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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 140

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 (Edited)

Chewielewis said:

I don’t see any conumdum here. I don’t accept the theory that Palpatine created Anakin, the idea that the force created Anakin in response to Palpatine makes a lot more sense. You could say the same thing about Rey, created by the force in response to Kylo/Snoke. the movie basically tells us this.

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey’s progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force. TLJ in essence tells us, she has no history, or family, no reason to exist other than where the ST takes her. Hence my thesis, that her main driving force for being the hero is a lack of a history, and character. She’s literally waiting on Jakku for the universe to give her a reason to exist. The universe gives her Force powers, and she almost instantly becomes the perfect hero.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

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 (Edited)

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

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Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Some good points about Jedi training and indoctrination, and I agree with you to a certain extent. However, everything we saw in the first six films indicates that guidance and meditation are required in order to maximize a Jedi’s powers and fully exploit the Force.

The extent of Anakin’s emergent powers in TPM is his ability to see into the future and anticipate things, and only to the point that it makes him appear to have superhuman reflexes. That’s it.

The extent of Luke’s powers in ANH are a few minutes against a remote where he “reaches out” and senses it, and the trench run where he’s told to “let go” and allow the Force to guide him while targeting the exhaust port. That’s all we got from Luke in his first go-round. He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force.

In TLJ, Rey successfully controls a trooper’s mind and holds her own in a lightsaber duel against a much more powerful, albeit injured, opponent, despite never having used a lightsaber before.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Luke failed to extract his X-Wing from the swamp and didn’t complete his training, and while he demonstrated some impressive maneuvers in his fight with his father, Vader toyed with him until he got his hand cut off and was forced to surrender. Whether that was a function of a lack of combat training or lack of proper meditation—probably both—he wasn’t adequately prepared.

After receiving a few lessons, Rey assaulted her teacher and got the drop on him with a lightsaber, then fought Snoke’s guards alongside Kylo and lifted a bunch of boulders like they weren’t even there, thus saving the day.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Not without precedent, but without training?

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

This is the crux of the problem. She’s not a character with an arc; she’s floating along and being handed her abilities by the universe in order to suit the narrative. No work, no progression, no setbacks, no loss. It’s a boring hero’s journey.

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MTFBWY…A

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yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

But here is where and why ROTJ is the oddball. Luke has faced Vader and lived. He starts out the story by rescuing Han. Jabba and his main henchmen and hangers on are all dead. Luke has mastered the powers and skills that Yoda taught. Luke is at the top of his game. He is the last Jedi (save Yoda on Dagobah). He turns himself in to Vader rather than risk his friends. He starts of determined not to fight. Why does he fight? The Emperor taps into his failings. The ones we’ve spent two movies dealing with. He incites Luke to draw and fight. That and Vader doing the same thing a little while later prove that Luke is not the poised Jedi Knight he is pretending to be. ROTJ shows that Luke is not perfect, but the overall impression is that he is now a full Jedi Knight. But he has a lot to learn yet. But now he has no teacher. The cracks showed on the Death Star. So when years later he establishes a Jedi school and half his students turn and kill the other half, Luke’s wave of success crumbles and his failings show for all to see. Just because they are nicely hidden in ROTJ does not mean they are not there. Many fans have speculated that he almost turned to the dark side - that he actually drew on the dark side to defeat his father. He has his father at his mercy and he hears the Emperor urge him to finish him and listens to something else that makes him stop and throw down his light saber (something he evidently did in a more permanent way after the fall of his school).

But to say that ROTJ clearly shows a changed Luke ignores all the flaws that the movie shows are clearly still there. The Luke of ROTJ is riding a wave of success and has matured, but those old tendencies to defeatism and recklessness are still there. Rian tapped into all the complexities of Luke from the OT when crafting the story for TLJ. If you gloss over the flaws that ROTJ shows are still there, or just ignore those parts of the movie, you get Luke the epic Hero. Luke the Legendary Jedi Knight. When you dig you find Luke the person and that person would do exactly what JJ and Rian have said he did. Even Mark Hamill has fallen for Luke the Hero. But once he got past the surface and realized what the story did, he agreed with it.

ROTJ is the aberration in Luke’s journey because it was his greatest success. His flaws were under control.

Well this is where it gets really interesting for me, because I actually think Luke’s actions in RoTJ are morally bankrupt. The essence is fine - Luke realises that he is a liability and turns himself in so that the mission can proceed. That stuff is great.

