Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.
yeah because that’s exactly what i meant
Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.
Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.
It becomes less and less fun coming to this part of the forum when it feels like an echo chamber of shutting down criticism of the ST.
Equally frustrating for us on the other side who see people repeatedly saying the same tiring stuff that has little actual connection to the film I know we’ve all seen. I would write out a well reasoned refutation to Collipso’s post, but I’ve already done that many many times, and at this point it’s starting to feel like I’m just talking to a brick wall with some people on here refusing to criticize the movie on its own terms and instead parroting the same old no matter what I say. The echo chamber comment has no basis in reality.
No, what you’re encountering is people who have a different take on the film and an opinion that’s different from yours. Your mistake is in thinking that your interpretation is the “correct” one and that it only takes a bit of logic to get others to agree with your perspective.
I have no desire to convince you that I’m right. I just like arguing about this stuff. Some of us accept that the debate will never end and continue arguing anyway because that’s what angsty nerds do.
If you want to state your opinion (because that’s all any of this is—opinion) without rebuttal, write a blog post and turn the comments off.
It’s not about convincing people I’m “right.” It’s about actually debating the film on its own terms and not making up stuff/imaging things and misplacing focus on irrelevant factors.
I don’t think TLJ is a perfect film by any means. But I’ve yet to see much of anyone on this site actually address the film in a critical manner that makes any sense.
To you. Again, your opinion.
I guess my mistake is going to discuss a SW film on a SW forum and expecting something resembling critiquing the film from its perspective as a film and not just fans getting bent out of shape solely about its place in the canon.
TLJ doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s part of the Star Wars universe. It doesn’t get to exist and be critiqued solely on its own terms. I think this is partly why it’s so divisive. Johnson made something that not everyone thinks fits properly into the universe and some of us aren’t as forgiving of that.
MTFBWY…A
I have no desire to convince you that I’m right. I just like arguing about this stuff. Some of us accept that the debate will never end and continue arguing anyway because that’s what angsty nerds do.
Which is fine…except it’s arguing for fun on one side, and shitposting on the other.
Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.
yeah because that’s exactly what i meant
Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.
Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.
It becomes less and less fun coming to this part of the forum when it feels like an echo chamber of shutting down criticism of the ST.
Equally frustrating for us on the other side who see people repeatedly saying the same tiring stuff that has little actual connection to the film I know we’ve all seen. I would write out a well reasoned refutation to Collipso’s post, but I’ve already done that many many times, and at this point it’s starting to feel like I’m just talking to a brick wall with some people on here refusing to criticize the movie on its own terms and instead parroting the same old no matter what I say. The echo chamber comment has no basis in reality.
No, what you’re encountering is people who have a different take on the film and an opinion that’s different from yours. Your mistake is in thinking that your interpretation is the “correct” one and that it only takes a bit of logic to get others to agree with your perspective.
I have no desire to convince you that I’m right. I just like arguing about this stuff. Some of us accept that the debate will never end and continue arguing anyway because that’s what angsty nerds do.
If you want to state your opinion (because that’s all any of this is—opinion) without rebuttal, write a blog post and turn the comments off.
It’s not about convincing people I’m “right.” It’s about actually debating the film on its own terms and not making up stuff/imaging things and misplacing focus on irrelevant factors.
I don’t think TLJ is a perfect film by any means. But I’ve yet to see much of anyone on this site actually address the film in a critical manner that makes any sense.
To you. Again, your opinion.
Sure.
I guess my mistake is going to discuss a SW film on a SW forum and expecting something resembling critiquing the film from its perspective as a film and not just fans getting bent out of shape solely about its place in the canon.
TLJ doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s part of the Star Wars universe. It doesn’t get to exist and be critiqued solely on its own terms. I think this is partly why it’s so divisive. Johnson made something that not everyone thinks fits properly into the universe and some of us aren’t as forgiving of that.
Well I don’t have anything to “forgive” in that regard anyway, what I think is the issue is a) people being too concerned as to whether the film fits their preconceived notions that they fail to accept the possibility of anything new, and b) people trying to fit squares into round holes when it comes to analyzing new elements in comparison to old ones.
I have no desire to convince you that I’m right. I just like arguing about this stuff. Some of us accept that the debate will never end and continue arguing anyway because that’s what angsty nerds do.
Which is fine…except it’s arguing for fun on one side, and shitposting on the other.
The responses to Collipso’s post contained no arguments. But the “fun” certainly was one-sided.
Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.
yeah because that’s exactly what i meant
Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.
Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.
It becomes less and less fun coming to this part of the forum when it feels like an echo chamber of shutting down criticism of the ST.
Equally frustrating for us on the other side who see people repeatedly saying the same tiring stuff that has little actual connection to the film I know we’ve all seen. I would write out a well reasoned refutation to Collipso’s post, but I’ve already done that many many times, and at this point it’s starting to feel like I’m just talking to a brick wall with some people on here refusing to criticize the movie on its own terms and instead parroting the same old no matter what I say. The echo chamber comment has no basis in reality.
No, what you’re encountering is people who have a different take on the film and an opinion that’s different from yours. Your mistake is in thinking that your interpretation is the “correct” one and that it only takes a bit of logic to get others to agree with your perspective.
I have no desire to convince you that I’m right. I just like arguing about this stuff. Some of us accept that the debate will never end and continue arguing anyway because that’s what angsty nerds do.
If you want to state your opinion (because that’s all any of this is—opinion) without rebuttal, write a blog post and turn the comments off.
It’s not about convincing people I’m “right.” It’s about actually debating the film on its own terms and not making up stuff/imaging things and misplacing focus on irrelevant factors.
I don’t think TLJ is a perfect film by any means. But I’ve yet to see much of anyone on this site actually address the film in a critical manner that makes any sense.
To you. Again, your opinion.
Sure.
I guess my mistake is going to discuss a SW film on a SW forum and expecting something resembling critiquing the film from its perspective as a film and not just fans getting bent out of shape solely about its place in the canon.
TLJ doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s part of the Star Wars universe. It doesn’t get to exist and be critiqued solely on its own terms. I think this is partly why it’s so divisive. Johnson made something that not everyone thinks fits properly into the universe and some of us aren’t as forgiving of that.
Well I don’t have anything to “forgive” in that regard anyway, what I think is the issue is a) people being too concerned as to whether the film fits their preconceived notions that they fail to accept the possibility of anything new, and b) people trying to fit squares into round holes when it comes to analyzing new elements in comparison to old ones.
Sure, there are some people arguing against new things we haven’t seen before, like Leia’s Force powers. I think there are points to be made on either side of that debate, but hating it just because it’s something we haven’t seen before is silly. However, the bulk of the criticism toward TLJ centers around what some fans perceive as shabby treatment of beloved characters and failure to develop new characters properly (which admittedly started in TFA).
I’ve repeatedly expressed admiration for Johnson’s willingness to take risks. I just can’t get past the basic stuff I think he got wrong. For Luke to achieve so much and then end up just another Jedi hermit seems wasteful, and I won’t rehash my issues with Rey, who started as a promising character but is basically a plot device at this point.
MTFBWY…A
Jay, “I don’t understand what you mean” doesn’t require an argument.
Regardless I’ve made my point so I will drop it now.
No, TLJ doesn’t exist in a vacuum. But when looking at it in context of the other films one thing you shouldn’t be doing is reading motives into things you don’t like. Unless you have some insight from something other than the films that the people making these films have some secret message or motive, you are just talking nonsense. As one saying that frequently goes around writers circles goes, an English teachers expounds on the meaning of blue in a particular work and when you ask the author they reply that there is no meaning, they just meant the color blue. When you try to put motives to people without a shred of proof beyond what you imagine you are seeing in the films, you are just making things up out of thin air. That I have a problem with. When you lift up Luke beyond his all to well documented human failings and say TLJ failed because Rian Johnson tapped into that humanity, you are falling prey to creating unrealistic expectations of the character. Rian even played on that in the story. He knew what you were thinking and took the character in a more interesting direction. That you don’t like that is fine, but stop taking your criticism of the direction he went and building this big conspiracy around it. You don’t like it. We get it. But if you come at it from a ridiculous set of expectations, I’m going to have something to say.
