Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 146

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I’m not investigating the reason for her victories, only that they seem to happen. And she did win in TLJ. Just think it through. If two people who are battling alone get knocked unconscious, the first one to recover has the power of life or death over the other. Rey has won. That she doesn’t kill Kylo doesn’t change the fact that she was completely capable of doing so.

Hero doesn’t kill unconscious villain. Big powerful victory there.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Ha, you’re not going to trap me into pedantically stating that movies are usually designed to make the villains seem overwhelmingly powerful and the hero’s situation dire. You’re definitely not going to make me say that it’s important to show that the villains are an existential threat to our heroes on every level, because that’s just an obvious statement about movies that everyone knows.

The Resistance fits on the Falcon at the end of the film. Not dire at all.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I’m not investigating the reason for her victories, only that they seem to happen. And she did win in TLJ. Just think it through. If two people who are battling alone get knocked unconscious, the first one to recover has the power of life or death over the other. Rey has won. That she doesn’t kill Kylo doesn’t change the fact that she was completely capable of doing so.

Hero doesn’t kill unconscious villain. Big powerful victory there.

Glad that you acknowledge it.

It’s a shame they didn’t show us this epic heroic moment.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Ha, you’re not going to trap me into pedantically stating that movies are usually designed to make the villains seem overwhelmingly powerful and the hero’s situation dire. You’re definitely not going to make me say that it’s important to show that the villains are an existential threat to our heroes on every level, because that’s just an obvious statement about movies that everyone knows.

The Resistance fits on the Falcon at the end of the film. Not dire at all.

They have everything that they need, apparently. They’ll be fine.
At least, that’s what I got from it.

It’s called hope. Running theme in the saga actually.

That’s a running theme in the ST, mixed signals, and confusing messages. The FO get their home base blown up, yet it doesn’t stop them from walking all over the NR and the Resistance in a matter of days. They reign according to the opening crawl, yet they apparently do not yet control the all the major systems. The rebels are reduced to a few people on board a space cruiser, yet they have everything they need, and are the spark that will light the fire yada yada. Luke went looking for the first Jedi Temple, seemingly leaving a map to his location, yet he only went there to die, and doesn’t want to be found. Rey is a novice, and not a Jedi, yet she has most if not all of a Jedi’s powers, and is continually referred to as Kylo Ren’s equal in the light, Kylo who by Snoke’s own admission has completed his training, and is now the big bad after taking his master’s place. All the elements of the OT are deliberately repurposed, but they are mixed up, and executed in a shoddy manner imo by taking narrative short cuts, compressing time scales, and by putting the cart before the horse.

Press release.

https://pressreleasejet.com/news/remake-the-last-jedi.html

Beyond pathetic.

JEDIT: $410m “pledged” lol.
remakethelastjedi.com

TV’s Frink said:

Press release.

https://pressreleasejet.com/news/remake-the-last-jedi.html

Beyond pathetic.

JEDIT: $410m “pledged” lol.
remakethelastjedi.com

They forgot to add the “I pledge a gazillion dollars” option. Had they done this, they could have remade TLJ in time for Christmas.

I don’t understand the point of remaking TLJ. All of the issues many people have with it (including myself) are rooted in TFA. The unexplained power/resources of the First Order, the rebels vs. empire deal, Luke being a dick and running away from his failures and Snoke’s rise with no explanation all started in TFA. Granted, TLJ had the opportunity to dive deeper into Snoke’s origin for example, but really the seeds of the issues were all in TFA. If TLJ outrages you, then TFA should too.

exactly. i absolutely hate most of what’s in TFA from the moment the Falcon appears until the end, while i’m ok with TLJ. everything that i’m arguing has been about the ST in general, not just TLJ.

Collipso said:

exactly. i absolutely hate most of what’s in TFA from the moment the Falcon appears until the end, while i’m ok with TLJ. everything that i’m arguing has been about the ST in general, not just TLJ.

I actually like TLJ a bit more than TFA as well. Ren killing snoke and assuming power is unexpected and could be an interesting dynamic, and Rey being overpowered is acknowledged by both Luke and Snoke. The weakest points are all just a continuation of the events of TFA: Luke being a hermit, First Order having ridiculous weapons, cartoonish FO officers (seriously, I miss the OT officers who were just doing their jobs and weren’t such caricatures) and of course the rebels vs. empire rehash. It’s the background elements of the entire ST (as established in TFA) that I and I suspect many people don’t like at all. TLJ had some good stuff between Rey and Ren which was new and original.

Plus as was already stated Luke learned some tricks without any training as well. Who taught him to pull the Lightsaber out of the snow in the cave on hoth? Sure wasn’t Ben. All Ben was shown doing was shooting at him with a remote, which he also seemingly picked up blocking on his own with Ben just giving some general musing about reaching out and such. And he sure seems to have picked up quite a few skills by the start of Return of the Jedi that he didn’t have any the end of ESB and as far as I know he never went back to degobah for more training.

