

And there is some good foreshadowing of Anakin’s fall in AOTC. He doesn’t fall just because of Padme. He falls for a whole list of things that you have to pick up on. Palpatine is his mentor, his mother dies, he chafes at the Jedi rules, he jokes that people should be made to do things, just a whole list of things that reveal he is being pulled down by Palpatine from TPM on. IT is far too subtle for most people to catch, but it is there. That is one reason why the argument that some don’t believe Anakin’s fall just doesn’t make sense to me. It is all there. This time through I realized that Shmi’s torture was probably ordered by Palpatine and he was probably keeping her alive like I think he ended up keeping Anakin alive long enough to get him into the suit (and maybe even through ROTJ). Shmi being alive and the dreams pushing Anakin there to arrive just as she died all create the ideal situation to put Anakin on the path to the dark side. And from what the movies reveal, Palpatine would have known this weakness of Anakin’s and could have the power to exploit it. And when Anakin rescues Palpatine from Mace, Palpatine uses a voice that I think shows that he is not just relying on Anakin’s fear and hatred to turn him, that he is literally using the dark side of the force to push him over the edge. Lots of subtle things that add together. But, probably too subtle.

I found out why the music for TPM is better. That was the last film John Williams scored an edit of the film. The following films have been more thematic scoring with the music edited in as needed. It does’t work in my opinion. I like the traditional way and I think it creates better music. That is not to say Williams’ talents have decreased one bit with age. His Rey theme is on of the best of the saga. But doing it piecemeal instead of with the film just doesn’t work. The music doesn’t fit as well. That is one reason I have never liked the score for 2001. It just doesn’t fit.

ZkinandBonez said:

Though I personally think ROTS is the better story, I find TPM much more interesting overall. I’ve also noticed that many film-buffs, as well as film students (like myself), tend to be very fascinated by TPM.

Certainly TPM has the most interesting/notable place in film history of the three.

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

And I think the end of ROTS could use some editing to get back the surprise of Luke and Leia’s parentage. The end is great for a 4,5,6,1,2,3 viewing order, but sucks for the 1,2,3,4,5,6 viewing order. And no, I would never do a machete order.

Why preserve the parentage surprise if you don’t preserve the surprise that Anakin fell to the dark side? That’s at least half the shock of the reveal in ESB. I don’t think chronological viewing order works at all if you haven’t seen the films before.

But, probably too subtle.

Pretty much.

I found out why the music for TPM is better. That was the last film John Williams scored an edit of the film. The following films have been more thematic scoring with the music edited in as needed. It does’t work in my opinion. I like the traditional way and I think it creates better music. That is not to say Williams’ talents have decreased one bit with age. His Rey theme is on of the best of the saga. But doing it piecemeal instead of with the film just doesn’t work. The music doesn’t fit as well. That is one reason I have never liked the score for 2001. It just doesn’t fit.

Even TPM’s suffered from some serious editing in the final third. AOTC and ROTS are both pretty rough, lot of recycled cues. It wasn’t the last time he did a proper SW score though. I think TLJ probably faced the least editing of any SW score since the original film (and it easily has the most scoring of any of them).

Also, 2001 doesn’t have a score, that’s a soundtrack. Lots of films have done that (90% of Tarantino’s work, for example), and I’d wager most would say 2001 is the best example of it. Cool it with the hot takes please.

DominicCobb said:
Also, 2001 doesn’t have a score, that’s a soundtrack.

It does have, but rejected : http://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5228/.f

(would love to see an edit with Alex North cues)

MalàStrana said:

DominicCobb said:
Also, 2001 doesn’t have a score, that’s a soundtrack.

It does have, but rejected : http://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5228/.f

(would love to see an edit with Alex North cues)

Actually it had (past tense) two rejected scores (apparently there’s another by Frank Cordell, unreleased). But is has (present tense) none.

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

I disagree since the OT focused on the the rebellion against the Empire - something that is very much galactic politics.

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

I disagree since the OT focused on the the rebellion against the Empire - something that is very much galactic politics.

Nope, that was merely the backdrop to the characters’ stories. We see more rebellion politics in Rogue One than we do in the entire OT put together (which isn’t saying much at all).

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

I disagree since the OT focused on the the rebellion against the Empire - something that is very much galactic politics.

Nope, that was merely the backdrop to the characters’ stories. We see more rebellion politics in Rogue One than we do in the entire OT put together (which isn’t saying much at all).

I disagree with respect to the PT, since the PT to a large degree was also Palpatine’s story, and so the galactic politics are the characters’ story. The Jedi order in the PT is also shown to be highly political, as such the politics are simply an intregal part of the story told in the PT, in addition to being an integral part of Anakin’s personal history through his relationship with Palpatine.

chyron8472 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

I disagree since the OT focused on the the rebellion against the Empire - something that is very much galactic politics.