I come at this from the writer’s point of view. Writers have to be somewhat free to tell the story that compels them. Rian Johnson is a Star Wars fan. JJ Abrams is a Star Wars fan. It colors what they do with the characters. Their stories fit with the characters as they see them. It is not some great Disney or Lucasfilm conspiracy. It is them taking creative license to tell a story within a framework. I see what they were doing as I saw what Lucas did with the PT. There are some you can’t defend. There is a lot you can. Lucas sucked at dialog and performance choices. He could write a killer story. Abrams is great at crafting characters but is miserable at editing and endings. Rian likes to delve into the character and be more subtle. Their inspirations color what they do. Lucas was trying to create a movie serial (2 hour episodes similar to the old Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon) and he imbibed it with WWII and Samurai influences. I can’t really speak for Abrams, but Rian was open that he watched Twelve O’clock High, Three Outlaw Samurai, and To Catch A Thief to prepare for this movie. The influences show. I think he did it well, but that is not to everyone’s taste. But what he did is very specific and is not some conspiracy. He went against expectations to make a more interesting story not to subvert the Star Wars universe.
And I’m amazed that some on this forum have taken Kylo’s dialog as a direct intention of the makers of the movie. Kylo is the bad guy and like the previous Star Wars villains before him, he is not a reflection of where things are going, but where they shouldn’t go. They are not out to kill the past and destroy Star Wars. They are not trying to reset the Empire/Rebellion conflict. Remember, the ongoing conflicts are really secondary to the real story of the force. Episode I makes a big deal about the Jedi being weak because the force is out of balance. The OT was busy with Vader and the tyranny of the Empire, but it turned into the story of a son redeeming his father. To end the story, they have to deal with Kylo and Rey and bringing balance to the force again. It helps that I’ve been watching the animated series and how they have been focusing on that balance. So a lot of things that seem important in TFA or TLJ, I think are going to prove after IX comes out. Provided, of course, that Abrams isn’t the one who comes up with the ending. I suspect he isn’t. I expect to eventually find out that the broad brush strokes of the story came from Lucas and they have just changed the details laid on top of that. But that is just speculation. I eagerly await what we will see in about 16 months.
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).
I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.
But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.
Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.
I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.
Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.
I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.
False interpretation? There’s no such thing. I have my take, you have yours.
As I’ve said multiple times now, I don’t have a problem with Hermit Luke, just the poorly told history that led him to such a place and Rey’s lack of need for any real training to exhibit Force powers that rival Yoda’s. As Shopping Maul said, I have a problem with its execution. I’m just not sold on this version of Luke based on what we’ve been given to work with and I’m not going to perform the mental gymnastics required to get there.
You pose lots of interesting questions, by the way—none of which were answered in TFA or TLJ. I doubt they’ll be answered in IX either.
It is a false interpretation because that is not how human beings are. At their core, all heroes are human beings, just with something special to make them a hero. Hercules had his failings. Luke has his failings. Rian used those to round out Luke’s actions as told in TFA. Luke had a very good day at the end of ROTJ, but on the day Kylo turned against him it was a very bad day. Luke has a bad history with very bad days and there is no reason why having a great day means he will never act the same again on a bad day. That is just ridiculous. Your interpretation builds Luke up to something he is not. That is part of what the story of TLJ is about. Leia and Rey wanted that heroic Luke who took on the Empire, so did a lot of fans. That Luke would be unrealistic. What we got was an epic illusion. He appeared to be the Luke desired, but he was never that Luke. His human side was showing through and he saw no way to help the galaxy except by staying away. Right or wrong, that was his take. In the end he realized the galaxy needed the legend and they got it, just not as they expected it. Better in some ways. But the Luke from the end of ROTJ was still just a Tatooine farm boy at heart. People don’t change in such a fundamental way. That was why Anakin could be saved. He was fundamentally a lost slaveboy who wanted to save his family. Where is that fundamental difference in Kylo. I think his redemption will take a different direction.
Sorry, still not there with you on this, and never will be.
Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.
yeah because that’s exactly what i meant
Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.
Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.
It’s deliberate and it’s annoying. Just shitposting, really.
Thanks?
No, like Frink said, I really didn’t get collipso’s point. I have taken his posts literally before, only to be told they were sarcasm, and I found myself scratching my head wondering which this was.
I was traveling all day, so only now saw this, and figured I better speak my price, lest you think I really was being pointlessly belligerent.
Back on topic, I agree with yotsuya’s post above.
