Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 147

Collipso said:

Possessed said:

Plus as was already stated Luke learned some tricks without any training as well. Who taught him to pull the Lightsaber out of the snow in the cave on hoth? Sure wasn’t Ben. All Ben was shown doing was shooting at him with a remote, which he also seemingly picked up blocking on his own with Ben just giving some general musing about reaching out and such. And he sure seems to have picked up quite a few skills by the start of Return of the Jedi that he didn’t have any the end of ESB and as far as I know he never went back to degobah for more training.

my understanding of Luke pulling the lightsaber out of the snow in Hoth in TESB is: he was completely hopeless and desperate and basically reached out to the force, his only hope. i think he felt the lightsaber and had no idea that he’d be able to pull it using the force, but that he decided to reach out to it with the force nonetheless, simply trusting the force not sure what was going to happen. that’s why it’s such a powerful moment to me. it’s a moment where he believing in the force manages to get himself saved, by doing something incredible, which was pulling the lightsaber out of the snow.

not sure if i was clear enough but i watched a video at some point where the guy worded the way i feel perfectly. i’ll look for it in the future.

 

and for people saying that Luke mastered blaster deflection within minutes: i think he succeeded at reaching out and stretching out with his feelings to the point of almost seeing the remote, like he and Ben say, which is the very very first baby step one must take. that’s not even close to mastering the skill. the kids in AotC are doing the very same thing he was doing to improve their affinity with the force and i think they did that for hours and days and weeks until they were close to perfect, or totally in line with the force.

plus, Han said in the very same scene Luke deflected three blaster bolts that “good against the remote is one thing. good against the living, is something else”, to which no one replies anything contrary, meaning that everyone agrees with what he said.

so yeah, my interpretation is that that scene was just to show that Luke was starting to tap into the force and was starting to have a new understanding of the world because of the force. not that he picked up the skill of deflecting blaster bolts, which i don’t think he did.

and it’s absurd to me to say that he used the force more than as a guide for his instincts and feelings in the trench run when he blew up the death star.

My take on this is that this is a skill that is highly useful, but not easy to master. First, you deflect the blaster bolt. And I think Han was speaking out of ignorance so I don’t take his words to mean much. If the force surrounds all living things, then a person with a gun should be as easy to sense as a remote. The gun itself as easy as the remote. But stopping the blaster bolt is just the first step. If you want to master the skill, you need to be able to direct the deflected bolt to use as a return attack. So first you perfect this in practice, then in a more real world practice, then in the real world. So far Rey hasn’t done much practicing and this is a skill she hasn’t even seen or attempted yet.

right, i was just pointing out that Luke didn’t master the skill instantly like some were saying.

Mocata said:

Collipso said:

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

such as? i can only think of the mind trick that was in the movie to basically tell the audience that Luke had grown from novice in SW to master in RotJ. other than that…

New powers in ROTJ were force choke and force mind trick… which he learned by copying others. In the established screen canon he doesn’t even learn to sword fight. He never learns speed / jump powers either. Or the telekinesis. OR the power to sense Vaders feelings. What exactly is the problem suddenly? This thread is just all over the place. Rey is learns too quickly. Luke was out of character. The Phantom Menace was a good film. Jeez.

Luke saw Ben mind tricking the stormtrooper back in Mos Eisley and Ben told him that “the force can have a strong influence on the weak minded”, and the meaning i got from that is that while the concept of a mind trick isn’t really hard to get, one must be really in tune and have a master’s control of the force to be able to perform it. that is why Luke mind tricking Bib Fortuna at Jabba’s Palace means he’s grown from novice to master. regarding Luke choking the guards: i think that force choke is just another way to use telekinesis, something he figured out by himself in a time of need in TESB.

in the OT it’s left apparent that one’s progression in sword fighting goes along with one’s progression of the mastery of the force. i guess that makes sense, given that the more you master the force the faster your reflexes are going to be, so yeah.

and Luke was in his physical peak during the OT and we watched Yoda push him to his physical limit while in Dagobah; so that, alongside the use of the force, makes me not see any sort of problem in him doing martial arts jumps and stuff.