Nope, that was merely the backdrop to the characters’ stories. We see more rebellion politics in Rogue One than we do in the entire OT put together (which isn’t saying much at all).

I disagree with respect to the PT, since the PT to a large degree was also Palpatine’s story, and so the galactic politics are the characters’ story. The Jedi order in the PT is also shown to be highly political, as such the politics are simply an integral part of the story told in the PT, in addition to being an integral part of Anakin’s personal history through his relationship with Palpatine.

But that’s the problem. The PT is Palpatine’s story when it should be Anakin’s. And the story should be about Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme’s adventures amid the corrupt and crumbling Republic as it becomes (or moves to become) the Empire.

…

Anakin plays a role in Palpatine’s story in the PT when it should be the other way around.

Should it?

chyron8472 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

I disagree since the OT focused on the the rebellion against the Empire - something that is very much galactic politics.

Nope, that was merely the backdrop to the characters’ stories. We see more rebellion politics in Rogue One than we do in the entire OT put together (which isn’t saying much at all).

I disagree with respect to the PT, since the PT to a large degree was also Palpatine’s story, and so the galactic politics are the characters’ story. The Jedi order in the PT is also shown to be highly political, as such the politics are simply an integral part of the story told in the PT, in addition to being an integral part of Anakin’s personal history through his relationship with Palpatine.

But that’s the problem. The PT is Palpatine’s story when it should be Anakin’s. And the story should be about Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme’s adventures amid the corrupt and crumbling Republic as it becomes (or moves to become) the Empire.

The OT isn’t about the Rebellion. It’s about the adventures of Luke, Leia, Han, etc. The politics play a part in the characters’ stories, even an integral part, but the story itself is not about the politics. It about good versus evil.

The PT is not about good versus evil. It’s not even about the lure of power, the dangers of fear, or the insidiousness of evil. It’s about how Palpatine manipulates the galaxy, from both sides of the conflict simultaneously, into making him Emperor. Anakin plays a role in Palpatine’s story in the PT when it should be the other way around.

Should is in the eyes of the beholder. The PT is the story of many characters, and from a number of different perspectives. This is what makes it interesting to me. While there were flaws in the execution, I think Lucas was on the right track when he decided to change the story dynamic in the PT compared to the OT. The ST being a case in point, where staying so close to the OT plot, dynamic, and aesthetics creates a strong sense of deja vu.

I’m with chyron here. The focus is essentially misplaced which muddles the entire story. Too much time is spent on the machinations of the villain (which are obfuscated and convoluted beyond reason most of the time anyway) and not enough time is spent with the actual protagonists of the story, which is of great detriment to the films overall, and not in keeping with the spirit of the series.

^
+1

If the goal was to create a grand political drama full of behind the scenes manoeuvring and sinister goings on… then they failed. If the goal was to create another three Star Wars films about action, adventure and heroism… then they also failed. One of the biggest problems is all of this should have been re-drafted and re-fined over and over to get it just right, but instead it’s a botched kitchen sink effort with too much all at once. What is it George says in the DVD extras “oh they’re building sets, I better start writing the script”. Haha yeah no kidding.

ZkinandBonez said:

Is the plot really that convoluted and irrelevant though? TPM has very few Palpatine scenes, and mostly sticks to the action-plot and eventually Anakin’s story (which ties in with Qui-Gon’s story). There’s not too much going on character-wise, but it is supposed to simply set the stage and establish the characters.

The only PT film where I find that the politics/plot gets out of hand is AOTC. Though even it stays very focused on both Anakin and Obi-Wan, mostly using the politics as part of the “mystery-plot” that Obi-Wan has to solve, while Anakin is off having his awkwardly written emotional conflicts. AOTC is a very clumsy story in many ways, but I’d say the fault mostly lies in awkward characterization and simple technical execution). The important thing is Anakin’s development, which despite its weird execution, it does communicate quite clearly.

ROTS has a lot of politics and Palpatine scenes, but all of it relates to Anakin’s story and character development, and clearly follows up on what was established in AOTC. I don’t see how the Palpatine scenes can be considered irrelevant to Anakin’s story, when his whole plot relates to Anakin in one way or another. There’s hardly any Palpatine scenes in ROTS that doesn’t directly or indirectly affect Anakin and move his character forward.

It’s far from perfect, but I’d hardly say Lucas forgot he was making a trilogy about Anakin as the main character and just focused on the world-building.
(Plus, in many ways, but to a slightly lesser degree, it’s also Obi-Wan’s story. Which in-of-itself is very important to Anakin’s story.)

I agree. The execution falls flat on numerous occassions, but all the story threads, and character arcs are closely intertwined, often on a very clever way. The intercutting of Obi-Wan’s fight with Anakin, and Yoda’s fight with Palpatine is symbolic in the sense, that it represents a fight for both Anakin’s soul, and the soul of the Republic.