No, TLJ doesn’t exist in a vacuum. But when looking at it in context of the other films one thing you shouldn’t be doing is reading motives into things you don’t like. Unless you have some insight from something other than the films that the people making these films have some secret message or motive, you are just talking nonsense. As one saying that frequently goes around writers circles goes, an English teachers expounds on the meaning of blue in a particular work and when you ask the author they reply that there is no meaning, they just meant the color blue. When you try to put motives to people without a shred of proof beyond what you imagine you are seeing in the films, you are just making things up out of thin air. That I have a problem with. When you lift up Luke beyond his all to well documented human failings and say TLJ failed because Rian Johnson tapped into that humanity, you are falling prey to creating unrealistic expectations of the character. Rian even played on that in the story. He knew what you were thinking and took the character in a more interesting direction. That you don’t like that is fine, but stop taking your criticism of the direction he went and building this big conspiracy around it. You don’t like it. We get it. But if you come at it from a ridiculous set of expectations, I’m going to have something to say.
Interesting direction? Luke achieved something his masters couldn’t using a technique they didn’t espouse (Luke: “I can’t kill my own father.” Ben: “Then the Emperor has already won.”) and the culmination of his ingenuity and true Jedi-like approach was to become Failed Jedi Hermit #3. It’s the exact opposite of interesting or unique. It’s downright unoriginal. And poorly executed.
What conspiracy are you talking about? How are my expectations ridiculous? I didn’t expect anything going in other than hopefully a good Star Wars movie. I don’t feel I got one.
I come at this from the writer’s point of view. Writers have to be somewhat free to tell the story that compels them. Rian Johnson is a Star Wars fan. JJ Abrams is a Star Wars fan. It colors what they do with the characters. Their stories fit with the characters as they see them. It is not some great Disney or Lucasfilm conspiracy. It is them taking creative license to tell a story within a framework. I see what they were doing as I saw what Lucas did with the PT. There are some you can’t defend. There is a lot you can. Lucas sucked at dialog and performance choices. He could write a killer story. Abrams is great at crafting characters but is miserable at editing and endings. Rian likes to delve into the character and be more subtle. Their inspirations color what they do. Lucas was trying to create a movie serial (2 hour episodes similar to the old Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon) and he imbibed it with WWII and Samurai influences. I can’t really speak for Abrams, but Rian was open that he watched Twelve O’clock High, Three Outlaw Samurai, and To Catch A Thief to prepare for this movie. The influences show.
I would’ve preferred he spent more time watching Star Wars movies instead.
MTFBWY…A
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).
I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.
But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.
Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.
I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.
Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.
I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.
False interpretation? There’s no such thing. I have my take, you have yours.
As I’ve said multiple times now, I don’t have a problem with Hermit Luke, just the poorly told history that led him to such a place and Rey’s lack of need for any real training to exhibit Force powers that rival Yoda’s. As Shopping Maul said, I have a problem with its execution. I’m just not sold on this version of Luke based on what we’ve been given to work with and I’m not going to perform the mental gymnastics required to get there.
You pose lots of interesting questions, by the way—none of which were answered in TFA or TLJ. I doubt they’ll be answered in IX either.
It is a false interpretation because that is not how human beings are. At their core, all heroes are human beings, just with something special to make them a hero. Hercules had his failings. Luke has his failings. Rian used those to round out Luke’s actions as told in TFA. Luke had a very good day at the end of ROTJ, but on the day Kylo turned against him it was a very bad day. Luke has a bad history with very bad days and there is no reason why having a great day means he will never act the same again on a bad day. That is just ridiculous. Your interpretation builds Luke up to something he is not. That is part of what the story of TLJ is about. Leia and Rey wanted that heroic Luke who took on the Empire, so did a lot of fans. That Luke would be unrealistic. What we got was an epic illusion. He appeared to be the Luke desired, but he was never that Luke. His human side was showing through and he saw no way to help the galaxy except by staying away. Right or wrong, that was his take. In the end he realized the galaxy needed the legend and they got it, just not as they expected it. Better in some ways. But the Luke from the end of ROTJ was still just a Tatooine farm boy at heart. People don’t change in such a fundamental way. That was why Anakin could be saved. He was fundamentally a lost slaveboy who wanted to save his family. Where is that fundamental difference in Kylo. I think his redemption will take a different direction.
Sorry, still not there with you on this, and never will be.
Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.
yeah because that’s exactly what i meant
Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.
Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.
It’s deliberate and it’s annoying. Just shitposting, really.
Thanks?
No, like Frink said, I really didn’t get collipso’s point. I have taken his posts literally before, only to be told they were sarcasm, and I found myself scratching my head wondering which this was.
I was traveling all day, so only now saw this, and figured I better speak my price, lest you think I really was being pointlessly belligerent.
