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Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 821

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Surprise, there’s assholes everywhere.

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Mrebo said:

Nazi punchers anonymous

And once again, there’s a total failure by most of the rightwing to unequivocally condemn the Nazis themselves. The fact that some of the anti-Nazi protesters attacked police and journalists does not mean that the anti-fascist demonstrators are just as bad as the neoNazis themselves. I’m getting really tired of this false equivalence.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

Nazi punchers anonymous

And once again, there’s a total failure by most of the rightwing to unequivocally condemn the Nazis themselves. The fact that some of the anti-Nazi protesters attacked police and journalists does not mean that the anti-fascist demonstrators are just as bad as the neoNazis themselves. I’m getting really tired of this false equivalence.

I like how you characterize apologetics and whataboutism into…how dare you draw a false equivalence - even if nobody is doing that. What does the rightwing have to do with that Vox article?

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

Nazi punchers anonymous

And once again, there’s a total failure by most of the rightwing to unequivocally condemn the Nazis themselves. The fact that some of the anti-Nazi protesters attacked police and journalists does not mean that the anti-fascist demonstrators are just as bad as the neoNazis themselves. I’m getting really tired of this false equivalence.

I like how you characterize apologetics and whataboutism into…how dare you draw a false equivalence - even if nobody is doing that. What does the rightwing have to do with that Vox article?

I don’t really care about Vox; I’m talking about the phenomena in general. I’m also talking about the rightwing apologetics and false equivalences that they do every time violence erupts at a Nazi rally. They did it at the first Unite the Right rally too. The president himself even refused to condemn neoNazism and blamed “both sides” for the violence. Thanks for ignoring my point, by the way. I always enjoy having my argument ignored completely in favor of some obnoxious gibberish. I really don’t even understand your post. The apologetics for the alt-right has always been that aspects of the left are just as bad. Trump’s “violence on both sides” bullshit is the very definition of a false equivalence.

The Person in Question

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As I understand it about 20 weirdos marched around in a circle for a little while and that’s what you’re concerned about. I think the proper thing is to not give those people any attention. You think, however, that
“most of the rightwing” needs to talk about them as if they’re actually significant. And you raise all this in response to a post about violent nitwits, as if somehow they’re excused because there were other nitwits that spurred them into gathering. Your post makes no sense.

The blue elephant in the room.

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 (Edited)

I’ve made a lot of posts that make no sense, but my last post in here made perfect sense.

EDIT: Trust me, I’m a very stable genius.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

I’ve made a lot of posts that make no sense, but my last post in here made perfect sense.

EDIT: Trust me, I’m a very stable genius.

You have my vote in the next election.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

As I understand it about 20 weirdos marched around in a circle for a little while and that’s what you’re concerned about.

Nice job acting like they just think the Earth is flat.

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TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

As I understand it about 20 weirdos marched around in a circle for a little while and that’s what you’re concerned about.

Nice job acting like they just think the Earth is flat.

Sure.

The blue elephant in the room.

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If you think that these white nationalists are just a tiny fringe, then you’re absolutely delusional. One of them is running as the GOP candidate for Congress in an Illinois (I think) district. The fact that this rally had an embarrassing turnout doesn’t mean that they aren’t an incredibly despicable group that’s capable of very dangerous things.

The Person in Question

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To be fair, prior to 2016, I also had an image of Nazis that was more out of Hogan’s Heroes than historical reality. Sure, we had a few of our own, even some in government. But Steve King was never going to amount to anything more than a punchline, right? Grounded in such a ridiculous ideology, how could you not just laugh dismissively at them? But once they start running the show, even though they don’t give you any fewer reasons to laugh dismissively at them, you do so at your peril. They are deadly serious. Oh, they might not fare so well in the next elections, that is certainly true. But there are other ways to take power, and they’re open to all of them, all the time.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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If I were the proverbial person from Mars and you wanted to convince me that Naziism/white supremacy is gaining a foothold in US society and politics, these aren’t convincing examples.

  1. A guy in Illinois with no chance of winning who was completely disavowed by the GOP

  2. 20 people holding signs.

  3. Steve King who has been in Congress 15 years. During that time he’s said ignorant and racist things but he’s not an insurgent Nazi.

It should go without saying you can find people with loathesome views. You can find violent racists. What I see totally lacking is a popular appeal that would give Nazis/white supremacists power. The pathetic turnout for the recent “rally” supports my view.

In these discussions I see the definitions blurred so that Nazi becomes a general slur against positions that may be objectionable but don’t belong to Nazis/white supremacists, like nativist/anti-immigrant positions. Those ideas have had some sway throughout our history. I don’t like those views either. The idea that civil society is done and there’s a whole bunch of Hitlerites running around that need punching is not supported by the facts.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Nativism and anti-immigrant positions do belong to Nazis and white supremacists.

The Person in Question

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Mrebo said:

The idea that civil society is done and there’s a whole bunch of Hitlerites running around that need punching is not supported by the facts.

It’s really just an extension of how divisive and polarized American society has become. Both the left and the right so demonize each other, that to the right the left are filled with crazy oversensitive hippy tree-hugging [gay expletive]s; and to the left the right is filled with hate-mongering flag-worshiping gun-toting racist misogynist ignorant hillbillies.

