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All Things Star Trek — Page 187

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DuracellEnergizer said:

TNG’s interpretation of the prime directive sucks.

I was never too crazy about it either. I preferred Kirk’s way of handling the Prime Directive. He just found ways to bend the prime directive so he could do what he wanted and still argue that he wasn’t violating it.

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TNG seemed to be operating under the TOS version of the PD until the second season. When developing warp drive became the prerequisite for first contact, that causes continuity issues with earlier episodes. Do the Klingons and the Ferengi follow such a directive? I doubt it.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:
Do the Klingons and the Ferengi follow such a directive? I doubt it.

True, but don’t see what that has to do with anything. I’d be willing to bet that America has rules that Russia and China don’t have.

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Handman said:

I’m with Warbler on this one. First Contact was good the last time I saw it (ages ago), but would surely not hold up now that I’m more familiar with the TV series.

First Contact was the only TNG film I liked when I saw it in the theatre (having seen all the TNG films in the theatre). But it really just has so many serious problems that don’t fit with the series. For one thing, because they need to fix the Phoenix and convince Cochrane to fly it, they basically throw temporal and cultural non-interference completely out the window.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Isn’t it just trying to repair the timeline the same as what Kirk did in City On The Edge of Forever though? The Borg already interfered by going back and attempting to kill Cochrane and prevent the flight.
IIRC, when they are abandoning the Enterprise E, the escape pods are on a trajectory to an uninhabited area, and somebody had a line about trying to stay out of history’s way.

If there are pro-Borg assimilating the Earth arguments, I’d love to hear them!

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Isn’t it just trying to repair the timeline the same as what Kirk did in City On The Edge of Forever though?

No. Telling Cochrane about a giant statue built in his honor does not fix the timeline. Just because the original cover story didn’t make traction doesn’t mean they revert to telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth—even bits that aren’t relevant to accomplishing the mission.

And if I recall, Kirk didn’t actually tell Edith Keeler (or anyone else) they are from the 23th century nor on a mission to see her death takes place. In DS9, when Sisko was confronted with fixing the timeline after Gabriel Bell was killed, he found a way to complete the mission to (mostly) restore the timeline without telling anyone the truth.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Yes, but Keeler didn’t turn out to be a drunkard with less than altruistic ambitions either. 😉

If they weren’t under the gun to make sure the Vulcans passing through the solar system see Cochrane’s first flight, maybe they could take the more subtle approach.

Where Lily being aboard the Enterprise fighting off Borg is concerned, a cover story isn’t going to to help much.

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Where were you in '77?

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Besides, cultural and temporal contamination aren’t the only things wrong with that film.

Picard was Worf’s cha’DIch and would be well aware that calling Worf a coward is a monumentally stupid idea; projectile weapons should either always work against Borg or never work against Borg—the Borg shouldn’t have to adjust their shields to now block bullets or shrapnel or whatever; killing the queen shouldn’t kill all the Borg drones; the Enterprise’s deflector is destroyed, so they shouldn’t be able to use it to return to the future; and the Enterprise-E is a Sovereign class ship, specifically designed to combat the Borg, so giving command of it to a captain they don’t trust in a fight against the Borg is foolish either way you slice it.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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The conflict with Worf felt a bit contrived.

I don’t think it’s ever said onscreen the E-E is designed for Borg combat, unlike the Defiant when it was introduced on DS9. It may have been down to the opinion of one admiral to keep Picard away from the pending battle for all we know. I’m sure he was certified fit for duty after the events of BOBW.

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Where were you in '77?

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Warbler said:

NeverarGreat said:

Warbler said:

NeverarGreat said:

pittrek said:

Warbler said:

pittrek said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I liked Insurrection…

Me too. It feels like a long TNG episode, which for many people is a problem, and it contradicts an episode of TNG, but compared to Nemesis it’s a masterpiece.

Which episode did Insurrection contradict?

I don’t remember the English titles of the episodes, but there was the last episode with Wesley, I think season 7 - the situation was similar - the Federation has decided to forcefully remove a colony of American Indians because somebody else wanted it. Picard’s attitude was “I don’t like it, but it’s an order”. In Insurrection the situation is very similar, but now for some reason Picard decides to do a small insurrection to defend them.