Back on topic, I agree with yotsuya’s post above.
i’m sorry i wasn’t clear dahmage. to explain the post you didn’t understand: i was pretty angry with some IRL stuff and gave a more emotional response than usual, and ended up using a super ultra hyperbole. i said rey’s the “best jedi ever”, but what i really meant was that she’s quite capable jedi-wise two movies in already and she had 0 training so far, so i don’t see why IX’s writers would go out of their ways in the final movie of the trilogy to give her some sort of training, given that it’s been pretty clear that it’s not necessary to her.
again, sorry for coming across as unclear to you quite often. you’re one of the posters i enjoy the most here and i’ll try to improve from now on to avoid complications in the future.
I think a lot of the disagreements over this movie have to do with situations in which a subtle shift in one’s interpretation lead to dramatically different readings of the movie at large. For example, when Finn is making his sacrificial run at the laser weapon and Rose saves him, there are two main ways to interpret the scene:
Finn had a shot at destroying the weapon, but Rose valued Finn’s life over the destruction of the weapon. Because of this, Rose’s actions were misguided and would have doomed the Resistance were it not for Luke’s intervention.
Finn had no chance of destroying the weapon, and his sacrifice, while a culmination of his character arc in the film, would have ultimately been a senseless waste. Rose acted rightly.
The trouble with these two interpretations is that they’re both equally valid in terms of what we see on screen. If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order. But he instead implied that it would take a suicide run to destroy the weapon, making Finn’s action heroic from the first interpretation.
This is just one example. This and others (such as Holdo’s leadership, Luke’s murderous moment, etc) rest on the shakiest ground for the audience to interpret in the way the filmmakers intend.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
The problem of course is, that he didn’t really help Rey, and that she still succeeded despite this. She helped herself to some books, when she was fed up with him, after which Luke sort of rediscovered himself, and was able to create a diversion for the rebels. Ultimately though he wasn’t much of a mentor in this film, except to be an example of how not to be. Yoda told Luke how to be a better teacher, he got to stage an illusion, and then he died before he could pass on what he had learned.
This is Star Wars. Since when is dying a barrier to being a teacher and mentor?
Ehm, since ANH. Force Ghosts can provide guidance, but up until TLJ they couldn’t physically interact with their environment.
False. Obi Wan sat on a log in return of the jedi. 😛
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
The problem of course is, that he didn’t really help Rey, and that she still succeeded despite this. She helped herself to some books, when she was fed up with him, after which Luke sort of rediscovered himself, and was able to create a diversion for the rebels. Ultimately though he wasn’t much of a mentor in this film, except to be an example of how not to be. Yoda told Luke how to be a better teacher, he got to stage an illusion, and then he died before he could pass on what he had learned.
This is Star Wars. Since when is dying a barrier to being a teacher and mentor?
Ehm, since ANH. Force Ghosts can provide guidance, but up until TLJ they couldn’t physically interact with their environment.
False. Obi Wan sat on a log in return of the jedi. 😛
Well, I for one feel that scene in ROTJ is one of the weakest in the OT. It includes a pretty contrived reveal, Leia being Luke’s sister, and has a Force ghost sitting on a log having a relaxed conversation with a living person. If things were that easy, why didn’t Obi-Wan train Luke between ANH, and TESB? Luke seemed genuinly surprised to see Obi-Wan on Hoth. It seems to me there are limitations to what extend Force ghost can interact with the real world. In TESB Obi-Wan states he cannot intervere should Luke decide to confront Vader. In TLJ Yoda can suddenly conjure up a storm cloud, and lightning, and he can hit Luke on the head with his cane. This makes Obi-Wan’s statement in TESB seem ridiculous. Why not summon lightning and blast Vader, Palpatine, Kylo, and Snoke into oblivion? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Force ghost for me are sort of like reflections of the original person. They fade in and out of reality, and in my view are only able to sustain this for short periods of time. They cannot intervere with reality, and are thus not able to summon lightning from the sky or touch a living person. If Luke trains Rey in episode IX, it will feel like a cheat to me. Not only is the mystery of Force ghosts ruined, but it essentially makes a Force ghost a living person with a fresh coat of reflective paint, and with the added bonus of being invincible.
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
The problem of course is, that he didn’t really help Rey, and that she still succeeded despite this. She helped herself to some books, when she was fed up with him, after which Luke sort of rediscovered himself, and was able to create a diversion for the rebels. Ultimately though he wasn’t much of a mentor in this film, except to be an example of how not to be. Yoda told Luke how to be a better teacher, he got to stage an illusion, and then he died before he could pass on what he had learned.