As many of you have posted previously, all of the problems of the ST are rooted in TFA.

I’ve posted that I don’t understand why this mess of a movie had such an overwhelmingly positive reception. Apart from pretty much being SW 2.0, we have the First Order which is every bit as powerful and wealthy as its predecessor the Galactic Empire even when ROTJ + supplementary material have made it clear the Empire is no more and what remains is but a small fraction of what once was, yet that small fraction is somehow capable of taking an ENTIRE GALAXY back to the status quo, building a Death Star about 10-20 times BIGGER than the original and is WEALTHIER than the New Republic (see Rose’s line in Canto Bight about how only the First Order can make you this wealthy). I also disliked the fact that the FO was so loyal to Snoke, a random Force wielder with no previous connection to the Empire. The FO should have been lead by a Council of former high-ranking Imperial military officials and political figures, and if Snoke was needed at all it should have been as an advisor of sorts representing the mystical aspect of the FO, not as “Supreme Leader”. The FO should have also been portrayed as using guerrilla warfare, infiltration, espionage, sleeper cells, subtly gathering their strengths by conquering seemingly unimportant systems without the NR noticing, indoctrinating their conquered systems into absolute loyalty, using streamlined Imperial technology, slowly manipulating the politicians to earn their favour and so on and so forth. But no, instead we got the Nu-Empire.

With Abrams returning I expect Episode IX to be every bit as awful as TFA, yet everyone will probably praise him for “course-correcting” Star Wars. sigh

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

You are right. That is why I’ve been saying her life on Jakku provided the training she needed. Ignoring the possibility that life can teach you what you need before you actually need it is ignoring a very real occurance. What I do every day right now at work, I learned how to do by accident years ago. I literally fell into the job I have now because of things I’d done years before working for my current employer. And we are talking about a fictional character in a fictional world in a story based on mythic heroes so having a character who has life experiences that prepared them for their journey is natural. You are maintaining the the skills a Jedi need are unique and I am saying they probably aren’t. You need to believe in yourself and trust your abilities (at least that is what I’ve always understood from Yoda and Obi-wan’s lessons - which are mirrored in Samurai training). Rey shows that she has learned those lessons already. Luke had not. What we need to be asking is what is Rey’s journey in this trilogy. She has the disciple, the force skills come easy for her, so those are just tools she needs. Her demons relate to being abandoned by her parents, needing guidance, both in general and what it is to be a Jedi. It is more than having these amazing powers. Powers do not a Jedi make.

I can’t wait to hear what the general consensus about these movies will be 10 years from now. Personally i think fans will regard the ST much higher after some time has passed, but i could be wrong.

dahmage said:

I can’t wait to hear what the general consensus about these movies will be 10 years from now. Personally i think fans will regard the ST much higher after some time has passed, but i could be wrong.

People said that about the PT, apparently it’s kinda true (?), and I wanna know what those people are smoking.

Possessed said:

Plus as was already stated Luke learned some tricks without any training as well. Who taught him to pull the Lightsaber out of the snow in the cave on hoth? Sure wasn’t Ben. All Ben was shown doing was shooting at him with a remote, which he also seemingly picked up blocking on his own with Ben just giving some general musing about reaching out and such. And he sure seems to have picked up quite a few skills by the start of Return of the Jedi that he didn’t have any the end of ESB and as far as I know he never went back to degobah for more training.

my understanding of Luke pulling the lightsaber out of the snow in Hoth in TESB is: he was completely hopeless and desperate and basically reached out to the force, his only hope. i think he felt the lightsaber and had no idea that he’d be able to pull it using the force, but that he decided to reach out to it with the force nonetheless, simply trusting the force not sure what was going to happen. that’s why it’s such a powerful moment to me. it’s a moment where he believing in the force manages to get himself saved, by doing something incredible, which was pulling the lightsaber out of the snow.

not sure if i was clear enough but i watched a video at some point where the guy worded the way i feel perfectly. i’ll look for it in the future.

and for people saying that Luke mastered blaster deflection within minutes: i think he succeeded at reaching out and stretching out with his feelings to the point of almost seeing the remote, like he and Ben say, which is the very very first baby step one must take. that’s not even close to mastering the skill. the kids in AotC are doing the very same thing he was doing to improve their affinity with the force and i think they did that for hours and days and weeks until they were close to perfect, or totally in line with the force.

plus, Han said in the very same scene Luke deflected three blaster bolts that “good against the remote is one thing. good against the living, is something else”, to which no one replies anything contrary, meaning that everyone agrees with what he said.

so yeah, my interpretation is that that scene was just to show that Luke was starting to tap into the force and was starting to have a new understanding of the world because of the force. not that he picked up the skill of deflecting blaster bolts, which i don’t think he did.

and it’s absurd to me to say that he used the force more than as a guide for his instincts and feelings in the trench run when he blew up the death star.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