Although the situation is similar in these respects, there is one major difference - in Journey’s End the colony has been recently reclassified as being in Cardassian space and may be wiped out if not relocated, whereas the colony in Insurrection is still in Federation space and under no existential threat.

It can also be argued that the situation Journey’s End did not constitute a violation of the prime directive where as the situation in Insurrection did.

But since it’s later established that the colony in Insurrection has advanced knowledge of warp drive, the Prime Directive doesn’t apply in this case.

In the movie, they sure talk like it does apply.

That’s because they were operating under the assumption that it was a low-technology species until midway through the movie, when they realized that the aliens had the knowledge but simply decided not to use it in their lives.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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The main problem with First Contact for me are the Borg. Why is there suddenly a Borg Queen? That completely changes the character of the whole race. Why are they suddenly space zombies? Why do they fight their way to Earth through the whole fleet, and THEN travel back in time? Couldn’t they first jump to the past somewhere in the delta quadrant and then fly safely to Earth? Also why did they travel to the first contact time and not to let’s say ancient times? Why are they trying to assimilate mankind? Didn’t they use to assimilate races to get technological advances? What can they get by assimilating a bunch of savages which barely survived a world war?

Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE the movie, but the plot makes no sense. And I don’t even start about Jean-Luc “The line must be drawn here” Picard.

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The Borg have been retconned from the beginning. Originally they were meant to be insectoid aliens, but then that was changed due to budgetary restraints to humanoids with cybernetic enhancements. In the episode where the Enterprise first encounters the Borg they do not attempt any assimilation of humans, and that attribute is only added in later episodes. So the Borg have assimilated new attributes throughout history, with First Contact continuing that noble tradition.

As for time travel, there is almost no story where it makes sense so it’s not a big deal to me. I imagine that the Borg would rather not resort to time travel themselves for just these paradoxical reasons, but when they are at risk of being destroyed why not?

Picard’s strange characterization is probably the worst part of the movie from a continuity perspective, but you’re going to set yourself up for disappointment if you expect any of the Star Trek movies to be particularly true to the TV shows. I view First Contact largely in isolation, and in that way it succeeds brilliantly. Kind of like TLJ actually. It’s when you try and reconcile it with the larger story that the issues appear.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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pittrek said:

Warbler said:

pittrek said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I liked Insurrection…

Me too. It feels like a long TNG episode, which for many people is a problem, and it contradicts an episode of TNG, but compared to Nemesis it’s a masterpiece.

Which episode did Insurrection contradict?

I don’t remember the English titles of the episodes, but there was the last episode with Wesley, I think season 7 - the situation was similar - the Federation has decided to forcefully remove a colony of American Indians because somebody else wanted it. Picard’s attitude was “I don’t like it, but it’s an order”. In Insurrection the situation is very similar, but now for some reason Picard decides to do a small insurrection to defend them.

Wil Wheaton has a cameo at Troi and Riker’s wedding, in a starfleet dress uniform. It contradicts Wesley leaving Starfleet to follow the Traveler. (The episode is called Journey’s End.)

Insurrection doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, especially considering that the people living on the planet were not originally from there. And this is not even the second time the Enterprise has been told to move colonists. The colonists in Journey’s End are among those who form the Maquis, due to the borders between the Federation and Cardassian territories being redrawn—but also there was The Ensigns of Command, where Data alone has to convince a large colony to move rather than be exterminated by the Sheliak.

So Picard’s decision to defy Starfleet in Insurrection does indeed seem really arbitrary.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

pittrek said:

Warbler said:

pittrek said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I liked Insurrection…

Me too. It feels like a long TNG episode, which for many people is a problem, and it contradicts an episode of TNG, but compared to Nemesis it’s a masterpiece.

Which episode did Insurrection contradict?

I don’t remember the English titles of the episodes, but there was the last episode with Wesley, I think season 7 - the situation was similar - the Federation has decided to forcefully remove a colony of American Indians because somebody else wanted it. Picard’s attitude was “I don’t like it, but it’s an order”. In Insurrection the situation is very similar, but now for some reason Picard decides to do a small insurrection to defend them.

Wil Wheaton has a cameo at Troi and Riker’s wedding, in a starfleet dress uniform. It contradicts Wesley leaving Starfleet to follow the Traveler. (The episode is called Journey’s End.)