This is Star Wars. Since when is dying a barrier to being a teacher and mentor?
Ehm, since ANH. Force Ghosts can provide guidance, but up until TLJ they couldn’t physically interact with their environment.
False. Obi Wan sat on a log in return of the jedi. 😛
And he touched some twines when he entered the scene, right?
Rogue One is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
The hallmark of a corrupt leader: Being surrounded by yes men.
‘The best visual effects in the world will not compensate for a story told badly.’ - V.E.S.
‘Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.’ - SilverWook
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”
TLJ doesn’t hand-hold. Personally I’m not a big fan of on-the-nose dialogue so I tend to think that’s a plus. Whether something fits a different interpretation if you look at it crooked shouldn’t matter if the intended interpretation is clear, which it absolutely is in every commonly disputed case across the movie.
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”
That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon. So, it’s just a case of the movie providing a poor setup imo.
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.
Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.
Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).
No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. Finn obviously feels he has a chance of destroying the weapon. The movie depicts Finn as a man accepting his fate, not a guy just acting like a lunatic out of hatred for the FO, behaviour he never displayed before. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie. Some of the intended sentiments are there, but it has just been poorly executed in my view. The success of such a scene is all in how it is set up. You show Finn acting irrationally in the face of FO early in the film. You set up Poe as the person knowing about the technology, and you have him tell Finn his suicide mission is futile. Then you have Rose rescue Finn before he kills himself in vain.
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.
Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).
No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie.
It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really. Obviously you can turn the table and say I’m just doing the reverse. Difference is the intention of the scene is clearly the way I’m interpreting it. And you can’t just ignore that.
The problem being, and this kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier today, is that no one is criticizing this movie on its own terms, they’re making terms up. The more reasonable critique here would be “they didn’t make it clear enough in this scene that Finn wasn’t going to make it.” Instead people hyperbolize and act as if the alternate interpretation was the intented one, and criticize it on those terms. So the critique goes from the reasoned “clarity problems” to the downright outlandish “Rose is a terrible character because she doomed the Resistance and ruined Finn’s heroism,” which is a critique that (in my opinion) has little relevance to what’s actually going on with the mechanics of this story.
To clarify my own post here, I think NeverarGreat was making an argument on that more reasonable side.
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
The problem of course is, that he didn’t really help Rey, and that she still succeeded despite this. She helped herself to some books, when she was fed up with him, after which Luke sort of rediscovered himself, and was able to create a diversion for the rebels. Ultimately though he wasn’t much of a mentor in this film, except to be an example of how not to be. Yoda told Luke how to be a better teacher, he got to stage an illusion, and then he died before he could pass on what he had learned.
This is Star Wars. Since when is dying a barrier to being a teacher and mentor?
Ehm, since ANH. Force Ghosts can provide guidance, but up until TLJ they couldn’t physically interact with their environment.
False. Obi Wan sat on a log in return of the jedi. 😛
Well, I for one feel that scene in ROTJ is one of the weakest in the OT. It includes a pretty contrived reveal, Leia being Luke’s sister, and has a Force ghost sitting on a log having a relaxed conversation with a living person. If things were that easy, why didn’t Obi-Wan train Luke between ANH, and TESB? Luke seemed genuinly surprised to see Obi-Wan on Hoth. It seems to me there are limitations to what extend Force ghost can interact with the real world. In TESB Obi-Wan states he cannot intervere should Luke decide to confront Vader. In TLJ Yoda can suddenly conjure up a storm cloud, and lightning, and he can hit Luke on the head with his cane. This makes Obi-Wan’s statement in TESB seem ridiculous. Why not summon lightning and blast Vader, Palpatine, Kylo, and Snoke into oblivion? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Force ghost for me are sort of like reflections of the original person. They fade in and out of reality, and in my view are only able to sustain this for short periods of time. They cannot intervere with reality, and are thus not able to summon lightning from the sky or touch a living person. If Luke trains Rey in episode IX, it will feel like a cheat to me. Not only is the mystery of Force ghosts ruined, but it essentially makes a Force ghost a living person with a fresh coat of reflective paint, and with the added bonus of being invincible.