But the details ruin it for me. Luke says to Leia “if I don’t make it back, you’re the only hope for the Alliance”. This is arrogant nonsense. As I mentioned earlier, Luke is nothing but a liability. Furthermore his showdown with Vader/Palpatine has no bearing on the mission or the war.

Then he states that his mission is to try and turn Vader back to the ‘good side’. This is selfish in the extreme. Vader is a war criminal, a profoundly evil man. While it might be a nice idea for Luke personally, Luke’s primary focus should have been a) getting out of the way (which he stated) and b) taking down the Emperor even if it’s by way of making sure Palps is on the Death Star when it goes boom. That would be a noble mission and a very worthy one. Instead Luke’s spoken stance is “while you guys fight for the galaxy’s freedom I’m gonna go save my war-mongering dad”.

I will never understand the ethics of what goes down on the Death Star. Luke, a man who has killed countless enemy numbers and to great applause, suddenly decides that total pacifism is the key here - and only because he selfishly wants daddy to turn good. While people are fighting and dying all around him for the cause of freedom against a brutal dictatorship, Luke is hiding under a stairwell refusing to fight. After losing his temper and (rightfully IMO) beating Vader to a pulp, Luke throws his weapon aside and proudly declares his own enlightenment. Again, an actual war is being waged outside, and Luke is busy congratulating himself on his personal spiritual victory. He doesn’t challenge the Emperor. He doesn’t attempt to address the carnage being wrought by the Death Star or at least get Palpatine in a headlock and force him to recall his forces. No, he just stands there and boasts “I am Jedi”. Great. Meanwhile the actual galaxy is being saved by Chewbacca who has had the foresight to hijack a Scout Walker. Give that Wookiee a medal please!

So Luke gets fried and Vader, seeing his own flesh and blood in danger, kills the Emperor. Suddenly killing the bad guy becomes a viable path to enlightenment. Uh, okay. Vader and Luke hold hands and all is wonderful.

At best you could argue that Luke inadvertently prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the Death Star. But that was just a lucky consequence of Vader’s sudden sense of paternity. Luke’s actions had no bearing on the war. For all the build-up, for all the ‘that boy is our last hope’, Luke was pointless (outside of recruiting the Ewoks). If anything the idea of training a new Jedi Order - ie a bunch of guys who aren’t allowed to fight and could turn irreversibly evil at the drop of a hat - is ludicrous. The idea of Luke even becoming a legend for his actions on Death Star II is laughable.

The only thing Luke has going for him at this point is his unwavering dedication to family over doctrine. Remove that and you’re not left with much.

Well, I disagree with you strongly about all this.

First, Luke saves the strike team. By linking with the Ewoks, it leads to the eventual success. Without the Ewoks, the mission would have been a failure. Palpatine had planned for a strike team and had countered it, but he failed to counter for the Ewoks. Second, Luke confronting the Emperor ensured he remained on the Death Star. And if he killed the Emperor, the war was virtually over. And his insistence on not fighting was mostly against his father. In the end he threw down his light saber because he had tapped into the dark side, seen how tempting it was, and rejected fighting and anger as a way to win the day. And while Palpatine’s focus was on Luke, he wasn’t paying attention that the strike team had planted explosives and the only thing protecting him from the Rebel plan was about to go poof. While Palpatine was focused on Luke, his death was approaching. Luke took the Jedi path of non-violence to face Palpatine. Palpatine tries to kill him and it is the one thing that could trigger Vader to turn back to Anakin. This is one place where I think the PT made the OT more powerful. We know he lost Padme (something that could have always been guessed at with Luke and Leia being orphans from a young age) and he does not stand by to watch his son die.

And the entire redemption is that at the core, a person can find good even after horrible actions. In Star Wars we get the Dark Side which entices and temps, but in reality, power can corrupt. You call Vader a war criminal, and a profoundly evil man, but is that true? He is Palpatine’s lackey. He acts on his masters orders. He is a slave of Palpatine as much as he was a slave to Watto. Not that he is innocent by any means, or that he would not have been held accountable for his actions, but the point was his soul/spirit/force energy. Luke was able to redeem his father. Had he lived he would have been executed by the Rebels, but his sacrifice was heroic. Luke’s actions were heroic. It is an epic end to that part of the story. Luke saves his father who at the end killed the Emperor. And all the bad guys die. Ultimately Luke’s efforts are the key to the Rebel victory. They had hoped to catch the Emperor on the station and for him to die there, but Luke proved how easy it would have been for him to escape. That he did not was all on Luke. I’m sure the legend in universe got spun a bit. But the result is the Luke’s actions resulted in the Emperor’s death. Without Luke the strike team would not have succeeded and the Emperor would not have died. Luke’s journey then was not about the war.