Yes, but like I said before, those high power levels were previously only attainable in two ways, the quick and easy path, where you lose your soul, or reaching a zen point. There’s a reason Luke shouldn’t have faced Vader in TESB. He wasn’t at the zen point yet, and so he also didn’t have the high power level to defeat him. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. Luke’s arc culminates in ROTJ with him reaching those high power levels, facing Vader and the Emperor, whilst believing Vader can be turned, ultimately leading to Luke rejecting the dark side, and he thus has the right to call himself a Jedi. Rey’s arc culminates in TLJ with her reaching those high power levels, facing Kylo and the Snoke, whilst believing Kylo can be turned, ultimately leading to Rey rejecting the dark side, and she isn’t a Jedi apparently. The confrontation in Snoke’s throne room delibirately echos ROTJ with characters expressing the same sentiments, and in some cases the same dialogue. Whilst Rey may have failed to redeem Ben Solo, she otherwise passed the same test, that Luke did in ROTJ, that made him worthy of being a Jedi. The irony here is that the same arguments, that were used to argue against Rey’s high power levels, which are rejected by TLJ fans, are now being used to argue she cannot be a Jedi, because that’s apparently a bridge too far. Well I say, if she can reach those high power levels in days, pass the test of facing up to evil, and reject the apple from the tree, telling the devil to stuff it, she can call herself a Jedi.

Ah, but we have a greater window into the ways of the Jedi than just the 10 movies to date. We have two Animated TV series, which are considered canon by TPTB. Each padawan is tested in a unique way that is customized to test their weaknesses. What Luke faced in ROTJ was not a fair test, but it was the only option open and it did the job. Rey would have to be tested on her weaknesses. The test is never about Jedi powers but about decisions. Anakin was probably passed too early with too easy a test. Just because Rey faced Snoke and rejected the dark side does not mean that should be her test. I didn’t feel she was even tempted.

But what does canon say a Jedi is. Obi-wan says this, “For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.” That is much more than powers. Yoda says this, “A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.” Again, more than powers. So just because Rey learns the powers easily does not mean she is a Jedi. She has had no training before Ach-to. And what Luke did, was not much more than what Obi-wan did for him. Rey already had the serious mind that Yoda spoke of. She is the exact opposite of how Yoda describes Luke. She never dreamed of adventure, she just wanted her family to come back for her. She took her work seriously where Luke didn’t and preferred to waste time with his friends. But Rey is not a Jedi yet. A Jedi is more than just a powerful force user. That is canon.

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

Yeah but he had plenty of time to go on side quests and level up before then.

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

such as? i can only think of the mind trick that was in the movie to basically tell the audience that Luke had grown from novice in SW to master in RotJ. other than that…

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Well, I disagree. What demons does she have to overcome either literally or figuratively, that she hasn’t already? How can she grow? Luke passed on the batton to her showing none of a master’s reservations, being confident she will become the next Jedi. Even Yoda makes a statement that echos the one he made to Luke in ROTJ, where he says there’s nothing in the tree, that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess, which should be taken both literally, and figuratively, I believe. TLJ’s ending feels more like the conclusion of a trilogy to many for a reason, and this is examplified by the way Rey is put on a pedestal having passed her trials, and saved the day.

Um… it is clear from the conversation between Yoda and Luke that Rey needs more training. Very clear. Yes, Luke is confident she will become the next Jedi, but not on her own. And when Yoda mentions the contents of the tree it is because he knows it is empty. I would say Rey is padawn level at this point. Having the powers but none of the wisdom of a Jedi. This did not feel even remotely like the conclusion to anything. Everything is up in the air. The arc for this movie for each character finished, but the overall arc the story is taking is hanging out there waiting for completion. TLJ left me with questions about if the First Order is going to succeed in taking over the Republic? If enough worlds and system will fight back. If the legends of the Jedi and Luke’s sacrifice on Crait will make a difference and relight the spark. Will this spill into galactic war or will this stay confined? Will the Jedi and Republic rise from this?

How you get this being a finale with Rey a full Jedi on a pedestal is beyond me.

Collipso said:

Possessed said:

And where did he pick up all those moves he used in Return of the Jedi that he didn’t learn from Yoda in esb? I believe he… Dare I even say it… Figured them out himself?

such as? i can only think of the mind trick that was in the movie to basically tell the audience that Luke had grown from novice in SW to master in RotJ. other than that…

New powers in ROTJ were force choke and force mind trick… which he learned by copying others. In the established screen canon he doesn’t even learn to sword fight. He never learns speed / jump powers either. Or the telekinesis. OR the power to sense Vaders feelings. What exactly is the problem suddenly? This thread is just all over the place. Rey is learns too quickly. Luke was out of character. The Phantom Menace was a good film. Jeez.

Jay said:

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

I don’t disagree. But I also don’t see what you mean, the finale of ROTJ is nothing like what happened so far in the ST outside Luke’s story.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

I guess I just don’t mind it that much. It’s more believable that she figured all these things out after contact with Kylo that it is Anakin can flight a Naboo starfighter.