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

You are right. That is why I’ve been saying her life on Jakku provided the training she needed. Ignoring the possibility that life can teach you what you need before you actually need it is ignoring a very real occurance. What I do every day right now at work, I learned how to do by accident years ago. I literally fell into the job I have now because of things I’d done years before working for my current employer. And we are talking about a fictional character in a fictional world in a story based on mythic heroes so having a character who has life experiences that prepared them for their journey is natural. You are maintaining the the skills a Jedi need are unique and I am saying they probably aren’t. You need to believe in yourself and trust your abilities (at least that is what I’ve always understood from Yoda and Obi-wan’s lessons - which are mirrored in Samurai training). Rey shows that she has learned those lessons already. Luke had not. What we need to be asking is what is Rey’s journey in this trilogy. She has the disciple, the force skills come easy for her, so those are just tools she needs. Her demons relate to being abandoned by her parents, needing guidance, both in general and what it is to be a Jedi. It is more than having these amazing powers. Powers do not a Jedi make.

In theory I like the ‘school of hard knocks’ idea with regard to Rey’s training. It provides an interesting contrast to the Luke/Anakin experience. The problem is where to place the limits. The OT and PT were all about discipline and struggle and earning the Jedi mantle. You mentioned the Karate Kid at one point. If I remember correctly poor little Ralph Macchio hated the ‘wax on’ routine. He also felt like a moron standing there like a flamingo. That was the whole point, that he had to master himself in order to become a master.

Rey’s doesn’t struggle with anything. Ever. Mind tricks? Got it. Telekinesis? Easy! Resisting the Dark Side? Eh, child’s play! This breaks canon. Both the OT and PT emphasised the learning curve associated with becoming a Jedi Knight. The ST says there is no learning curve. Even Broom Boy levitates stuff without breaking a sweat.

When Luke met Han in ANH, Han stipulated that he’d never seen anything in all his travels that made him believe in the Force. Surely he would’ve come across something Force-like if these powers really do manifest X-Men style in any old Tom, Dick, and Harry? No, these traits were set up to be mysterious and rare. And more importantly - earned. Leia never had attitude problems. Why didn’t her powers just appear at the first sight of a broom?

Speculating that these powers are no big deal and that Luke simply didn’t have the right attitude diminishes the character of Luke Skywalker and the OT. That may be okay for some but not for me. Midichlorians were bad enough. The notion that Luke was merely a crap Jedi, or that the Force automatically ‘awakens’ in certain folks in order to consciously restore its own balance smacks of desperation to me. These new movies are beautiful and fun and have a great cast, but the writing seems more concerned with fanservice and big moments than actually telling a coherent story that respects (and expands upon without contradicting) the established lore.

screams in the void said:

“plus, Han said in the very same scene Luke deflected three blaster bolts that “good against the remote is one thing. good against the living, is something else”, to which no one replies anything contrary, meaning that everyone agrees with what he said.” …this argument does not hold up , just because someone does not speak to ignorance does not equate to agreement , as evidenced by Kenobi’s line later asking who is the more foolish , the fool , or the fool who follows him ?

agreed that it’s the weakest argument of my post. and i agree that han was just being ignorant and wanting to have the last say on the thing, but i still think he had a point.

Collipso said:
one must be really in tune and have a master’s control of the force to be able to perform it. that is why Luke mind tricking Bib Fortuna at Jabba’s Palace means he’s grown from novice to master.

But there’s no evidence for this at all. We can infer that Luke reached this level by using the same powers as Obi-wan perhaps. But again it turns into a nonsensical discussion about power levels, limit breaks and experience points.

in the OT it’s left apparent that one’s progression in sword fighting goes along with one’s progression of the mastery of the force. i guess that makes sense, given that the more you master the force the faster your reflexes are going to be, so yeah.

and Luke was in his physical peak during the OT and we watched Yoda push him to his physical limit while in Dagobah; so that, alongside the use of the force, makes me not see any sort of problem in him doing martial arts jumps and stuff.