Insurrection doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, especially considering that the people living on the planet were not originally from there. And this is not even the second time the Enterprise has been told to move colonists. The colonists in Journey’s End are among those who form the Maquis, due to the borders between the Federation and Cardassian territories being redrawn—but also there was The Ensigns of Command, where Data alone has to convince a large colony to move rather than be exterminated by the Sheliak.

So Picard’s decision to defy Starfleet in Insurrection does indeed seem really arbitrary.

In both Ensigns of Command and Journey’s End, the situation is of a Federation species in Non-Federation space, which in both cases may be destroyed if they are not evacuated. The situation in Insurrection is very different, since the colony is not under imminent threat of destruction from a non-Federation force.

The argument that the colonists aren’t originally from that planet is sort of a non-sequitur, since the same situation applies in Journey’s End and Picard recognizes that their new home is just as legitimate as Earth.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Ethan Peck is the new Spock for Discovery season 2.

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NeverarGreat said:

The Borg have been retconned from the beginning. Originally they were meant to be insectoid aliens, but then that was changed due to budgetary restraints to humanoids with cybernetic enhancements. In the episode where the Enterprise first encounters the Borg they do not attempt any assimilation of humans, and that attribute is only added in later episodes. So the Borg have assimilated new attributes throughout history, with First Contact continuing that noble tradition.

Sounds like heartbreak to me.

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pittrek said:

Why are they trying to assimilate mankind? Didn’t they use to assimilate races to get technological advances? What can they get by assimilating a bunch of savages which barely survived a world war?

That one’s easy. Humans are an integral part of the Federation. Without humanity in the way their conquest of the Alpha Quadrant would be simple.

The biggest Borg retcon that always and still does bother me, is having 7 of 9’s parents be scientists who specialize in the study of the Borg. The Borg had no interest in the Alpha Quadrant until Q dragged the Enterprise into the Delta Quadrant to mess with Picard. And yet somehow years prior you have people studying them? Makes no sense.

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Here’s something that’s been nagging me for years now — why was James Doohan’s missing finger always obscured on TOS? Vanity on Doohan’s part? Or were missing digits just too taboo to show on 1960s television?

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Good question! Possibly a little of both? How many amputees did we see on 1960’s tv outside of The Fugitive? (The infamous One Armed Man wasn’t even in every episode.) Even regularly appearing handicapped characters seem to be rare at the time. Raymond Burr’s Ironside was likely the first wheelchair bound character to be a main character on a tv series in 1967.

Silent film star Harold Lloyd lost a thumb and a forefinger in when a prop bomb he was handling for a photo shoot exploded, and wore a flesh colored glove in his films to conceal it.

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Where were you in '77?

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pittrek said:

Ethan Peck is the new Spock for Discovery season 2.

Ugh. Spock shouldn’t be on that show. I saw the trailer, and the way they worded “It all leads to Spock!!!” or something like that was ridiculous. Spock was literally just a guy in the original show. A conflicted, important Starfleet guy, but still just a guy.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Here’s something that’s been nagging me for years now — why was James Doohan’s missing finger always obscured on TOS? Vanity on Doohan’s part? Or were missing digits just too taboo to show on 1960s television?

Handicaps and injuries weren’t really talked about much in a positive or at least non-negative way until the 1980s, generally. Just look at how TOS treats Captain Pike.

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Even war injuries, which today are respected as an incredible sacrifice for the country, were viewed as making someone ‘crippled’ and therefore worthy of less respect. It was a fucked up world in many ways.

EDIT: To be fair to the show’s treatment of Pike, that episode wanted him to be completely debilitated to the point of living a miserable existence. If he weren’t in such rough shape then the episode would’ve been much less compelling.

The Person in Question

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I doubt one’s body being completely ravaged by radiation was a common thing for most people in the 60’s, certainly not from exposure aboard a damaged Class J Starship. It was a Sci-Fi trope usually leading to mutation of one kind or another.
In The Menagerie, it was a plot device to get around the absence of Jeffrey Hunter, and a plausible reason for Pike to willingly re-join the Talosians more than anything else.

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Where were you in '77?

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Spock is becoming the Elmo of Star Trek.

The blue elephant in the room.