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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 133

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Just completed my fourth viewing on Blu-ray. The movie really starts to grow on me.

One thing i noticed about the Canto Bight subplot. It wasn’t completely unnecessary. Because DJ got captured along with Finn & Rose he made a deal with the First Order. He showed them how to spot the cloaked Resistance ships on their way to Crait. That forces Holdo to weaponize hyperspace.

Rogue One is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
The hallmark of a corrupt leader: Being surrounded by yes men.
‘The best visual effects in the world will not compensate for a story told badly.’ - V.E.S.
‘Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.’ - SilverWook

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Just wanted to chime in and say I’ve really enjoyed reading the discussion Dre, Dom, Nev, yotsuya, Collipso, Anchorhead and others have been having the past few days. I know you all have pretty strong opinions on the Sequel Trilogy, but it has been nice to read such a civil discussion debating both sides. I feel like the fandom is so crazy right now, and I know heated arguments here aren’t uncommon either, but it’s refreshing to see how mature you all are and actually just talking about the films rather than resorting to personal attacks like a lot of chats end up turning into.

It’s been a great read so far, and I definitely can understand both sides.

I’m not going to get into it myself too much, but from hearing everyone’s points recently and just absorbing discussions since TLJ released, I do have one thought I wanted to share.

I think the story the ST has been telling is appropriate and fits within the saga, but I also think that maybe the new films have been lacking some clarity, maybe? For example, I know people have been going back and forth on the political context of the new films, and I think the unclear power dynamics between the different factions adds to the disorientation a lot of fans feel with this new trilogy. While I agree with the more defending side, I think the various interpretations demonstrates something is being lost in translation.

It’s definitely something I think the opening crawls, for example, could have really handled better, which is why I enjoy reading Nev’s determined attempts at improving them.

While I don’t think the new films are bad, I do agree some strokes/details aren’t perfect, but I think that’s the great thing about fan editing and its ability to be proactive, testable criticism.

I know the debates will continue, just like how people are still arguing over the prequels, and it’s almost been 20 years since Episode 1 came out. But I do think the new movies will eventually grow on people who currently have issues with them, just like many have with the prequels, and those who love the new movies can find common ground and agree on some of the issues the new movies do have. I think this will especially be the case once there will be even newer Star Wars movies for all of us to argue over! Haha, it’s a vicious cycle I guess, but clearly because we all love Star Wars. Like two parents arguing over how to raise a child.

Anyway, just wanted to drop by and say I appreciate how civil you guys are being with each other and hope you’ll continue these kinds of conversations with the same level-headedness in the future. It’s a pleasure to read!

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 (Edited)

The latest bit of fansanity™ is a youtube video accusing Rian of plagiarizing John Carpenter’s Escape From L.A. I kid you not.

I also didn’t get the memo where EFLA is suddenly regarded as top tier Carpenter now.

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SilverWook said:

The latest bit of fansanity™ is a youtube video accusing Rian of plagiarizing John Carpenter’s Escape From L.A. I kid you not.

I also didn’t get the memo where EFLA is suddenly regarded as top tier Carpenter now.

Yeah, saw that one too. It’s quite similar, but even if RJ was inspired by EFLA (for all we know, it might be his favourite movie), I don’t really see the problem. The setting is obviously completely different, and if anything RJ improved on the EFLA version.

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As a fan of John Carpenter movies I can say… Escape from LA is utter crap. Nobody would steal from it.

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There is a fanedit over at FE that’s attempting to make something good out of it though.

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 (Edited)

Luke’s final flashback in this movie is one of the best scenes in Star Wars. The intensity of the acting and all of the emotion!

Some people think that the scene sucks, and I just can’t understand it!

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Yeah, but people say ‘Luke would never do that, the scene betrays his character!’ and I don’t agree with them.

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snooker said:

Yeah, but people say ‘Luke would never do that, the scene betrays his character!’ and I don’t agree with them.

I don’t disagree with the direction they took, but it could have been better handled.

What if Luke had looked into Kylo’s future and explicitly seen him kill Han? Then you have the man who couldn’t kill his evil father facing the man who will kill his heroic father (and led to the destruction of the Republic). If they had focused on that drama I think it would have improved both Han’s and Luke’s stories in this trilogy.

It’s a shame that they muddled that message by making Luke surprised that Han was gone.

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The Force seems kind of stingy about revealing specific details like that though. Luke could see his friends suffering at Cloud City, but even Yoda couldn’t say if they were going to die or not.

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SilverWook said:

The Force seems kind of stingy about revealing specific details like that though. Luke could see his friends suffering at Cloud City, but even Yoda couldn’t say if they were going to die or not.

which is why it’s out of character for luke to do what he did

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A split second crisis of conscience is out of character? We all think about doing things we never act upon. Luke is powerful, but he isn’t perfect.
There is a presumption Luke is the exact same person he was at the end of the OT. He isn’t. He’s had to bear the weight of the fate of the galaxy and trying to live up to being a legendary hero for three decades, and he choked at a crucial moment.

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NeverarGreat said:

snooker said:

Yeah, but people say ‘Luke would never do that, the scene betrays his character!’ and I don’t agree with them.