I would argue Dagobah is saturated with the Force. (Same for Ahch-To, only dialed up to 11.) Yoda did not pick a slimy mudhole planet to hide out on at random. We know the cave/ruin where Luke fights a phantom Vader is chock full of Dark Side. Contrast with Hoth, where Luke can barely see Obi-Wan and is delirious to boot.
Obi-Wan only manifests as a voice Luke isn’t even sure he’s hearing in the Death Star battle, so Cloud City would also be difficult for a ghost to show up.
Where were you in '77?
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.
Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).
No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie.
It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really. Obviously you can turn the table and say I’m just doing the reverse. Difference is the intention of the scene is clearly the way I’m interpreting it. And you can’t just ignore that.
The problem being, and this kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier today, is that no one is criticizing this movie on its own terms, they’re making terms up. The more reasonable critique here would be “they didn’t make it clear enough in this scene that Finn wasn’t going to make it.” Instead people hyperbolize and act as if the alternate interpretation was the intented one, and criticize it on those terms. So the critique goes from the reasoned “clarity problems” to the downright outlandish “Rose is a terrible character because she doomed the Resistance and ruined Finn’s heroism,” which is a critique that (in my opinion) has little relevance to what’s actually going on with the mechanics of this story.
To clarify my own post here, I think NeverarGreat was making an argument on that more reasonable side.
I know what the intention of the scene is, and I’m saying exactly what you say, I should say, namely that it is poorly executed. Because of this the scene may be confusing to some, as are the character’s motivations. Just because you and I understand RJ’s intentions doesn’t make it so for everyone else, nor does it imply it is reflected well in the film, or that other interpretations are not possible.
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.
Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).
No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie.
It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really. Obviously you can turn the table and say I’m just doing the reverse. Difference is the intention of the scene is clearly the way I’m interpreting it. And you can’t just ignore that.
The problem being, and this kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier today, is that no one is criticizing this movie on its own terms, they’re making terms up. The more reasonable critique here would be “they didn’t make it clear enough in this scene that Finn wasn’t going to make it.” Instead people hyperbolize and act as if the alternate interpretation was the intented one, and criticize it on those terms. So the critique goes from the reasoned “clarity problems” to the downright outlandish “Rose is a terrible character because she doomed the Resistance and ruined Finn’s heroism,” which is a critique that (in my opinion) has little relevance to what’s actually going on with the mechanics of this story.
To clarify my own post here, I think NeverarGreat was making an argument on that more reasonable side.
I know what the intention of the scene is, and I’m saying exactly what you say, I should say, namely that it is poorly executed. Because of this the scene may be confusing to some, as are the character’s motivations. Just because you and I understand RJ’s intentions doesn’t make it so for everyone else, nor does it imply it is reflected well in the film, or that other interpretations are not possible.
To be clear, I’m not saying you’re not saying that. I was speaking in broader terms.
If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.
“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.
Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).
No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie.
It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really. Obviously you can turn the table and say I’m just doing the reverse. Difference is the intention of the scene is clearly the way I’m interpreting it. And you can’t just ignore that.
The problem being, and this kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier today, is that no one is criticizing this movie on its own terms, they’re making terms up. The more reasonable critique here would be “they didn’t make it clear enough in this scene that Finn wasn’t going to make it.” Instead people hyperbolize and act as if the alternate interpretation was the intented one, and criticize it on those terms. So the critique goes from the reasoned “clarity problems” to the downright outlandish “Rose is a terrible character because she doomed the Resistance and ruined Finn’s heroism,” which is a critique that (in my opinion) has little relevance to what’s actually going on with the mechanics of this story.
To clarify my own post here, I think NeverarGreat was making an argument on that more reasonable side.
I know what the intention of the scene is, and I’m saying exactly what you say, I should say, namely that it is poorly executed. Because of this the scene may be confusing to some, as are the character’s motivations. Just because you and I understand RJ’s intentions doesn’t make it so for everyone else, nor does it imply it is reflected well in the film, or that other interpretations are not possible.
To be clear, I’m not saying you’re not saying that. I was speaking in broader terms.
The problem with the scene for me is, that it appears to be set up as another twist. The scene plays out like the heroic sacrifice trope only for Rose to suddenly appear to stop Finn, and give her save what we love speech. So, the entire preceeding scenes should apparently now be seen in this light, and Finn’s sacrifice thus was probably in vain, even though the movie didn’t show this very clearly early on in my view. I think the scene and Finn and Rose’s arc would have worked better, if Finn’s irrational hatred and behaviour had been set up early in the film. As it is now, a lot of people viewed Finn’s sacrifice for the rebel cause as meaningful, because he was continually running away from the FO in TFA, and didn’t want to get involved beyond helping his friend Rey in this one. Rose thus becomes an agent in taking the meaning out of this interpretation of events, and offers another resolution that subverts expectations, which was not to everyone’s liking.