Interesting how you have pointed out that even in ROTJ, Luke wasn’t as concerned with the Galaxy as the he was with the Jedi. That idea is echoed in why he is in self exile on Ach-To. In ROTJ, Luke goes to do what Yoda and Ben want him to do. None of them said anything about the Empire/Rebellion conflict. He doesn’t do it quite the way they think he should, but he goes all the same. He wants to save his father, they want him to destroy the Emperor. Nothing about helping the Galaxy. His attitude remains unchanged in TLJ. He has put down the saber after the fall of Kylo and his instructions to Rey (including in the deleted scenes) echoes the teachings of Yoda. Not to interfere. Luke is intent on letting the Jedi die. Yoda influences him to see otherwise. Rey has already taken the sacred texts. Yoda makes him see that she will be a Jedi and that if he thinks there are failures, he’d better go to her and fix it. For the first time since TESB, Luke acts to save his friends rather than follow the old Jedi teachings. Your point leads to interesting ideas.

Like I said, I agree about the Ewok thing. That was all Luke. But Palpatine? Yes, Luke’s actions inadvertently prevented Palpatine’s escape, but that was not Luke’s intention and he certainly did not pursue this directly. As the dialogue clearly states, Luke only cared about a) getting out of the way of the mission and b) turning Anakin to the ‘good side’.

Again, this was of no help to the cause whatsoever. At best Luke prevented Palpatine’s escape by accident. Hardly the stuff of legends and certainly not worthy of the build-up in the previous two films.

You say Luke rejected fighting and anger as a way of saving the day. Okay, but what was his alternative? Nothing. Wow, these Jedi are so useful! So it’s okay to destroy the first Death Star with all the collateral damage that entails? He even got a parade for that one (and ghost-Kenobi certainly didn’t complain or deem it a ‘path to the Dark Side’)! It’s okay to shoot down TIE fighters and AT-ATs full of people, or gun down stormtroopers willy nilly. But when the Emperor is shooting down entire shipfulls of sentient beings with a super-laser, even as your deadbeat dad is threatening to turn your sister into an evil agent, apparently turning on your lightsaber is a path to ‘the Dark Side’? This is ludicrous!

For me this would have made more sense if Luke’s focus was on the Emperor rather than on himself and his daddy issues. This could have been achieved with just a little dialogue. Instead of the “I can turn him back to the good side” stuff, Luke could have said to Leia something like “I’m endangering the group and our mission if I stay here. The best thing I can do is face the Emperor myself. I’ll keep him occupied while you and Han get the shield down.”

That right there would change (or restate) Luke’s intentions in a way that makes him as hero, a Jedi, and a legend. His focus is still the war, even though he’s been thrown a curve ball, and there’s nothing selfish about his path. He could still go through all the supposed temptation stuff (although I’d prefer something more sophisticated than ‘strike me down with all your hatred’ - Jedi are allowed to act in defence and, given the death toll, I think defence qualifies here) and the Anakin redemption could be an added bonus rather than Luke’s only goal. Palps could still fry Luke at some point, with Anakin saving the day and being redeemed, but it would all be for a greater good rather than simply Luke/Anakin’s religious trip and family reunion.

Everyone forgets how evil Vader actually was. The first thing he does in ANH is lift a guy by the neck and snap his trachea. Throughout TESB he murders everyone who annoys him. It’s kind of slapstick in the film, but it’s pretty brutal when you think about it. Luke was so horrified by the guy in TESB that he attempted suicide rather than side with him. Luke’s sudden softening towards Vader in RoTJ makes little sense. That’s why I think it would’ve been better if Luke’s focus had been on a rebel victory in RoTJ, with Vader’s turnaround being something of a nice surprise.

This would also tie in better with the events depicted in TLJ too, because redeeming family members irrespective of their war crimes would never have been Luke’s primary focus. So when he sees Kylo’s potential future, he might well give in to a moment’s despair because the fate of the galaxy would have been demonstrated as his primary concern, not just the spiritual well-being of his relatives.

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It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

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I think some great points have been made recently

  • what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).
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dahmage said:

I think some great points have been made recently

  • what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).

Aside from the references, and dialogue in the films, that in my view heavily suggest a Jedi prospect needs to study in order to reach his or her potential, here’s what George Lucas has to say about it:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life,” Lucas has said. “It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

So, in my view you are right when you say training has little to do with talent, but just like Muhammad Ali had many years of training before he could stand a chance of becoming a world champion, despite his obvious talent, so too must a talented Force user learn and train for many years before he or she can control the Force. To be talented, and to be good at it instantly without any training are two very different things imo.