And the media, especially political pundits/commentators, just feed off of all of it and add fuel to the fire by legitimizing the opposing argument. The problem with white nationalism these days is it no longer feels fringe. The fact that a President was elected on nationalist ideals and hires white nationalists to work for him, it has given nationalists the opportunity to come out of the woodwork rather than simply circlejerk each other on racist subreddits.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

The idea that civil society is done and there’s a whole bunch of Hitlerites running around that need punching is not supported by the facts.

It’s really just an extension of how divisive and polarized American society has become. Both the left and the right so demonize each other, that to the right the left are filled with crazy oversensitive hippy tree-hugging [gay expletive]s; and to the left the right is filled with hate-mongering flag-worshiping gun-toting racist misogynist ignorant hillbillies.

One of those is significantly worse than the other.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

The idea that civil society is done and there’s a whole bunch of Hitlerites running around that need punching is not supported by the facts.

It’s really just an extension of how divisive and polarized American society has become. Both the left and the right so demonize each other, that to the right the left are filled with crazy oversensitive hippy tree-hugging [gay expletive]s; and to the left the right is filled with hate-mongering flag-worshiping gun-toting racist misogynist ignorant hillbillies.

One of those is significantly worse than the other.

My point is it’s a caricature. We, as a nation, will not accomplish anything if we’re so indoctrinated into this behavior of vilifying each other.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

The idea that civil society is done and there’s a whole bunch of Hitlerites running around that need punching is not supported by the facts.

It’s really just an extension of how divisive and polarized American society has become. Both the left and the right so demonize each other, that to the right the left are filled with crazy oversensitive hippy tree-hugging [gay expletive]s; and to the left the right is filled with hate-mongering flag-worshiping gun-toting racist misogynist ignorant hillbillies.

One of those is significantly worse than the other.

A more up-to-date vision of the left from the right is that of violent masked members of Antifa roving the country, supported by the sinister Hollywood elite and SJWs. But yes, caricatures all around.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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moviefreakedmind said:

Nativism and anti-immigrant positions do belong to Nazis and white supremacists.

You might wish that but history says otherwise. A dispute over open/closed borders isn’t cause for violence.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Conservatives set their hair on fire when Democrats are in office, insisting they’re trying to establish socialism (or even communism) in the US. All kinds of associations and statements are offered as evidence. Socialism actually does get a following and respect among Dems but I think it’s still a fringe view, Bernie and Ocasio-Cortez notwithstanding. I don’t think I’m too complacent about that odious ideology, just realistic about the lacking acceptance of it. I recall the Left going ballistic when the Right called Obama and his policies socialist. The definition of socialism was trotted out as refutation, and they were right. That’s not to say I supported the policies or wasn’t concerned they could be used as stepping stones to socialism, but if “socialist” or “Nazi” have any real meaning they shouldn’t be thrown around so willy nilly.

Bush was accused of trying to establish a theocracy. That was similarly absurd. This is the same old song and dance with the same sparse evidence. Except now it’s being used to justify Leftist violence.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Nativism and anti-immigrant positions do belong to Nazis and white supremacists.

You might wish that but history says otherwise. A dispute over open/closed borders isn’t cause for violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics)
“Nativism is the political policy of promoting the interests of native inhabitants against those of immigrants.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
“Nationalism is a political, social and economic system characterized by the promotion of the interests of a particular nation, especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining sovereignty over the homeland.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
“Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism, identifying the Germans as a part of what the Nazis regarded as an Aryan or Nordic master race. It aimed to overcome social divisions and create a German homogeneous society based on racial purity which represented a people’s community.”

 
So yeah, anti-immigrant (that is non-native) positions do belong to Nazis and white supremacists. Arguments over open or closed borders are a singular aspect in a larger argument. There are more layers than just arguing over border security (like how to secure them, and against whom they should be secured). To say “A dispute over open/closed borders isn’t cause for violence” mischaracterizes the argument.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Mrebo said:

Conservatives set their hair on fire when Democrats are in office, insisting they’re trying to establish socialism (or even communism) in the US. All kinds of associations and statements are offered as evidence. Socialism actually does get a following and respect among Dems but I think it’s still a fringe view, Bernie and Ocasio-Cortez notwithstanding. I don’t think I’m too complacent about that odious ideology, just realistic about the lacking acceptance of it. I recall the Left going ballistic when the Right called Obama and his policies socialist. The definition of socialism was trotted out as refutation, and they were right. That’s not to say I supported the policies or wasn’t concerned they could be used as stepping stones to socialism, but if “socialist” or “Nazi” have any real meaning they shouldn’t be thrown around so willy nilly.

Bush was accused of trying to establish a theocracy. That was similarly absurd. This is the same old song and dance with the same sparse evidence. Except now it’s being used to justify Leftist violence.

The problem is you’re comparing socialism and white supremacy as equally “odious” ideologies.

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chyron, think there is a misconception. Nativism and nationalism predate and exist independently of Naziism/white supremacy. That is why I contest that they belong to those ideologies. I’m not saying they aren’t also part of those ideologies.

And of course the debate over borders is much broader. People of all different ethnicities and political views may dislike immigrants coming to work here. And that’s not ‘border security,’ there’s nativism there but also simple economic selfishness. This is all much more complicated than Nazis!

The blue elephant in the room.