Finn’s attempted sacrifice was absolutely meaningful to his character. Finn’s hated the FO since the moment we first saw him, that was never his problem; it was always whether he’d run away or stand and fight. Rose’s actions don’t change or take away from that in any way at all. Finn’s heart is now in the right place regardless. Rose is just giving him some clarification and really his next lesson (it’s about more than just standing and fighting).
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.
What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.
This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.
If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.
Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).
I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.
But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.
Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.
I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.
Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.
I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.
False interpretation? There’s no such thing. I have my take, you have yours.
As I’ve said multiple times now, I don’t have a problem with Hermit Luke, just the poorly told history that led him to such a place and Rey’s lack of need for any real training to exhibit Force powers that rival Yoda’s. As Shopping Maul said, I have a problem with its execution. I’m just not sold on this version of Luke based on what we’ve been given to work with and I’m not going to perform the mental gymnastics required to get there.
You pose lots of interesting questions, by the way—none of which were answered in TFA or TLJ. I doubt they’ll be answered in IX either.
It is a false interpretation because that is not how human beings are. At their core, all heroes are human beings, just with something special to make them a hero. Hercules had his failings. Luke has his failings. Rian used those to round out Luke’s actions as told in TFA. Luke had a very good day at the end of ROTJ, but on the day Kylo turned against him it was a very bad day. Luke has a bad history with very bad days and there is no reason why having a great day means he will never act the same again on a bad day. That is just ridiculous. Your interpretation builds Luke up to something he is not. That is part of what the story of TLJ is about. Leia and Rey wanted that heroic Luke who took on the Empire, so did a lot of fans. That Luke would be unrealistic. What we got was an epic illusion. He appeared to be the Luke desired, but he was never that Luke. His human side was showing through and he saw no way to help the galaxy except by staying away. Right or wrong, that was his take. In the end he realized the galaxy needed the legend and they got it, just not as they expected it. Better in some ways. But the Luke from the end of ROTJ was still just a Tatooine farm boy at heart. People don’t change in such a fundamental way. That was why Anakin could be saved. He was fundamentally a lost slaveboy who wanted to save his family. Where is that fundamental difference in Kylo. I think his redemption will take a different direction.
Sorry, still not there with you on this, and never will be.
Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.
yeah because that’s exactly what i meant
Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.
Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.
It’s deliberate and it’s annoying. Just shitposting, really.
Thanks?
No, like Frink said, I really didn’t get collipso’s point. I have taken his posts literally before, only to be told they were sarcasm, and I found myself scratching my head wondering which this was.
I was traveling all day, so only now saw this, and figured I better speak my price, lest you think I really was being pointlessly belligerent.
Back on topic, I agree with yotsuya’s post above.
i’m sorry i wasn’t clear dahmage. to explain the post you didn’t understand: i was pretty angry with some IRL stuff and gave a more emotional response than usual, and ended up using a super ultra hyperbole. i said rey’s the “best jedi ever”, but what i really meant was that she’s quite capable jedi-wise two movies in already and she had 0 training so far, so i don’t see why IX’s writers would go out of their ways in the final movie of the trilogy to give her some sort of training, given that it’s been pretty clear that it’s not necessary to her.
again, sorry for coming across as unclear to you quite often. you’re one of the posters i enjoy the most here and i’ll try to improve from now on to avoid complications in the future.
If we are going to have an end to the Skywalker Saga and balance the force, Rey must reach a point no Jedi before has reached and she can only reach it because she has not been properly trained. Luke sees the Jedi did something wrong and he needs to help Rey see it. But Luke was trained, by Ben, Yoda, and then what he could find. He became a classic Jedi and it could not help him save his nephew from falling. There was something missing in the Jedi lore that Luke, Rey, and Kylo have to find to complete the story. Rey’s ability with the force is meaningless. She is a natural. They exist in every field. What Rey needs is not trailing in force abilities, but to find wisdom and purpose and a way to balance the force long term. She needs a teacher and mentor, not to learn how to levitate rocks, but to create a new Jedi order that fixes the failings of the Old Republic Jedi order.