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DrDre said:

dahmage said:

I think some great points have been made recently

  • what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).

Aside from the references in the film, that suggest a Jedi prospect needs to study in order to reach his or her potential, here’s what George Lucas has to say about it:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life,” Lucas has said. “It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

I appreciate Lucas’ statement, but to be honest, he has said so many contradictory things over the years, and what he has said isn’t always what he put in the movies, so i find it best to stick with what is in the movies.

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dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

I think some great points have been made recently

  • what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).

Aside from the references in the film, that suggest a Jedi prospect needs to study in order to reach his or her potential, here’s what George Lucas has to say about it:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life,” Lucas has said. “It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

I appreciate Lucas’ statement, but to be honest, he has said so many contradictory things over the years, and what he has said isn’t always what he put in the movies, so i find it best to stick with what is in the movies.

what he said is in the movies though.

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The annoying thing about these 139 pages is being told the same thing after critics clearly express that their reasons for not liking the film are not what boosters say they are.

For example the expectations thing. It’s a no-brainer that there were hopes/expectations, whether about visuals or tone or character development. If you walked in with no hopes/expectations, that would be weird. But the idea that so many fans wanted very specific things and that’s why they didn’t like it is wrong.

Many critics have made that point repeatedly here. If Luke was godly and perfect I would have been dissapointed. If Rey were his daughter, more disappointment. Maybe those could have been done in a way that was palatable but I think those things would be poor storytelling and not where I’d hope the story would go.

As has been said so many times, it’s not just that Luke was a thousand lightyears from hopes, but poorly executed. A lot of us didn’t buy the reasons. It is about judging the story on its own terms.

Many things that bother people didn’t bother me that much (if at all): lightspeed ramming, Yoda lightning, Leia in Spaaace, even Canto Bight to some extent.

Story concept and execution, character development, and humor were poor. That there are supposed to be deep themes if you use the right lens doesn’t save it for me. Okay, cool, I’d say, but it still wasn’t done well.

The arguments for why character development or story were done well are fine and dandy. Probably not convincing after seeing it with our own lying eyes, but okay. The you-only-hated-it because you had specific expectations is wrong and boring.

The blue elephant in the room.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Jay said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Some good points about Jedi training and indoctrination, and I agree with you to a certain extent. However, everything we saw in the first six films indicates that guidance and meditation are required in order to maximize a Jedi’s powers and fully exploit the Force.

The extent of Anakin’s emergent powers in TPM is his ability to see into the future and anticipate things, and only to the point that it makes him appear to have superhuman reflexes. That’s it.

The extent of Luke’s powers in ANH are a few minutes against a remote where he “reaches out” and senses it, and the trench run where he’s told to “let go” and allow the Force to guide him while targeting the exhaust port. That’s all we got from Luke in his first go-round. He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force.

In TLJ, Rey successfully controls a trooper’s mind and holds her own in a lightsaber duel against a much more powerful, albeit injured, opponent, despite never having used a lightsaber before.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Luke failed to extract his X-Wing from the swamp and didn’t complete his training, and while he demonstrated some impressive maneuvers in his fight with his father, Vader toyed with him until he got his hand cut off and was forced to surrender. Whether that was a function of a lack of combat training or lack of proper meditation—probably both—he wasn’t adequately prepared.

After receiving a few lessons, Rey assaulted her teacher and got the drop on him with a lightsaber, then fought Snoke’s guards alongside Kylo and lifted a bunch of boulders like they weren’t even there, thus saving the day.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Not without precedent, but without training?

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

This is the crux of the problem. She’s not a character with an arc; she’s floating along and being handed her abilities by the universe in order to suit the narrative. No work, no progression, no setbacks, no loss. It’s a boring hero’s journey.

He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force ? Did we see the same movie ?!..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKqcfO31is

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

I like your interpretation, except for the fact, that if her desperation of being accepted, of finding a home is her driving force, and she has zero training and experience, she should be extremely vulnerable to manipulation, and temptation. Hence, for her character arc in the ST to work she had to accept Ben Solo’s proposal in my view, and take his hand. In stead RJ seems to waver, and after an extremely interesting dynamic, the best in the film in my view, where black and white become gray for a while, the two characters fall back to their traditional hero and villain roles, and the movie becomes far less interesting, as the Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith battle continues.