But Yoda never shows him any sort of blocks and parries etc. and the running and jumping tricks he uses are more physical than the kind of sudden rush of speed he uses to escape the carbon freeze. There are lots of gaps and it’s all just fine. I just don’t see the kind of perfect training regimen that people seem to demand Rey experience to get any skills at all. It’s all just grasping straws.

Collipso said:

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

such as? i can only think of the mind trick that was in the movie to basically tell the audience that Luke had grown from novice in SW to master in RotJ. other than that…

Maybe “new skills” isn’t correct, but enhanced surely is. He made a few impressive jumps in esb sure, but those were some pretty fancy acrobatics he pulled off on the sail barge that in the movies were unprecedented. Not to mention how much better he is with a Lightsaber. And he deflects laser bolts on endor with ease, something I don’t think yoda could hasn’t taught him. And he senses vaders presence/mindset. So new skills include force choke and mind control, but all old skills are also super enhanced and polished all the sudden with no extra training besides practicing ON HIS OWN.

Possessed said:

Collipso said:

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

such as? i can only think of the mind trick that was in the movie to basically tell the audience that Luke had grown from novice in SW to master in RotJ. other than that…

Maybe “new skills” isn’t correct, but enhanced surely is. He made a few impressive jumps in esb sure, but those were some pretty fancy acrobatics he pulled off on the sail barge that in the movies were unprecedented. Not to mention how much better he is with a Lightsaber. And he deflects laser bolts on endor with ease, something I don’t think yoda could hasn’t taught him. And he senses vaders presence/mindset. So new skills include force choke and mind control, but all old skills are also super enhanced and polished all the sudden with no extra training besides practicing ON HIS OWN.

right. i have no problem with that, because he had been exposed to everything and had sort of been given instructions on how to do everything. so ‘practice makes perfect’ + his affinity with the force growing steadily = how he evolved from TESB to RotJ. there were a few years in between the two movies i think so everything’s perfectly believable imo.

Possessed said:

Collipso said:

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

such as? i can only think of the mind trick that was in the movie to basically tell the audience that Luke had grown from novice in SW to master in RotJ. other than that…

Maybe “new skills” isn’t correct, but enhanced surely is. He made a few impressive jumps in esb sure, but those were some pretty fancy acrobatics he pulled off on the sail barge that in the movies were unprecedented. Not to mention how much better he is with a Lightsaber. And he deflects laser bolts on endor with ease, something I don’t think yoda could hasn’t taught him. And he senses vaders presence/mindset. So new skills include force choke and mind control, but all old skills are also super enhanced and polished all the sudden with no extra training besides practicing ON HIS OWN.

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it. It’s not just the powers. Luke is like a whole other person in ROTJ. Calmer, cooler, wiser. Personally it’s always been somewhat disappointing to me that there’s that gap in his arc from ESB to ROTJ. Not that it’s a hard leap to believe he’d progress that way after ESB, I just wish we could have seen it. Luke’s overwhelming confidence in ROTJ just feels slightly unearned, and sorta kills the tension when it comes to whether or not he’ll actually resist the pull to the dark side in the end.

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week.

Probably doesn’t matter to the overall point but do we actually have something in the movie that indicates it’s been such a short period of time?

SilverWook said:

I got the impression Finn had been unconscious in the giant ziploc Bacta fluid bag for a few weeks at least.

As with the timelines in every Star Wars movie, it’s entirely ambiguous (and ultimately unimportant).

Also

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week. She may not be enlightened yet, but she’s apparently achieved enough focus and determination in a few days that her powers are only lacking in comparison to previous Jedi by mere degrees; a bit of finesse is all that truly separates her from the greats who came before.