I don’t disagree with the direction they took, but it could have been better handled.

What if Luke had looked into Kylo’s future and explicitly seen him kill Han? Then you have the man who couldn’t kill his evil father facing the man who will kill his heroic father (and led to the destruction of the Republic). If they had focused on that drama I think it would have improved both Han’s and Luke’s stories in this trilogy.

It’s a shame that they muddled that message by making Luke surprised that Han was gone.

I’m trying to imagine Yoda standing over a sleeping Luke in ESB, knowing full well in Luke’s rush to face Vader he could be turned and become a powerful enemy, and being so disturbed at the thought of his pupil joining his father on the Dark Side, he brandishes his lightsaber with the intention—no matter how fleeting—of murdering him.

Luke proved to himself and Vader in ROTJ that there is always hope. The idea that he’d even contemplate murdering a sleeping student who wasn’t yet guilty of any crime—knowing that the future is “always in motion”—doesn’t jibe. Even Luke reading Kylo’s thoughts while he sleeps is creepy.

What happened to Luke in the intervening years to turn him into someone who’d contemplate that? We don’t know, because the sequels don’t do a great job of showing us.

Edit: I just watched the scene again and I’m so annoyed at how Luke completely forgets everything he learned about internal conflict by saving his father and Rey spoon-feeds this wisdom to him like she’s the Jedi master. Ugh.

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Yoda is practically perfect in every way though. Even though he screwed up big time with that Anakin kid. 😉

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Jay said:

Edit: I just watched the scene again and I’m so annoyed at how Luke completely forgets everything he learned about internal conflict by saving his father and Rey spoon-feeds this wisdom to him like she’s the Jedi master. Ugh.

I’ve found it helpful to look at Kylo and Rey as being written to represent Star Wars fans. Rey represents those who are avid and hopeful fans of the franchise, who know everything about the Jedi and what the ‘real’ Luke would do. This is why she’s so disappointed in what he’s become.

Kylo represents the fan who is tired of the whole dichotomy between good and evil, rebels and Empire, and wants to make the franchise about something else.

This is a big reason why it’s so hard to take these movies seriously - the stories aren’t written as a natural progression of events but more as a meta commentary on Star Wars itself.

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Interesting interpretation, but is there anything that’s been said by the filmmakers that is along those lines?

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NeverarGreat said:

Jay said:

Edit: I just watched the scene again and I’m so annoyed at how Luke completely forgets everything he learned about internal conflict by saving his father and Rey spoon-feeds this wisdom to him like she’s the Jedi master. Ugh.

I’ve found it helpful to look at Kylo and Rey as being written to represent Star Wars fans. Rey represents those who are avid and hopeful fans of the franchise, who know everything about the Jedi and what the ‘real’ Luke would do. This is why she’s so disappointed in what he’s become.

Kylo represents the fan who is tired of the whole dichotomy between good and evil, rebels and Empire, and wants to make the franchise about something else.

This is a big reason why it’s so hard to take these movies seriously - the stories aren’t written as a natural progression of events but more as a meta commentary on Star Wars itself.

I’d just like some good stories and well-developed characters, please. And maybe don’t sacrifice the arc of characters we love in order to make some arthouse meta commentary.

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SilverWook said:

Interesting interpretation, but is there anything that’s been said by the filmmakers that is along those lines?

I don’t think so. But this interpretation was around before TLJ’s release, and with TLJ I think the meta commentary has grown beyond these two characters, and audience expectation (or its subversion) now drives the story itself.

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Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

SilverWook said:

Interesting interpretation, but is there anything that’s been said by the filmmakers that is along those lines?

I don’t think so. But this interpretation was around before TLJ’s release, and with TLJ I think the meta commentary has grown beyond these two characters, and audience expectation (or its subversion) now drives the story itself.

i am not convinced it drives the story (but do believe it is a factor, just not a driving one). audience expectation certainly drives our interpretations.

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The audience may not have had as many expectations if there weren’t a lot of familiar scenarios. So when there’s a story with a lot of familiar elements, then the two options are to either go with the familiar plot and turn it into a rehash or try to subvert audience expectations but risk turning it into an unsatisfying story.

Of course, if they opted to start with something completely different, then that carries its own risk. It’s tough to find that balance.

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The problem is that certain audience members just expected to have their fan service brain centres massaged again, since that’s what a lot of what TFA and Rogue One offered. SW was back, and it was important. They were important as fans. But since TLJ didn’t end with Luke killing 400 dudes with a green lightsaber nobody cheered.

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Mocata said:

The problem is that certain audience members just expected to have their fan service brain centres massaged again, since that’s what a lot of what TFA and Rogue One offered. SW was back, and it was important. They were important as fans. But since TLJ didn’t end with Luke killing 400 dudes with a green lightsaber nobody cheered.

I haven’t seen a lot of criticisms suggesting Luke should’ve been a one-Jedi army; he wasn’t in the OT (although he came close in the escape from Jabba’s barge).

TFA and TLJ are both mediocre Star Wars movies (in my opinion) for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with fan service (whether it’s too much in the former or a complete lack of in the latter).

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