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screams in the void said:

Jay said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Some good points about Jedi training and indoctrination, and I agree with you to a certain extent. However, everything we saw in the first six films indicates that guidance and meditation are required in order to maximize a Jedi’s powers and fully exploit the Force.

The extent of Anakin’s emergent powers in TPM is his ability to see into the future and anticipate things, and only to the point that it makes him appear to have superhuman reflexes. That’s it.

The extent of Luke’s powers in ANH are a few minutes against a remote where he “reaches out” and senses it, and the trench run where he’s told to “let go” and allow the Force to guide him while targeting the exhaust port. That’s all we got from Luke in his first go-round. He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force.

In TLJ, Rey successfully controls a trooper’s mind and holds her own in a lightsaber duel against a much more powerful, albeit injured, opponent, despite never having used a lightsaber before.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Luke failed to extract his X-Wing from the swamp and didn’t complete his training, and while he demonstrated some impressive maneuvers in his fight with his father, Vader toyed with him until he got his hand cut off and was forced to surrender. Whether that was a function of a lack of combat training or lack of proper meditation—probably both—he wasn’t adequately prepared.

After receiving a few lessons, Rey assaulted her teacher and got the drop on him with a lightsaber, then fought Snoke’s guards alongside Kylo and lifted a bunch of boulders like they weren’t even there, thus saving the day.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Not without precedent, but without training?

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

This is the crux of the problem. She’s not a character with an arc; she’s floating along and being handed her abilities by the universe in order to suit the narrative. No work, no progression, no setbacks, no loss. It’s a boring hero’s journey.

He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force ? Did we see the same movie ?!..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKqcfO31is

He uses the force in the most abstract sense. The “trust your feelings” sense.
It’s not as if he guides the torpedoes into the exhaust port using telekinesis.

Author
Time

Chewielewis said:

I don’t see any conumdum here. I don’t accept the theory that Palpatine created Anakin, the idea that the force created Anakin in response to Palpatine makes a lot more sense. You could say the same thing about Rey, created by the force in response to Kylo/Snoke. the movie basically tells us this.

Very good point.

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Time

pleasehello said:

screams in the void said:

Jay said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Some good points about Jedi training and indoctrination, and I agree with you to a certain extent. However, everything we saw in the first six films indicates that guidance and meditation are required in order to maximize a Jedi’s powers and fully exploit the Force.

The extent of Anakin’s emergent powers in TPM is his ability to see into the future and anticipate things, and only to the point that it makes him appear to have superhuman reflexes. That’s it.

The extent of Luke’s powers in ANH are a few minutes against a remote where he “reaches out” and senses it, and the trench run where he’s told to “let go” and allow the Force to guide him while targeting the exhaust port. That’s all we got from Luke in his first go-round. He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force.

In TLJ, Rey successfully controls a trooper’s mind and holds her own in a lightsaber duel against a much more powerful, albeit injured, opponent, despite never having used a lightsaber before.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Luke failed to extract his X-Wing from the swamp and didn’t complete his training, and while he demonstrated some impressive maneuvers in his fight with his father, Vader toyed with him until he got his hand cut off and was forced to surrender. Whether that was a function of a lack of combat training or lack of proper meditation—probably both—he wasn’t adequately prepared.

After receiving a few lessons, Rey assaulted her teacher and got the drop on him with a lightsaber, then fought Snoke’s guards alongside Kylo and lifted a bunch of boulders like they weren’t even there, thus saving the day.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Not without precedent, but without training?

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

This is the crux of the problem. She’s not a character with an arc; she’s floating along and being handed her abilities by the universe in order to suit the narrative. No work, no progression, no setbacks, no loss. It’s a boring hero’s journey.

He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force ? Did we see the same movie ?!..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKqcfO31is

He uses the force in the most abstract sense. The “trust your feelings” sense.
It’s not as if he guides the torpedoes into the exhaust port using telekinesis.

"use the Force Luke "

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

Author
Time

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

I totally agree with you. Jedi training isn’t about using the force. It is about training the mind. It is about taking a doubter and making them believe. It is about disipline. It is about following the Jedi code. Sure, they teach force skills along the way, probably a prescribed times. They teach a skill and then teach them how to use it responsibly before teaching the next. There is nothing in the PT or OT to indicate that any of these skills are hard. The dialog between Yoda and Luke during the X-wing scene explains it all. Luke can lift an X-wing if he believes he can. The dialog in the PT indicates that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda, even though Yoda is a master and 870 years older. Strength in the force is not dependent on the length of your training, but on your natural ability and your belief that you can do it.