To be clear I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is a Jedi’s powers are not what defines their mastery, or at least in in my opinion shouldn’t be. (To make a literal comparison, Anakin is implied to be possibly the most powerful Jedi in the order during ROTS, but he is not granted the rank of master.)

Whatever power in the force Rey has demonstrated is far less important to her status as a strong Jedi than factors like wisdom, knowledge, and discipline. Despite the raw strength she’s exhibited, her technique is never anything but messy. Her hard work and determination lets her be especially in tune with the force, but she doesn’t have the command of it yet that a Jedi would. She may have the spirit of a true Jedi, but she (again) is not a Jedi yet. She’s got some growing to do.

All of this is beside the fact that anyone who says TLJ makes Rey out to be the “best and most powerfulest Jedi ever” is completely ignoring the fact that the film goes out of its way to give the most impressive and impactful bit of force usage in the entire series to not Rey, but Luke… and then goes on to imply that he will live on as potentially the most legendary and inspirational Jedi ever. But Rey lifted some rocks though so they’re forcing her seem like she’s the bestest.

Rey is at least as powerful as the Jedi that have come before her? I must have missed those scenes of her taking on whole regimes of droids ask firing at her which she deflects with ease all while doing aerial acrobatics that would make Super Mario blush. Are those only in the bonus features or something? I didn’t watch all of those.

Honestly the idea that the level of power you have correlates to your status as a Jedi is basically the philosophy of the dark side. They value physical strength and offense above all when it comes to the force. With the Jedi it’s about far more.

“I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

How does that power manifest? In an unstoppable onslaught against the Imperial navy? Nope. Obi-wan’s power in the afterlife transcends the trappings and failings of the material world. His is a power that Vader literally couldn’t imagine - a power that had nothing to do at all with physical strength or attack.

Luke doesn’t truly become a Jedi until he stops fighting and tosses his lightsaber. It wasn’t his physical strength that helped him topple the Empire. It was his compassion. Luke’s greatest force power in ROTJ, the one that makes him a Jedi, and the one that kills the Emperor, is one that has him completely rejecting his own strength in combat that he has developed through rigorous training. And ultimately this is same reason why his actions in TLJ are the greatest we’ve seen any Jedi yet accomplish.

“A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense.”

Now what does this have to do with Rey? Well, it just means that, despite all her physical strength in the force (and her apparent skill in combat), we still haven’t seen her face the true test of what it means to be a Jedi. And that matters far more than whether she can already do a mind trick or not.

That and the idea that she even is as powerful as Luke or the other Jedi is silly. Basically she just doesn’t suck and is far better than your average Joe. Put her against a young obi wan or a luke whose actually trying to battle for his life and it would be no contest.

Yeah but I mean Luke starting picking things up pretty darn quick once he started learning too, much of it on his own. Perhaps not quite as quick as Rey, although I’m not prepared for the massive headache that comes from analyzing the passage of time in star wars movies. But I don’t think it’s totally incomparable.

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week.

Probably doesn’t matter to the overall point but do we actually have something in the movie that indicates it’s been such a short period of time?

Fair question, but I wouldn’t feel any better about it if it were a month or two.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week. She may not be enlightened yet, but she’s apparently achieved enough focus and determination in a few days that her powers are only lacking in comparison to previous Jedi by mere degrees; a bit of finesse is all that truly separates her from the greats who came before.

To be clear I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is a Jedi’s powers are not what defines their mastery, or at least in in my opinion shouldn’t be. (To make a literal comparison, Anakin is implied to be possibly the most powerful Jedi in the order during ROTS, but he is not granted the rank of master.)

Whatever power in the force Rey has demonstrated is far less important to her status as a strong Jedi than factors like wisdom, knowledge, and discipline. Despite the raw strength she’s exhibited, her technique is never anything but messy. Her hard work and determination lets her be especially in tune with the force, but she doesn’t have the command of it yet that a Jedi would. She may have the spirit of a true Jedi, but she (again) is not a Jedi yet. She’s got some growing to do.