ZkinandBonez said:

Is the plot really that convoluted and irrelevant though? TPM has very few Palpatine scenes, and mostly sticks to the action-plot and eventually Anakin’s story (which ties in with Qui-Gon’s story). There’s not too much going on character-wise, but it is supposed to simply set the stage and establish the characters.

The problem isn’t just “Palpatine scenes,” although TPM does suffer from far too much bickering scenes between Sidious and the Trade Federation, which really bogs the film down and tend to be largely unnecessary (both in the macro and micro sense).

If the purpose of the film was to set the stage and establish characters, it failed. It sets a stage that is merely a semi-tangential preamble to the primary conflict of the trilogy (the Clone Wars). Of the characters introduced, Qui-Gon is killed and has little bearing on the rest of the trilogy, Obi-wan does nothing whatsoever except show up, and Anakin is so changed by the ten year gap that he might as well be a different character entirely. Padme is really the only one that follows through, but even then there’s the fact that her story is partially obscured in TPM (and also much of the bandwidth of the rest of her story for the trilogy is spent on her romance with Anakin, which let’s just say wasn’t set up in TPM for fear of the alternate).

The only PT film where I find that the politics/plot gets out of hand is AOTC. Though even it stays very focused on both Anakin and Obi-Wan, mostly using the politics as part of the “mystery-plot” that Obi-Wan has to solve, while Anakin is off having his awkwardly written emotional conflicts. AOTC is a very clumsy story in many ways, but I’d say the fault mostly lies in awkward characterization and simple technical execution). The important thing is Anakin’s development, which despite its weird execution, it does communicate quite clearly.

Ironically AOTC handles the politics the best in some ways. There it tends to be mostly the backdrop. Except because of this we run into some confusing shenanigans in terms of why they want Padme assassinated in the first place. In addition to all the otherwise character related problems you mention.

ROTS has a lot of politics and Palpatine scenes, but all of it relates to Anakin’s story and character development, and clearly follows up on what was established in AOTC. I don’t see how the Palpatine scenes can be considered irrelevant to Anakin’s story, when his whole plot relates to Anakin in one way or another. There’s hardly any Palpatine scenes in ROTS that doesn’t directly or indirectly affect Anakin and move his character forward.

Again, the problem isn’t merely the existence of “Palpatine scenes.” The problem for me with ROTS is focusing on minute, pesky squabbles between Palpatine and the Jedi council, which Anakin just happens to be in the middle of. Anakin’s fall and disillusionment with the Jedi should be due to factors grander and more mythic than that (which in fairness Lucas tried to accomplish with the saving Padme stuff, but that’s only one half of the equation).

It’s far from perfect, but I’d hardly say Lucas forgot he was making a trilogy about Anakin as the main character and just focused on the world-building.

He didn’t forget, he just did it poorly, in part because the interests of the films were split.

(Plus, in many ways, but to a slightly lesser degree, it’s also Obi-Wan’s story. Which in-of-itself is very important to Anakin’s story.)

I agree. If only he had fleshed that out in a meaningful way.

It’s interesting that you criticize Qui-Gon’s death and bearing on the story, when Lucas ultimately managed to better flesh out Qui-Gon’s character, motivations, and relationships with Obi-Wan, and Anakin over the course of a single movie than Snoke was developed over the course of two movies in the ST. I would say Snoke is to Ben Solo what Qui-Gon is to Obi-Wan and to a lesser degree Anakin, only Snoke has far less scenes, and Snoke and Ben Solo’s relationship is far less developed obscuring Ben Solo’s character motivations. Overall I think the PT has more layers, and character development, while the ST has far less, but tends to be better executed, largely driven by compelling performances.

ZkinandBonez is right. From seeing GL’s original 12 movie idea, TPM is really the introduciton. Our characters (Obi-wan, Qui-gon), join up with Padme and then Anakin along the way. The politics aren’t really playing much of a role. They are there and Palpatine is the villain, at least in his guise and Darth Sidious. The next two movies bracket the Clone Wars. From the moment we meet Anakin in TPM, the trilogy is about him, Padme, and Obi-wan. Palpatine in his role as Senator and Chancellor, is Anakin’s mentor and friend (while all the time whispering things in his ear that lead to his downfall). Palpatine’s part of the story is like that of the Empire in the OT - it is necessary, but it is part of the tapestry of the story. But where the rebels in the OT are on the outside looking in, the trio in the PT is on the inside in the thick of things. That is part of the story of how the Republic fell. Anakin can’t be on the outside when he ends up at the heart of the new Empire. When Palpatine was so pivotol to the conclusion of the OT and Vader’s fall, Palpatine was always going to be pivotal to the PT. And being the Chancellor turned Emperor, he is at the heart of politics. He largely did away with the political structure when he abolished the Senate in ANH in favor of regional governors. The political landscape was always part of the story and lies at the heart of Anakin’s turn to Vader.

JEDIT: Nevermind