All of this is beside the fact that anyone who says TLJ makes Rey out to be the “best and most powerfulest Jedi ever” is completely ignoring the fact that the film goes out of its way to give the most impressive and impactful bit of force usage in the entire series to not Rey, but Luke… and then goes on to imply that he will live on as potentially the most legendary and inspirational Jedi ever. But Rey lifted some rocks though so they’re forcing her seem like she’s the bestest.

I think when people talk about her being the most powerful Jedi ever, they don’t mean Rey is literally Luke’s superior at this point in time, but that she’s progressed much farther much faster than anyone before her, and given the pace at which she’s improving, it wouldn’t take much longer for her to surpass previous Jedi. It’s about the calendar time she’s taking to achieve her powers, not a direct power-to-power comparison.

Well if the complaint is that she could one day after the movies become the best Jedi ever, I don’t get the complaint. Why not?

My interpretation of a Jedi’s powers has always been that they grow as they approach mastery, and that mastery is attained based on the effort they put into both physical training and meditation. Regardless of one’s innate Force sensitivity, practicing mindfulness over some meaningful period of time was the key not just to their emotional growth, but physical capabilities and tricks like mind-reading.

If meditation is a requirement for building one’s power, as I believe it is, then Rey’s rapid advancement doesn’t make sense given her lack of meaningful time for meditation and can only be explained through plot devices like psychic ability transference, which frankly sounds like nonsense to me. You mention her hard work and determination letting her be in tune with the Force; what and why, exactly? The things she did to survive on Jakku? No doubt she worked hard, but I don’t see how a good work ethic on its own, primarily put into practice by salvaging parts, translates into a connection to the Force that allows her to hold her own against much more experienced students of the Force.

What I’m suggesting is Luke had his head a bit too much in the clouds, and if it wasn’t for that and his impatience, he maybe could’ve done what Rey did too (there are other potential factors to Rey’s innate ability too, but that’s not really important to what I’m talking about). You mention meditation is necessary for force connection, and I agree. I think Rey’s isolated life on Jakku lead to her being a person with a particularly good sense of focus. Little 9 year old Anakin comes from a similar hardworking upbringing as Rey, and we see he’s far more in touch already with the force than decade-older Luke (how exactly otherwise is a literal child the only human who can successfully pod race?).

I think it’s entirely likely Abrams wanted people swinging lightsabers at each other in TFA, and since his cliffhanger ending rested upon Luke being a no-show until the final scene, Kylo needed an opponent who could at least hold their own. Enter Rey with her microwave dinner Force powers and the touched upon, but never explained, potentially Force-sensitive Finn.

“Microwave dinner Force powers” - first time I’ve heard this ‘Unkar’s portions make one force sensitive’ theory, but I can’t say I hate it.

I will say I think there’s something that was lost during TFA some way along the process in regards to the “awakening” of the force, which is likely part of JJ’s overall streamlining the film for general audiences. It’s somewhat disappointing, but I personally don’t feel like it affects the quality of the film in a significant way.

Maybe it’s just my interpretation but I don’t see her as THAT powerful. Luke had some training sure, but he was largely self taught and look at how powerful he was in ROTJ, largely on his own merit. Yes he had more time to get there than Rey had, but he’s also far more powerful than Rey has become so the time is spent. Perhaps if you want to analyze it so hard as to calculate how proportionally they each learned per week or something it could seem off, but come on its a movie. They both had the power to become great. One already achieved it, one is still on the journey. Who cares if at point x Rey is a certain level while like was at a different level at the same point, it’s a movie. It’s not like Rey IS as powerful as Luke or any Jedi, she’s just shown to have the potential to be, and probably will be after some time. I don’t see how that’s so far off from Luke who still picked it marginally faster than any jedi was shown to in the prequels. Perhaps teachers and resources for learning just got better over time.